Mormon Church has $100 BILLION

[Watchmen]

No one needs to pay tithing to get baptized.

In order to get baptized a person needs to show a willingness to keep the standards set by God.

If someone says that they are not willing to keep the Law of Chastity as it was described to them - they will not get baptized - because they don't want to be members of His Church.

Faithful members of His Church have a willingness to keep the Law of Chastity.

If they say that they are willing to keep the Law of Chastity - they can get baptized - because they have a willingness to live by His standards.

If they mess up and and commit fornication after baptism - they remain baptized members of the Church - but they will be encouraged to repent and to keep the Law of Chastity.

If someone says that they are not willing to keep the Word of Wisdom as it was described to them - they will not get baptized - because they don't want to be members of His Church.

Faithful members of His Church have a willingness to keep the Word of Wisdom.

If they say that they are willing to keep the Word of Wisdom - they can get baptized - because they have a willingness to live by His standards.

If they mess up and smoke a cigarette after baptism - they remain baptized members of the Church - but they will be encouraged to repent and to keep the Word of Wisdom.

If someone says that they are not willing to keep the Sabbath Day holy as it was described to them - they will not get baptized - because they don't want to be members of His Church.

Faithful members of His Church have a willingness to keep the Sabbath Day holy.

If they say that they are willing to keep the Sabbath Day holy - they can get baptized - because they have a willingness to live by His standards.

If they mess up and stop coming to Church or rendering service after baptism - they remain baptized members of the Church - but they will be encouraged to repent and to keep the Sabbath Day holy.

If someone says that they are not willing to pay their tithes as it was described to them - they will not get baptized - because they don't want to be members of His Church.

Faithful members of His Church have a willingness to pay their tithes.

If they say that they are willing to pay their tithes - they can get baptized - because they have a willingness to live by His standards.

If they never once pay any tithing after baptism - they remain baptized members of the Church - but they will be encouraged to repent and to pay their tithes.

These are all standards that God has asked faithful members of His Church to keep.

All they need in order to join His Church is a willingness to follow His standards.

If they have no willingness to do as He says - then they obviously do not wish to be members of His Church - so nothing is denied them.

If they have a willingness to do as He says - but are unable to follow through after being baptized - they remain members of His Church - but they will be encouraged to repent and do as He commands.

God commands that members of His Church pay tithes.

I understand that you do not like this fact - but you have yet to provide any reason to believe that it is immoral for God to ask members of His Church to pay tithes.

You also have yet to provide any reason to believe that it is immoral for God's church to have $100 billion.

if they don’t commit to paying they don’t get baptized.

after becoming a member of they don’t pay they get counseled to do so.

they cannot receive their endowment without paying. they can’t be sealed. the crowning achievements of Mormonism cannot be accomplished without paying the $100 Billion organization. Their spiritual progress depends on paying one of the richest organizations in the world and that progress is withheld if they don’t.

it’s immoral per se.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

if they don’t commit to paying they don’t get baptized.

You are being dishonest.

The Baptism Interview Question clearly asks if the investigator is "willing" to live up to certain Gospel standards.

Having a willingness to do something is a world's difference from committing to do something.

For example - as a gun owner and the protector of my family I am willing to shoot and kill an intruder who enters my home.

That's a lot different from someone who claims that they are committed to shooting and killing an intruder who enters their home.

I may be willing to do it - but I am not committed to doing it. It's a world's difference.

after becoming a member of they don’t pay they get counseled to do so.

This is true of any member of the Church who fails to live up to the Gospel standards they claimed that they were willing to live by.

Once a person becomes a baptized member of the Church - the Church is responsible for their spiritual well-being to a certain degree.

they cannot receive their endowment without paying. they can’t be sealed. the crowning achievements of Mormonism cannot be accomplished without paying the $100 Billion organization.

Members can be denied access to the Temple if they refuse to live up to Gospel standards.

This includes tithing and you have yet to provide any reason to believe that that is immoral.

Their spiritual progress depends on paying one of the richest organizations in the world and that progress is withheld if they don’t.

