Or as hubbies grandfather used to say "gods own country,"
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Misery and Unbelonging
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Or as hubbies grandfather used to say "gods own country,"
I have heard this story told by various happy married people. In romance sometimes things don't happen the way they're 'Supposed' to. The rules sometimes are things that other people think are the best for you but which may not be. This always trips me up, because I like to be safe. I know though of relationships where the rules have warned of problems and then nothing bad happened. Sometimes you stick something in an electric socket and are not electrocuted. Sometimes things just work out anyway.
Sometimes people in two different faiths get together, and for some reason it works. Everybody says you're not supposed to do that, but it works sometimes. I know of other exceptions that have happened, too. I know of a love-at-first-sight couple that have been married for a long time. I know of a long term couple that had sex on their first date! I know of two others of longevity where one was in a faith dating one that wasn't. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but sometimes it does. The rule doesn't guarantee that things will work.
Sometimes people in two different faiths get together, and for some reason it works. Everybody says you're not supposed to do that, but it works sometimes. I know of other exceptions that have happened, too. I know of a love-at-first-sight couple that have been married for a long time. I know of a long term couple that had sex on their first date! I know of two others of longevity where one was in a faith dating one that wasn't. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but sometimes it does. The rule doesn't guarantee that things will work.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
You are between a rock and a hard place. It can be a popular place. You could be a vegan Buddhist socialist in a grim northern post-industrial town 
Sorry, I will post again but prob not till tomorrow. Don't hold your breath.I'm interested why you want to know now. You can't just ask that without a followup
Small Yorkshire village.
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Only two things occur to me. The first is that when one's depressed, walking for an hour a day is a good thing.This is a journal thread so feel free to turn back.
Starting too many sentences with 'I' makes me feel self-absorbed, but here it is. I'm feeling so lonely lately. My friends on here have already felt the brunt on this, but no, I really do. Even on RF it seems most of my British and continental European peers are atheists or some form of 'spiritual but not religious' in a way with which I can't identify. It seems even talking about religion is taboo and causes folks' anger to rise, as for a lot of folks their dislike of religion seems to stem not from the ideology but the religious people and institutions themselves, and it just seems really hard to make people see beyond their hostile feelings and have an in-depth look at the religion itself on its own merits. This is an issue for me because my religion is my life; so I feel isolated and unheard; or worse, mocked and scorned. They say the best thing for religion is to 'keep it at home' - except this just isn't feasible for most seriously religious folks. It also seems to betray a hostile attitude towards religion in general; one of 'we don't want to hear or see it'. It's just too tiring for me to try to help people move past this a lot of the time.
This has also led to trouble finding a partner. I do like women, but to have one for a life partner seems wrong to me. It goes against my religious sensibilities, ultimately, and it feels incomplete. I need a bloke. Yet more women tend to be religious than men and there's no way I'm going for an atheist. I feel like I've lived up to my own expectations most of the time; I've not slept around, I've not strung people along (or if I have, I never meant to), I've not lied to folks about where I stand. It's no secret I talk about sex openly and have an appetite for it, but despite this I've kept myself in check out in the real world.
It's really depressing to me that I live on one of the most secular places (western Europe) on Earth. It means wherever I go 'locally' I'll face the same issues. I don't know what I'm meant to do at this point. Sometimes I wish I could just give up and join the ranks of atheists and be a part of my society, but I can't do that. I dislike the likes of the Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins cultists, too.
I don't know, maybe it is time to think of converting. It's better than jumping off a bridge.
The issue I have with it is that it makes me feel kicked out of my own culture; that my own people have said I'm not part of them. And Judaism makes conversion hard since it's a no-turning-back avenue. So it feels like I'm between a rock and hard place.
The other is that (since neither geography nor covid allow the reality) I send you the moral equivalent of buying you a cup of well-made coffee, and the proffering of a hug if that would help.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Would that have day to day practical consequences?
Well...
I'd have to move to a Jewish area, which means abandoning family. Also potentially losing family as I'm sure no-one would be exactly thrilled at my choice.
Then it'd take 2 years to convert.
Then I'd be bound to all Torah law; so keeping Shabbat, keeping Kosher, observing festivals, fasts and whatnot, as well as basically learning a new language.
I can do this, but as it is, I'm not obliged in those things now. I can cross-dress (which I do); I can be with a woman; I don't have to observe Shabbat or keep kosher. If I convert, those options are taken away. Then I can never return to it. Once you're Jewish you're Jewish. I like Noahidism as I enjoy the relative freedom it gives me. Don't get me wrong; I could be Jewish and put all my heart into the rituals; I've adopted some already; but that's the thing - right now it's my choice.
I want to be part of my people and it's incredibly upsetting that I feel I don't belong.
My issue is kind of your opposite? I'm very sexually driven, so I feel that certain frustration acutely at times; yet my sensibilities tell me I need to wait for marriage, otherwise I just feel used. That alone makes this hard
Yeah, it sounds like you have values that are grating against one another. Something somewhere will have to give or change. What that will be is something life's course will help you discover, perhaps? It isn't easy, in any case.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Ok. So could, in the short term at least, relocating but not converting be a step forward?
Relocate to where?
