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Moderate Muslims' beliefs about homosexuality

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Is Marvi Sarmad a Muslim as she claims?

Even though she supports homosexual rights, including homosexual acts?

(Along with a secular Pakistan among other "controversial" ideas.)
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
muslim said:
What is meant by rights?

For purposes of this thread, mostly the right to inherit, to choose medical treatment for a partner, same-sex marriage, or at least civil unions, the right to get jobs and housing without discrimination, and the right to serve openly in the military.
 

muslim-

Active Member
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First of all, why is any behavior wrong simply because the writer(s) of a religious book says that it is wrong?

Second, from a scientific perspective, what evidence do you have that homosexual behavior is generally harmful to homosexuals, and to society?

If free will exists, sexual behavior is a choice, but sexual orientation (sexual urges) is not a choice. If a God exists, I doubt that he would want all people who have a homosexual sexual sexual identity to be celebate for life.

Why do you suppose that God forces millions of animals and birds to practice homosexual behavior? As an example, almost all bonobo monkeys are bi-sexual.

Please do not claim that all animal animal homosexuality is a desire for dominance, not sexual pleasure since there is not a general scientific consensus for that speculation. There is little doubt that many animals and birds enjoy engaging in homosexuality, and bi-sexuality.

I am not suggesting that homosexuality is acceptable just because many animals practice it, but the fact that many animals do practice it show that it is a part of nature, not something that is practciced only by some humans.

















I understand your arguement. If a person doesnt believe in a religion to begin with, then naturally, he wouldnt accept its criteria for morality. Therefore, id like to address your idea from a non religious standpoint as well.

While I admit I dont remember the exact details, studies have shown that the structure of the brain of criminals have something in common that makes them prone to violence. Also, sociopaths are a part of nature. We dont condemn them for being sociopaths, but we condemn their actions. Likewise, we dont condemn homosexuals (that are born that way, as I believe some are and some arent) for feeling the way they do, but we address their actions.

Also, in nature, youll find animals having sexual contact with their sisters, mothers, and so on.

One might argue, well, if you dont believe in religion, then the examples you mention, are all harmful, as opposed to two homosexuals that wont even reproduce or hurt anyone.

Now for the sake of argument, if we put "social harm" on the side and pretend its non existent. Then according to this logic, why wouldnt it be moral for immediate family members to give sexual relief to eachother, as long as theres no reproduction if they choose to do so?

I dont think one from a non religious standpoint can accept homosexuality as moral, and actions like that as immoral at the same time. From a non religious standpoint, the two actions are pretty much similar, and one - to avoid contradiction - would have to either accept both, or reject both.

That said, I personally think that homosexuals ( onlythe ones who were born that way) are victims in so many ways. They should be offered medical asistance and all forms of support, especially if one feels he/she is trapped in the body of the opposite gender. They should be helped, not condemned. And acting like its "natural" and moral (therefore neglecting them), in my opinion, certainly doesnt help them at all, neither practically, or on a spiritual level.
 

muslim-

Active Member
For purposes of this thread, mostly the right to inherit, to choose medical treatment for a partner, same-sex marriage, or at least civil unions, the right to get jobs and housing without discrimination, and the right to serve openly in the military.

I believe in religious morality criteria. But if the society is secular, I think civil unions should be allowed societies that want to be secular. You cant have it both ways, you either accept religious morality standards in government or you dont. If you dont, then it doesnt make sense to not allow them to get married. (Inheritance I think is a part of this as I think you mean inheritance among spouses)

A Church of course has the right not to marry them under their religious institution for going against their beleifs. But on the level of government, the issue is very different.

Right to get jobs? Even under moral criteria of Islamic laws, I think they have the right to jobs just like anyone else does, and housing without discrimination (providing they keep their sexuality to themselves and not make it apperant next to neighbors, and their families and children).

Serve "openly" in the military? Well, again, I dont think it makes sense for a society to be secular and disallow this. From a religious standpoint, it makes perfect sense, but not from a secular standpoint.

That said, on a personal I dont believe in disallowing people to have their religious views reflected in government to begin with, and doing so is against freedom of religion.
 
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tarekabdo12

Active Member
Is Marvi Sarmad a Muslim as she claims?

Even though she supports homosexual rights, including homosexual acts?

(Along with a secular Pakistan among other "controversial" ideas.)


I don't consider her so as she defends an idea that totally contradicts the Qur'an and those who defend an idea contradicying the Qur'an don't follow God's orders and so are away from his religions and only following their whims. If a Muslims commits a sin that no scholar appproves- meaning it's from the basics of religion that were directly stated in the Qur'an- he's sinful but is still a Muslim but if he advocates it and says it's not forbidden so he is out of Islam and is playing with God's words.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Second, from a scientific perspective, what evidence do you have that homosexual behavior is generally harmful to homosexuals, and to society?