This is inaccurate.

No one is entitled to Temple blessings. Therefore - if they fail to live up to Gospel standards - their being refused access to the Temple is not withholding anything from them.

Their spiritual progress depends on their humility, faith and willingness to do what God has commanded them to do.

If they are unwilling to do what God asks of them - then He is under no obligation to extend any blessings to them.

I know you ignore it when I reference or quote from the Standard Works - but Doctrine and Covenants 82:10 reads,

"I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

God has given us these Gospel standards and if you don't want to live up to them - you retard your own spiritual progress.

it’s immoral per se.

You've given no reason to assume this.

 

[Watchmen]

You are being dishonest.

The Baptism Interview Question clearly asks if the investigator is "willing" to live up to certain Gospel standards.

Having a willingness to do something is a world's difference from committing to do something.

For example - as a gun owner and the protector of my family I am willing to shoot and kill an intruder who enters my home.

That's a lot different from someone who claims that they are committed to shooting and killing an intruder who enters their home.

I may be willing to do it - but I am not committed to doing it. It's a world's difference.

This is true of any member of the Church who fails to live up to the Gospel standards they claimed that they were willing to live by.

Once a person becomes a baptized member of the Church - the Church is responsible for them to a certain degree.

Members can be denied access to the Temple if they refuse to live up to Gospel standards.

This includes tithing and you have yet to provide any reason to believe that that is immoral.

This is inaccurate.

No one is entitled to Temple blessings. Therefore - if they fail to live up to Gospel standards - their being refused access to the Temple is not withholding anything from them.

Their spiritual progress depends on their humility, faith and willingness to do what God has commanded them to do.

If they are unwilling to do what God asks of them - then He is under no obligation to extend any blessings to them.

I know you ignore it when I reference or quote from the Standard Works - but Doctrine and Covenants 82:10 reads,

"I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

God has given us these Gospel standards and if you don't want to live up to them - you retard your own spiritual progress.

You've given no reason to assume this.

You sound like a broken record. My explanation is the simple one and the simple story is usually the right one.

Let me ask you a simple question. If someone says he is not “willing” (I’ll use your word) to pay tithing, can he be baptized?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

You sound like a broken record. My explanation is the simple one and the simple story is usually the right one.

Let me ask you a simple question. If someone says he is not “willing” (I’ll use your word) to pay tithing, can he be baptized?

Yeah - I'm the broken record. (Note: Sarcasm)

If you had taken the time to actually read my posts you'd realize that I have already answered this question.

You - on the other hand - have failed to sufficiently answer my question - despite the numerous times I've asked.

Why is the paying of tithes immoral?

So far all you have said is that it is because you think it is and because the Church has $100 billion.

You fail to answer my question about if you would still consider the paying of tithes immoral if the Church were penniless - so I don't know if your concerns hinge on the idea of tithing itself or if its because the Church has a lot of money.

I'm starting to think that your issue is due to you either believing that there is no God or that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false church.

Either of those issues - however - do not provide any reason to believe that the paying of tithes is immoral.

 

[Watchmen]

Yeah - I'm the broken record. (Note: Sarcasm)

If you had taken the time to actually read my posts you'd realize that I have already answered this question.

You - on the other hand - have failed to sufficiently answer my question - despite the numerous times I've asked.

Why is the paying of tithes immoral?

So far all you have said is that it is because you think it is and because the Church has $100 billion.

You fail to answer my question about if you would still consider the paying of tithes immoral if the Church were penniless - so I don't know if your concerns hinge on the idea of tithing itself or if its because the Church has a lot of money.

I'm starting to think that your issue is due to you either believing that there is no God or that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false church.

Either of those issues - however - do not provide any reason to believe that the paying of tithes is immoral.

Please provide a simple answer to a simple question. It’s yes or no. If someone says he is not willing to pay tithing, can he be baptized?

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Please provide a simple answer to a simple question. It’s yes or no. If someone says he is not willing to pay tithing, can he be baptized?

