Moderate Muslims' beliefs about homosexuality

[Revoltingest]

Religions were born with people and there are even genes in the body that favour religion....

Yet all these different religions disagree with each other to varying degrees.
Moreover, all their sacred books are written by men.
(I wonder why it's not women?)
So the "truth" all boils down to "some guy said so".

.....but homosexuality is against the normal and was fabricated by man as it counters the physical and psychological nature of humans.

I don't see why it can't be one version of what's normal, just as people great variation in personalities & intelligence.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Doesn't something like this assert the presence of a designer? Doesn't this also prove that the designer intended to design it in a certain way for a deliberate reason? This is the concept of complementarity.

Definitely not.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Tis an interesting & ironic statement. All the various religions which preach against homosexuality were invented by man.
Yet homosexuality appears to be an inherent trait which needs no invention at all. By reasoning I've seen here, that would
make religion the unnatural abomination.

Religion is so simple: God and manners. It's not so sophisticated to be man-made and it's totally natural and usual. The problem lies when people start to change their religion with time and add to it more myths that it'd. I also stated before that my religion carries things more objective that subjective, I mean materialistic evidence.

COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BIRDS


COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BIRDS | Quran Miracles

FEMALE HONEYBEE, BUILDER OF HER OWN CELL

FEMALE HONEYBEE, BUILDER OF HER OWN CELL | Quran Miracles


SOIL THAT VIBRATES AND SWELLS AS IT COMES TO LIFE

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/soil-that-vibrates-and-swells-as-it-comes-to-life-2/

FEMALE ANT AND COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ANIMALS

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/female-ant-and-communication-between-animals/

THE EARTH DOES ROTATE EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT CONSCIOUS OF IT

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/08/the-earth-does-rotate-even-though-we-are-not-conscious-of-it/

IDENTITY ON FINGER TIPS


IDENTITY ON FINGER TIPS | Quran Miracles

 

[Revoltingest]

Religion is so simple: God and manners. It's not so sophisticated to be man-made and it's totally natural and usual. The problem lies when people start to change their religion with time and add to it more myths that it'd. I also stated before that my religion carries things more objective that subjective, I mean materialistic evidence.

You subsequent list shows that nature has many great wonders.
But that does not validate any sacred book.

 

[Agnostic75]

Religion is so simple: God and manners. It's not so sophisticated to be man-made and it's totally natural and usual. The problem lies when people start to change their religion with time and add to it more myths that it'd. I also stated before that my religion carries things more objective that subjective, I mean materialistic evidence.

COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BIRDS


COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BIRDS | Quran Miracles

FEMALE HONEYBEE, BUILDER OF HER OWN CELL

FEMALE HONEYBEE, BUILDER OF HER OWN CELL | Quran Miracles


SOIL THAT VIBRATES AND SWELLS AS IT COMES TO LIFE

SOIL THAT VIBRATES AND SWELLS AS IT COMES TO LIFE | Quran Miracles

FEMALE ANT AND COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ANIMALS

FEMALE ANT AND COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ANIMALS | Quran Miracles

THE EARTH DOES ROTATE EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT CONSCIOUS OF IT

THE EARTH DOES ROTATE | Quran Miracles

IDENTITY ON FINGER TIPS


IDENTITY ON FINGER TIPS | Quran Miracles

Your evidence is not logical. Would you like to discuss it one topic at a time? I am amazed that anyone becomes a Muslim based upon evidence like that.

 

[tarekabdo12]

You subsequent list shows that nature has many great wonders.
But that does not validate any sacred book.

May you haven't read the Qura'nic verses that are more than thousand of years old.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Definitely not.

What does this mean exactly?

 

[tarekabdo12]

Your evidence is not logical. Would you like to discuss it one topic at a time? I am amazed that anyone becomes a Muslim based upon evidence like that.

So what's logical? The whole world came by chance? And that's not only what makes me a Muslim, I'd be a Muslim even if these evidences were not here. Islam is so simple. As I said before, the main-stem of Islam there's a God and manners and all others things revolve around the above meanings.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Your evidence is not logical. Would you like to discuss it one topic at a time? I am amazed that anyone becomes a Muslim based upon evidence like that.

Discuss it here if you want, you don't have to be stuck to the title. That's how conversations go on.