Cancer Risk Factors for Lesbians. Citing a 1999 report released by the Institute of Medicine, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, the homosexual newspaper The Washington Blade notes that "various studies on Lesbian health suggest that certain cancer risk factors occur with greater frequency in this population. These factors include higher rates of smoking, alcohol use, poor diet, and being overweight."[61] Elsewhere the Blade also reports: "Some experts believe Lesbians might be more likely than women in general to develop breast or cervical cancer because a disproportionate number of them fall into high-risk categories."[62]
Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Lesbians​
· In a study of the medical records of 1,408 lesbians, the journal Sexually Transmitted Infections found that women who have sexual relations with womenare at significantly higher risk for certain sexually transmitted diseases: "We demonstrated a higher prevalence of bv (bacterial vaginosis), hepatitis C, and HIV risk behaviors in WSW as compared with controls."[63]
Compulsive Behavior among Lesbians. A study published in Nursing Research found that lesbians are three times more likely to abuse alcohol and to suffer from other compulsive behaviors: "Like most problem drinkers, 32 (91 percent) of the participants had abused other drugs as well as alcohol, and many reported compulsive difficulties with food (34 percent), codependency (29 percent), sex (11 percent), and money (6 percent)." In addition, "Forty-six percent had been heavy drinkers with frequent drunkenness."[64]
Alcohol Abuse Among Homosexuals and Lesbians​
· The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists reports that lesbian women consume alcohol more frequently, and in larger amounts, than heterosexual women.[65] Lesbians were at significantly greater risk than heterosexual women for both binge drinking (19.4 percent compared to 11.7 percent), and for heavy drinking (7 percent compared to 2.7 percent).[66]
· Although the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists article found no significant connection between male homosexuals and alcohol abuse, a study in Family Planning Perspective concluded that male homosexuals were at greatly increased risk for alcoholism: "Among men, by far the most important risk group consisted of homosexual and bisexual men, who were more than nine times as likely as heterosexual men to have a history of problem drinking."[67] The study noted that problem drinking may contribute to the "significantly higher STD rates among gay and bisexual men."[68]
Violence in Lesbian and Homosexual Relationships.
· A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.[69]
· In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."[70]
· In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."[71]
Compare the Low Rate of Intimate Partner Violence within Marriage. Homosexual and lesbian relationships are far more violent than are traditional married households:
· The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships.[72]
· A report by the Medical Institute for Sexual Health concurred,
It should be noted that most studies of family violence do not differentiate between married and unmarried partner status. Studies that do make these distinctions have found that marriage relationships tend to have the least intimate partner violence when compared to cohabiting or dating relationships.[73]
High Incidence of Mental Health Problems among Homosexuals and Lesbians. A national survey of lesbians published in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology found that 75 percent of the nearly 2,000 respondents had pursued psychological counseling of some kind, many for treatment of long-term depression or sadness:
Among the sample as a whole, there was a distressingly high prevalence of life events and behaviors related to mental health problems. Thirty-seven percent had been physically abused and 32 percent had been raped or sexually attacked. Nineteen percent had been involved in incestuous relationships while growing up. Almost one-third used tobacco on a daily basis and about 30 percent drank alcohol more than once a week; 6 percent drank daily. One in five smoked marijuana more than once a month. Twenty-one percent of the sample had thoughts about suicide sometimes or often and 18 percent had actually tried to kill themselves. . . . More than half had felt too nervous to accomplish ordinary activities at some time during the past year and over one-third had been depressed.[74]
Greater Risk for Suicide.
· A study of twins that examined the relationship between homosexuality and suicide, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry,found that homosexuals with same-sex partners were at greater risk for overall mental health problems, and were 6.5 times more likely than their twins to have attempted suicide. The higher rate was not attributable to mental health or substance abuse disorders.[75]
· Another study published simultaneously in Archives of General Psychiatry followed 1,007 individuals from birth. Those classified as "gay," lesbian, or bisexual were significantly more likely to have had mental health problems.[76] Significantly, in his comments on the studies in the same issue of the journal, D. Bailey cautioned against various speculative explanations of the results, such as the view that "widespread prejudice against homosexual people causes them to be unhappy or worse, mentally ill."[77]

The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality

There a lot of evidences but just you want to disclose the curtain off them. Even it is something so evident and unnatural. You just should ask yourself why there is a proportional number of males and females and why they are so complementary to each others physically and emotionally, great man.
 
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tarekabdo12

Active Member
For purposes of this thread, mostly the right to inherit, to choose medical treatment for a partner, same-sex marriage, or at least civil unions, the right to get jobs and housing without discrimination, and the right to serve openly in the military.