Unlike you - I already answered your question.

You are free to go back and find your answer.

Why do you expect me to keep answering your questions while you avoid answering mine?

Not much of a conversation.

Does anyone join the Church who is unwilling to pay tithes?

 

[Watchmen]

Unlike you - I already answered your question.

You are free to go back and find your answer.

Why do you expect me to keep answering your questions while you avoid answering mine?

Not much of a conversation.

Does anyone join the Church who is unwilling to pay tithes?

Let’s cut through the bull**** and keep it simple. Can you defend your faith? Give the simple answer to the simple question.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Let’s cut through the bull**** and keep it simple. Can you defend your faith? Give the simple answer to the simple question.

Defend my faith? From what?

All you have done is claimed that the Church - or rather God - asking members to pay tithing is immoral for some reason.

You refuse to answer my questions and you ignore quotes from the Standard Works - so I have yet to determine that reason.

By the way - you being unwilling or unable to answer my questions is indicative of you knowing that your claims are weak.

You ignoring what the Standard Works say on the matter is also proof of that.

I have not been "defending my faith" at all in this thread - because I don't believe it is under attack.

I've simply been trying to inform the uninformed. Teach truth to the ignorant.

You throwing a tantrum is no threat to me or my faith.

 

[Watchmen]

Defend my faith? From what?

All you have done is claimed that the Church - or rather God - asking members to pay tithing is immoral for some reason.

You refuse to answer my questions and you ignore quotes from the Standard Works - so I have yet to determine that reason.

By the way - you being unwilling or unable to answer my questions is indicative of you knowing that your claims are weak.

You ignoring what the Standard Works say on the matter is also proof of that.

I have not been "defending my faith" at all in this thread - because I don't believe it is under attack.

I've simply been trying to inform the uninformed. Teach truth to the ignorant.

You throwing a tantrum is no threat to me or my faith.

I’ve thrown no tantrum. I’ve asked a simple question and you are unable to provide a simple answer. Good day, sir.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I’ve thrown no tantrum. I’ve asked a simple question and you are unable to provide a simple answer. Good day, sir.

This entire thread has been a tantrum.

And I told you repeatedly that I had already answered that question.

Your inability or unwillingness to read my posts is not my fault.

I suppose it is hard to read everything while you're having your tantrum.

 

[Watchmen]

This entire thread has been a tantrum.

And I told you repeatedly that I had already answered that question.

Your inability or unwillingness to read my posts is not my fault.

I suppose it is hard to read everything while you're having your tantrum.

Good day, sir. If you choose to give a simple answer to my simple question then I’d be happy to discuss further.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Good day, sir. If you choose to give a simple answer to my simple question then I’d be happy to discuss further.

You have yet to provide any reason to believe that the paying of tithes is immoral.

I already answered your question - but you apparently don't read my posts.

You ignore relevant quotes from the Standard Works and refuse to answer my questions.

At what point was this ever a "discussion"?

You're just throwing a tantrum.

 

[Watchmen]

You have yet to provide any reason to believe that the paying of tithes is immoral.

I already answered your question - but you apparently don't read my posts.

You ignore relevant quotes from the Standard Works and refuse to answer my questions.

At what point was this ever a "discussion"?

You're just throwing a tantrum.

I didn’t say paying tithing is immoral. If you choose to give a simple answer to my simple question then I’d be happy to discuss further. Good day.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I didn’t say paying tithing is immoral. If you choose to give a simple answer to my simple question then I’d be happy to discuss further. Good day.

You see how your ignoring the Standard Works and refusing to answer questions left me confused about your argument?

I have already answered that question.

 

[Watchmen]

You see how your ignoring the Standard Works and refusing to answer questions left me confused about your argument?

I have already answered that question.

I guess you don’t know what “per se” means.

And those who review this thread will quickly realize the Mormon Church immorally requires prospective members to express a willingness to pay compulsory tithing before joining the church, and that current members are denied participating in the endowment - one of the Church’s most sacred ordinances, which is necessary for exaltation - if they refuse to pay tithing. In other words, spiritual progression is aborted for anyone unwilling to pay a 10% tax to a $100 BILLION organization. If you don’t see the immorality of that I can’t help you.