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Not a specific place. I know there's the money issue, but I'm wondering if a larger place (than your small village) might open up more opportunities, people-wise? Or would that just be more of the wrong sort of people?
There'd be more folks to mingle with and choose from, but it is very hard to find the, uhm, ultra religious kind of my flavour. That's a problem I don't really expect anyone to know the answer to, given my expectations.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
You poor soul.
Well, it's clear that your present situation is highly unsatisfying. It does seem to come down to two choices, if you wish to quickly remedy the situation: convert to Judaism or lower your expectations. Obviously neither are ideal. :/
For me, it seems the most important issue you face may be a need to share your religious beliefs. But I wouldn't think that true "faith" is something that even needs to be shared. It's something internal to you, important to you, meaningful to you, and occupies a part of your life. But you don't need to share all of you with a partner, no matter how close the relationship. In fact, relationships often work better when partners retain something of themselves for themselves, and feel empowered to live that without interference from their significant other.This is a journal thread so feel free to turn back.
Starting too many sentences with 'I' makes me feel self-absorbed, but here it is. I'm feeling so lonely lately. My friends on here have already felt the brunt on this, but no, I really do. Even on RF it seems most of my British and continental European peers are atheists or some form of 'spiritual but not religious' in a way with which I can't identify. It seems even talking about religion is taboo and causes folks' anger to rise, as for a lot of folks their dislike of religion seems to stem not from the ideology but the religious people and institutions themselves, and it just seems really hard to make people see beyond their hostile feelings and have an in-depth look at the religion itself on its own merits. This is an issue for me because my religion is my life; so I feel isolated and unheard; or worse, mocked and scorned. They say the best thing for religion is to 'keep it at home' - except this just isn't feasible for most seriously religious folks. It also seems to betray a hostile attitude towards religion in general; one of 'we don't want to hear or see it'. It's just too tiring for me to try to help people move past this a lot of the time.
This has also led to trouble finding a partner. I do like women, but to have one for a life partner seems wrong to me. It goes against my religious sensibilities, ultimately, and it feels incomplete. I need a bloke. Yet more women tend to be religious than men and there's no way I'm going for an atheist. I feel like I've lived up to my own expectations most of the time; I've not slept around, I've not strung people along (or if I have, I never meant to), I've not lied to folks about where I stand. It's no secret I talk about sex openly and have an appetite for it, but despite this I've kept myself in check out in the real world.
It's really depressing to me that I live on one of the most secular places (western Europe) on Earth. It means wherever I go 'locally' I'll face the same issues. I don't know what I'm meant to do at this point. Sometimes I wish I could just give up and join the ranks of atheists and be a part of my society, but I can't do that. I dislike the likes of the Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins cultists, too.
I don't know, maybe it is time to think of converting. It's better than jumping off a bridge.
The issue I have with it is that it makes me feel kicked out of my own culture; that my own people have said I'm not part of them. And Judaism makes conversion hard since it's a no-turning-back avenue. So it feels like I'm between a rock and hard place.
In other words, true religious worship really ought to be something that is between you and the object of your faith, quiet, private, fulfilling an important need -- but irrelevant to others.
I had a long-term relationship with the organist in an Anglican church, and whose religious beliefs were important to him. I came to church sometimes to hear him play, but wasn't interested in the religion, because that's not part of who I am. That was not an impediment to our having a good and meaningful relationship.
Of course my spouse sharing my beliefs is important. It takes up a lot of my life. I don't want to do this alone, for goodness sake. My religion is like my hobby, my special interest; if my partner doesn't share that it's unlikely we'll have much else in common as one of the main things I do is study my religion's texts. I love to talk about it and discuss it. I also don't want my kids celebrating any non-Jewish holidays or learning from their other parent to do these things. I have a duty to raise my kids in my faith. I guess a lot of people just aren't understanding how much involved my faith is in day to day life.
Maybe you don't know much about Orthodox Judaism but all day every day is basically taken up by religion. 3 prayers a day; daily study, blessings over food, blessings over hand washing, blessings after using the toilet; blessings on the weather, blessings on new clothes and so on. Basically for men if you have free time it's 'Why are your feet up? Why aren't you studying Torah?' All our thoughts and actions are meant to be determined by this.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
That has basically summed every friendship Ive had since I left religion behind. Its so unimportant to me that its unimportant in my relationships (unless they try to make it so, amd going too far and being too insistent on it is a reason I havent really talked to my sister in years, because she won't leave it alone and would often bring up how I need to believe again, going as far to say I was better off then despite the fact I was suicidal then).
Well, then, you have taken up your own burden, and you must bear it. I doubt that your religious tradition actually cares much about if you are happy, as long as you are correct in everything that you do. That is not an existence that I could participate in, and I suspect that's true of many other people. And of course, since you said that you "need a bloke," you've already designated that as an impossibility, since there's no blessing available for that in any orthodox faith I've ever seen.
If your religion is more important to you than your life, then you'll have to make do with your religion.
I'm a girl.
Oh, sorry, can't tell from the Avatar.
Wasn't there a time when it was considered wrong for girls to be even engaged in studying Torah and Talmud and such? Just thinking back to the movie Yentl, with Barbara Streisand, who had to pretend to be male to go to the Yeshiva.