 

[Meow Mix]

Moreover, Miss Meow, you hate religion but I think the only cause that you hate it is because it frowns on our sexual acts-according to your terms. But according to what I know religion teaches people God manners and that the universe has a creator. The universe that is far much more complicated, intricate and delicate than a TV which talk centuries of knowledge to reach to its design.So that's religion that I see, the plague you consider.

Hi tarekabdo,

Let me clarify that I don't hate religion. I do find it irrational, but it doesn't bother me. It only bothers me when parents indoctrinate children into religion before they're old enough to understand critical thought; and when religious people try to legislate their taboos onto the rest of society that doesn't agree with their taboos.

Moreover, I don't find religions irrational "because it frowns on [my] sexual acts." I don't believe or disbelieve in things based on whether I like them or not -- I believe or disbelieve things based on whether or not I can determine them to be true. Whether or not a religion condemns the feelings I have for someone or not has nothing to do with it -- after all, there are some religions that say little to nothing about homosexuality and I still doubt those, too.

I also want to clarify that I don't think religion is a plague. At the end of one of my posts I said something like I don't go around telling people that religion is a plague that needs to be sterilized -- I didn't mean that I actually think that. I was just trying to convey that even if I disapprove of religion and especially the indoctrination of children, I wouldn't publicly put it in terms as if it were a disease out of respect for other people to whom their religion is sacred.

 

[Meow Mix]

Ok, that's good and I also have very lovely feelings towards my friends of the same sexual identity so the question is : Why SEX? Males and males are not adapted for each others , Males are adapted for females and voxe versa. The nature of their bodies and that of their personalities are designed so and this is clearly evident and not in need of an argument.

There are different kinds of feelings you can have towards people. You can have a very deep love between a friend and yourself without having a biological sexual attraction. It's clear that you are not attracted to males sexually, so that isn't a problem for you. That's what I think you're not understanding about this: do you think that homosexuals develop a loving relationship with someone and then just decide to make it sexual?

Do you think people just have a switch they can turn on to say "Ok, I'm going to be sexually aroused by this person now?" If you do think that, then I don't understand such thoughts. I don't know about you, but my body tends to decide who to be aroused by quite without my involvement. Doesn't yours? I'm sure there are some women that, despite being "anatomically compatible" with your male body, simply couldn't sexually arouse you. You might say that it depends on their personality, which can be true, but please don't discount the real point here in that our bodies are simply aroused by some people and not aroused by others.

Hopefully that answers your question of "why SEX?" The answer is simple: if we develop feelings of mutual friendship and love with a consenting adult and each of our bodies react with sexual arousal to one another, then our love for one another is a romantic love -- different than brotherly love or Platonic love. So, we have sex just like any other lovers would.

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes, it's like when someone likes bananas and dislikes apples but still they both were designed to be eaten. However, if you meet someone who likes each the soil( Pica) and dislikes the usual food we eat you consider him diseased. I myself prefer light colored women and my friend who is most intimate and close to me may prefer tanned women and I live in a country that doesn't consider any racial difference such a very far period of time but that doesn't make me away from the normal range. Some people may prefer blue color and others may prefer white in their clothes, etc.., however, if somebody prefers to wear dirty clothes so he's considered abnormal.

Eating soil is harmful and leads to dangerous infections -- it's not uncommon for people to die from things like e. coli. Wearing dirty clothing is (I'd imagine) equally as dangerous, as well as inconsiderate to people around you.

Homosexual sex, however, is not harmful. I'll spare you the details, but it works just fine: it's nothing like eating dirt or wearing dirty clothes.

You might cite statistics on, say, male homosexual sex and higher transmission rates of STD's. That would be irrelevant, though, because then you're objecting against immature promiscuity. Homosexuals that enter mature and earnest relationships are just as safe from STD's as their mature and responsible heterosexual counterparts. (Just nipping this potential argument in the bud, if you will)

 

[Meow Mix]

Lady, I wasn't talking here about fertility, I was talking about complementarity. I was pointing to the design which is so delicate, intricate, complementary and complete so don't shift the conversation away from its original point. This complementarity proves first the presence of an intelligent designer made ,second that this designer made them for each others. Just like that, it's so delicate, fine and simple.

Again, I'll spare you the details, but homosexual lovemaking works out just fine.