Now, if you’d like to discuss, provide a simple answer to this simple question: If someone says he is unwilling to pay tithing can he be baptized?

Another simple question: Can someone who is unwilling to pay tithing receive the endowment?

Good day.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I guess you don’t know what “per se” means.

I do - but you don't seem to.

"Per se" means "by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves" or "being such inherently, clearly, or as a matter of law".

A common synonym for "per se" is "intrinsically".

You said in Post #233, "I didn’t say paying tithing is immoral."

Yet in post #221 you said, "it’s immoral per se." "It" was a reference to tithing.

You said that tithing is "inherently" or "intrinsically" immoral in Post #221 then you said that you didn't make that claim in Post #233.

You either did not know what "per se" meant or you are confused about your own position.

Either way - if you'd answer my questions - your position would have been made more clear.

So - is your position that tithing is immoral or not?

Are you going to ignore that question like you have all my other questions?

And those who review this thread will quickly realize the Mormon Church immorally requires prospective members to express a willingness to pay compulsory tithing before joining the church, and that current members are denied participating in the endowment - one of the Church’s most sacred ordinances, which is necessary for exaltation - if they refuse to pay tithing.

You have yet to provide any reason to believe that the paying of tithes is immoral.

Do you not understand the definition of the word "compulsory" either?

Every single person who investigates the Church knows that members are encouraged to pay tithing and that they would need to pay tithes to go to the Temple.

Every single person that went to the ancient Temple in Jerusalem also had to provide some kind of offering or tribute in order to participate in Temple ordinances.

God commands that His Church pay tithes. If you don't believe that - or don't like it - don't join the Church. It's that simple.

In other words, spiritual progression is aborted for anyone unwilling to pay a 10% tax to a $100 BILLION organization.

That is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If you stopped to read the references from the Standard Works - you would know that.

Tithing is not a "tax" - because it is not mandatory. No one is forced to pay it.

There is nothing immoral about denying someone something they have not earned.

However much money the Church has is irrelevant to the fact that God has commanded the members of His Church to pay tithes.

We would pay tithes if the Church were penniless or rich - and doing either would not be immoral.

We would pay because we believe that God has asked us to.

If you don’t see the immorality of that I can’t help you.

You are misrepresenting our doctrine and you have not provided any reason to believe it is immoral.

I can't help you.

Now, if you’d like to discuss, provide a simple answer to this simple question: If someone says he is unwilling to pay tithing can he be baptized?

I have already answered this question and since you don't read my posts or answer my questions - this is not a discussion.

I'm just trying to talk you out of your tantrum.

Another simple question: Can someone who is unwilling to pay tithing receive the endowment?

I have already answered this question as well.

I have no reason to continue here if you aren't reading my posts.

 

[Watchmen]

I do - but you don't seem to.

"Per se" means "by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves" or "being such inherently, clearly, or as a matter of law".

A common synonym for "per se" is "intrinsically".

You said in Post #233, "I didn’t say paying tithing is immoral."

Yet in post #221 you said, "it’s immoral per se." "It" was a reference to tithing.

You said that tithing is "inherently" or "intrinsically" immoral in Post #221 then you said that you didn't make that claim in Post #233.

You either did not know what "per se" meant or you are confused about your own position.

Either way - if you'd answer my questions - your position would have been made more clear.

So - is your position that tithing is immoral or not?

Are you going to ignore that question like you have all my other questions?

You have yet to provide any reason to believe that the paying of tithes is immoral.

Do you not understand the definition of the word "compulsory" either?

Every single person who investigates the Church knows that members are encouraged to pay tithing and that they would need to pay tithes to go to the Temple.

Every single person that went to the ancient Temple in Jerusalem also had to provide some kind of offering or tribute in order to participate in Temple ordinances.