Islam approves that they get all their civil rights as this is something away from religion but only they shouldn't marry because they were designed to marry, it's simple.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
If you want to consider homosexuality, you should also consider human anatomy and psychology of both males and females. It's so obvious, dear.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
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tarekabdo12

Active Member
First of all, why is any behavior wrong simply because the writer(s) of a religious book says that it is wrong?


you can also see how the Qur'an talked about certain scientific findings more than a thousand of years before→
The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran
http://www.islamicmiracles.net/quran_on_clouds.htm


Islam is not just man-made as you claim. Rejecting God is real man-fabricated idea so that people can do whatever appears to them wrong and satisfies their whims even if it's destructive to their own soles.


 
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tarekabdo12

Active Member
Actually manners are what makes man happy and satisfied not whims and vagaries. Morals build man from inside as well as vagaries unless they don't turn away from the direction of morals and religion. Religion didn't come to cancel vagaries but only to rectify them so as not to trample man and crush him under its feet.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
tarekabdo12 said:
Actually manners are what makes man happy and satisfied not whims and vagaries. Morals build man from inside as well as vagaries unless they don't turn away from the direction of morals and religion. Religion didn't come to cancel vagaries but only to rectify them so as not to trample man and crush him under its feet.

Why do you believe that God inspired Muslim writings?
 

ohhcuppycakee

Active Member
Why do you believe that God inspired Muslim writings?

First thing about Islam:
- We believe there were prophets who received revelations from God.
- We believe the Qur'an is a revelation from God.

Believing scriptures are divinely inspired is a general thing in religion.......
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
tarekabdo12 said:
Cancer Risk Factors for Lesbians. Citing a 1999 report released by the Institute of Medicine, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, the homosexual newspaper The Washington Blade notes that "various studies on Lesbian health suggest that certain cancer risk factors occur with greater frequency in this population. These factors include higher rates of smoking, alcohol use, poor diet, and being overweight."[61] Elsewhere the Blade also reports: "Some experts believe Lesbians might be more likely than women in general to develop breast or cervical cancer because a disproportionate number of them fall into high-risk categories."[62]

Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Lesbians​

· In a study of the medical records of 1,408 lesbians, the journal Sexually Transmitted Infections found that women who have sexual relations with womenare at significantly higher risk for certain sexually transmitted diseases: "We demonstrated a higher prevalence of bv (bacterial vaginosis), hepatitis C, and HIV risk behaviors in WSW as compared with controls."[63]
Compulsive Behavior among Lesbians. A study published in Nursing Research found that lesbians are three times more likely to abuse alcohol and to suffer from other compulsive behaviors: "Like most problem drinkers, 32 (91 percent) of the participants had abused other drugs as well as alcohol, and many reported compulsive difficulties with food (34 percent), codependency (29 percent), sex (11 percent), and money (6 percent)." In addition, "Forty-six percent had been heavy drinkers with frequent drunkenness."[64]

Alcohol Abuse Among Homosexuals and Lesbians​

· The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists reports that lesbian women consume alcohol more frequently, and in larger amounts, than heterosexual women.[65] Lesbians were at significantly greater risk than heterosexual women for both binge drinking (19.4 percent compared to 11.7 percent), and for heavy drinking (7 percent compared to 2.7 percent).[66]
· Although the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychologists article found no significant connection between male homosexuals and alcohol abuse, a study in Family Planning Perspective concluded that male homosexuals were at greatly increased risk for alcoholism: "Among men, by far the most important risk group consisted of homosexual and bisexual men, who were more than nine times as likely as heterosexual men to have a history of problem drinking."[67] The study noted that problem drinking may contribute to the "significantly higher STD rates among gay and bisexual men."[68]
Violence in Lesbian and Homosexual Relationships.
· A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.[69]
· In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."[70]
· In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."[71]
Compare the Low Rate of Intimate Partner Violence within Marriage. Homosexual and lesbian relationships are far more violent than are traditional married households:
· The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships.[72]
· A report by the Medical Institute for Sexual Health concurred,
It should be noted that most studies of family violence do not differentiate between married and unmarried partner status. Studies that do make these distinctions have found that marriage relationships tend to have the least intimate partner violence when compared to cohabiting or dating relationships.[73]
High Incidence of Mental Health Problems among Homosexuals and Lesbians. A national survey of lesbians published in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology found that 75 percent of the nearly 2,000 respondents had pursued psychological counseling of some kind, many for treatment of long-term depression or sadness:
Among the sample as a whole, there was a distressingly high prevalence of life events and behaviors related to mental health problems. Thirty-seven percent had been physically abused and 32 percent had been raped or sexually attacked. Nineteen percent had been involved in incestuous relationships while growing up. Almost one-third used tobacco on a daily basis and about 30 percent drank alcohol more than once a week; 6 percent drank daily. One in five smoked marijuana more than once a month. Twenty-one percent of the sample had thoughts about suicide sometimes or often and 18 percent had actually tried to kill themselves. . . . More than half had felt too nervous to accomplish ordinary activities at some time during the past year and over one-third had been depressed.[74]
Greater Risk for Suicide.
· A study of twins that examined the relationship between homosexuality and suicide, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry,found that homosexuals with same-sex partners were at greater risk for overall mental health problems, and were 6.5 times more likely than their twins to have attempted suicide. The higher rate was not attributable to mental health or substance abuse disorders.[75]
· Another study published simultaneously in Archives of General Psychiatry followed 1,007 individuals from birth. Those classified as "gay," lesbian, or bisexual were significantly more likely to have had mental health problems.[76] Significantly, in his comments on the studies in the same issue of the journal, D. Bailey cautioned against various speculative explanations of the results, such as the view that "widespread prejudice against homosexual people causes them to be unhappy or worse, mentally ill."[77]