 

[Meow Mix]

We weren't only talking about high-risk behaviors, we were also talking about violence and infidelity. Moreover, being repressed doesn't mean that I go and damage my beloved couple-as you consider. For example, Muslims were and are repressed in many communities yet that doesn't make them beat their wives. This is not an excuse and does mean nothing, it also didn't make them drink alcohol because they originally don't. I also don't understand how they are repressed( I don't live in your community). As far as I know, the law in your coutry allows them to havy all their civil rights.

I guess I don't understand your viewpoint. What exactly is it about homosexuality that makes you think causes people to be predisposed to violence and infidelity? You're operating on a powerful bias here.

There are people of all walks of life that are irresponsibly promiscuous, emotionally virulent enough to be violent, and cheat on those with whom they've engaged in supposedly trusting relationships. Nothing about homosexuality causes anyone to be any of these things. There are other factors at work here.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

First of all, why is any behavior wrong simply because the writer(s) of a religious book says that it is wrong?

Most people are frightened to face life on their own. So they make themselves believe that an Authority exists which can tell them the Truth. Sometimes that authority is a man. Usually it's a sacred text handed down to them by that man.

Most of the time there's intense social pressure to accept the same Book as is accepted by parents, friends, community.

 

[Meow Mix]

If you had a child also, you will go on filling him with your ideas about homosexuality.

What makes you think I would do that or even approve of that? I would find that just as terrible as religious indoctrination.

So, children learn and imitate and later on everyone will filter his knowledge and be responsible. If your concept is true so don't teach credulous children anything at all till they grow up.Don't teach them morals because morals are subjective and don't teach them evolution as it's subjective.

There's a difference between teaching children not to steal or kill or lie and teaching them to believe the claims of a religion. I'd rather not get into why teaching evolution isn't indoctrination here as it would be off topic, but we can do that elsewhere if you'd like.

Children are taught what their parents give them till they can differentiate and choose whether it's bad or good. It's not only religion and this is not an excuse. If a child was born in America hundreds of years ago, he'd have been taught that black people are his slaves but later he has to choose, and if a child was born to a homosexual who had previous heterosexual relations he'll teach him that it's a great thing so what? The child will take his choices later on and that's how people differ. This isn't the problem of religion, it's more related to the concept of human life.

It seems to me best to teach children the basics of living in a society and teaching them how to think before we teach them what to think. I don't think we should say things to our kids like "This holy book is true" or "homosexuality is acceptable" until they're old enough to make rational and critical choices once given information about a subject.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Homosexuality can be cured by yoga practice.

Hinduism can be cured by becoming homosexual.

 

[Meow Mix]

Homosexuals are not poorer but actually are richer so there must be another cause. People look to them in a low manner so if they feel they aren't so they won't feel any repression. So what, many people were repressed and still remained satisfied. I secondly assert that this behavior is abnormal and that's what makes homos psychologically suffer as they are doing something against their nature.

I'm not sure whether I'll ever be able to get past this persistent bias of yours. I'm a homosexual and I'm not promiscuous. I'm not psychologically suffering. I'm not violent or affluent. I know a lot of male and female homosexuals who aren't any of these things either. I don't understand how you can judge all of us with a clear conscience based on the poor examples some loud, obnoxious, and immature homosexuals have set.

As a Muslim, doesn't it upset you when people judge you based on the poor examples set by loud, obnoxious, and immature Muslims as if they're all the same?

 

[Tamar]

Homosexuals are not poorer but actually are richer so there must be another cause. People look to them in a low manner so if they feel they aren't so they won't feel any repression. So what, many people were repressed and still remained satisfied. I secondly assert that this behavior is abnormal and that's what makes homos psychologically suffer as they are doing something against their nature.

You need to understand they are not doing something against their nature and they are not "homos". We are all born with our sexual orientation be it heterosexual or homosexual. We cannot change who we are. What makes people suffer is the attitude of folks who are homophobic. My nephew was gay and he was bright, funny, had a great sense of humor, loved computers, was about to graduate college. Had a job he loved and many friends and family who loved him.

He was loved and his sexual orientation was never an issue in my family.

 

[Bob Dixon]

What does this mean exactly?

Molecules can bind together, adenine to thymine and cytosine to guanine, using hydrogen bonds, therefore God exists? Really? Come on. 1400 years of brilliant Muslim philosophy and you give us this?
It's not enough; you can show how that can happen without invoking God.