God commands that His Church pay tithes. If you don't believe that - or don't like it - don't join the Church. It's that simple.

That is not the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If you stopped to read the references from the Standard Works - you would know that.

Tithing is not a "tax" - because it is not mandatory. No one is forced to pay it.

There is nothing immoral about denying someone something they have not earned.

However much money the Church has is irrelevant to the fact that God has commanded the members of His Church to pay tithes.

We would pay tithes if the Church were penniless or rich - and doing either would not be immoral.

We would pay because we believe that God has asked us to.

You are misrepresenting our doctrine and you have not provided any reason to believe it is immoral.

I can't help you.

I have already answered this question and since you don't read my posts or answer my questions - this is not a discussion.

I'm just trying to talk you out of your tantrum.

I have already answered this question as well.

I have no reason to continue here if you aren't reading my posts.

Another rant? Looks like you’re incapable of providing a simple answer to a simple question. Those who read this will see right through your Mormon propaganda and agree with my position. If you’d like to continue the discussion then answer my question with a “yes”!or “no” and we’ll go from there. Cheerio.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Another rant? Looks like you’re incapable of providing a simple answer to a simple question. Those who read this will see right through your Mormon propaganda and agree with my position. If you’d like to continue the discussion then answer my question with a “yes”!or “no” and we’ll go from there. Cheerio.

You're issuing an ultimatum after being unable to support your claims and running away from relevant questions and sources?

You obviously missed the, "When to issue an ultimatum" lesson in school.

You have no facts. You have no power. You have no argument.

This means I have no incentive to give in to your demands.

Besides - I already answered that question - so there really is no reason to indulge you in your tantrum.

Frosted Flakes.

 

[Watchmen]

You're issuing an ultimatum after being unable to support your claims and running away from relevant questions and sources?

You obviously missed the, "When to issue an ultimatum" lesson in school.

You have no facts. You have no power. You have no argument.

This means I have no incentive to give in to your demands.

Besides - I already answered that question - so there really is no reason to indulge you in your tantrum.

Frosted Flakes.

I explained that threatening to withholding spiritual blessings and promises without payment is immoral on its face. Done.

Your turn. I think you’re refusing because you’re scared of the answer. You know it supports my argument.

bye

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I explained that threatening to withholding spiritual blessings and promises without payment is immoral on its face. Done.

So - unlike what you claimed in Post #233 - you are now claiming that tithing is immoral.

Flip and flop?

Would you feel the same about other Gospel standards? Would you say for example,

"Threatening to withhold spiritual blessings and promises from someone because they commit fornication is immoral on its face."

Are you of the mind-set that "spiritual blessings and promises" are entitlements? That people are guaranteed these things regardless of what they do or don't do?

Prepare to be disappointed if that is the case.

Or do you believe it is immoral just because it involves money?

Do you believe that the Priests and Levites were immoral for demanding tributes and offerings for participation in Temple ordinances anciently?

Would you consider it immoral if the Church were penniless?

You can't seem to understand that the paying of tithes is less about the money and more about humility, faith and obedience to God's commands.

I mean - if it were all about the money - then members who struggle with tithing would be expected to "back pay" what they failed to give.

However - when leaders meet with those who are struggling with tithing they encourage them to pay starting right then and to forget about the past.

I struggled at one point and my bishop didn't ask me, "How much do you owe us?" He simply told me to start paying again.

God has set the standards for participation in ordinances.

If you don't live up to His standards (which are really low considering that the Church will one day be living the Law of Consecration) - then you did not earn those spiritual blessings and promises.

End of story.

Your turn. I think you’re refusing because you’re scared of the answer.

I haven't refused anything.

As I have been saying - I already answered that question.

If you have been reading my posts you would have seen that.

I'll throw you a bone though. It's in Post #220.

You know it supports my argument.

You have shared an opinion - not an argument.

Arguments are claims backed up with evidence.

All you have done is share your opinion that tithing is immoral - while ignoring the evidence I shared from the Standards Works that disagree with that opinion and my questions that prove that you have no argument.