The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality

There a lot of evidences but just you want to disclose the curtain off them. Even it is something so evident and unnatural. You just should ask yourself why there is a proportional number of males and females and why they are so complementary to each others physically and emotionally, great man.

I refer you to my new thread that is titled 'Science and homosexuality.'
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Is Marvi Sarmad a Muslim as she claims?

Even though she supports homosexual rights, including homosexual acts?

(Along with a secular Pakistan among other "controversial" ideas.)

I don't consider her so as she defends an idea that totally contradicts the Qur'an and those who defend an idea contradicying the Qur'an don't follow God's orders and so are away from his religions and only following their whims. If a Muslims commits a sin that no scholar appproves- meaning it's from the basics of religion that were directly stated in the Qur'an- he's sinful but is still a Muslim but if he advocates it and says it's not forbidden so he is out of Islam and is playing with God's words.

So, any person claiming to follow Islam who advocates something you consider "sinful" is not really a Muslim?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
So, any person claiming to follow Islam who advocates something you consider "sinful" is not really a Muslim?


Not "I" consider him sinful, I already asserted that it must be directly and evidently stated by the Qura'n and the Sunnah and all the trusted Muslim scholars agree upon it not things which depend upon difference in interpretations between scholars. I secondly repeat: they must be of the mainstems of the Islamic religion.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe

It can be also cured by considering sex not only a physical act but also a spiritual and moral act. The love between males and females not only the physical actions.

Have either of you considered that it's extremely inconsiderate to say that someone can be "cured" of their feelings for the people that they love as though it were some sort of disease?

What if someone were to make an inconsiderate post where they spoke of "curing" you of your love for your wife, or husband, or God, as though that were a disease? What if they openly scorned your love for someone as something illegitimate, vile, or insincere -- completely unapologetically?

You may believe that sexual relationships between the same sex is disgusting (and that's fine), you may believe that God frowns on same-sex couples (and that's fine), but that doesn't give you an excuse to use language publicly that treats love between two people like some sort of disease that needs to be "cured." It may not be illegal, and I do indeed support your right to free speech and to express your opinion, but that doesn't make it any less hateful or rude.

I don't think that instilling religion in children is ethical or morally right, for instance; but I don't run around rudely braying that religion is a "disease" that needs to be "cured" no matter how much I disagree with it. I probably find it about as disgusting as you might find homosexual relationships -- but I'm not rude enough to publicly announce that religious people are a plague that should be sterilized.

Now, I've used a lot of strong and fairly harsh language above, but it's only to make a point. Maybe neither of you considered how your choice of words would come across to people, and that's fine. I get that a lot of religions frown on homosexuality and that consequently, it might be difficult to imagine genuine love between two men or two women. If you truly believe that God disapproves of it then you might feel justified in treating it like a disease of some sort. You're entitled to believe that -- I'm a woman, but I'm attracted to other women, and I fully support anyone's right to disagree with homosexuality, even if they vehemently disagree with it.

That doesn't give you the right to be outright rude, though. Disagree with homosexuality all you want -- you can even be vocal about it and say how wrong you think it is, but please do not publicly tell me and those like me that my genuine love for another person is a disease. Because that's exactly what the implication is when you assert there's a "cure." Is there a "cure" for loving God? Is there a "cure" for loving your husband or wife? Let's please just be a little more considerate in how we word things, okay?

(I'm not as angry as that sounded, though! We're all friends here :yes:)

-----
EDIT: Also, sorry for the redundancy; this post was written while running back and forth making food -- I kept forgetting what I had already typed and what I still felt I needed to say!
 
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