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Misconceptions

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It may be the goal to create a machine mind that we cannot predict. But Scott Aaronson’s point is ‘knowability’ of the code that runs the machine. It is there in post 18.
I would think the problem could even then arise that the machine could potentially develop an understanding of itself and its make-up/code. And once it does, what's to stop it from re-writing sections of itself to suit its own needs? At that point, unless you can get back in, there goes your "knowability" of the code. To my mind (and I could obviously be mistaken) in order to have a free-form "consciousness" like this as a program, you'd have to give it access to modify its memory banks and interpretation mechanisms at will. Otherwise, you'd have to keep some parts of it hard-coded, and untouchable by the machine itself - at which point you have decidedly stifled its ability to truly "grow" - and if your goal was to emulate a human mind, then you have imposed artificial restrictions that do not exist for humans. We can, in a sense, "re-write" sections of our programming. People do it all the time and change in even fundamental ways.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I would think the problem could even then arise that the machine could potentially develop an understanding of itself and its make-up/code. And once it does, what's to stop it from re-writing sections of itself to .

What is there in present day code that will give rise to self awareness? The scenario itself indicates that we do not know as to what is self awareness. So, we imagine that something in a code will engender a self. IMO, this is speculation only.

But suppose that a particular code indeed gives rise to self awareness in a machine, in that case we still have a physical code. What of consciousness? What of mental causation? Do we know these?
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
What is there in present day code that will give rise to self awareness?
If we're truly trying to emulate the brain, then this would certainly be part of the goal, wouldn't it? People are working on it, and if they crack the mechanisms within our own brains that support "self-awareness" then they might just be able to model the same. I honestly don't know how far anyone has gotten - but I would guess not too far.

Besides this, why even talk about your brain being uploaded and "immortality" if the subsequent machine created to "replace" you isn't even self-aware? Remember what I said about it not truly being "you?" Take out self-awareness as a possibility and where are you at? Again... it wouldn't even be close to "you."
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
If we're truly trying to emulate the brain, then this would certainly be part of the goal, wouldn't it? People are working on it, and if they crack the mechanisms within our own brains that support "self-awareness" then they might just be able to model the same. I honestly don't know how far anyone has gotten - but I would guess not too far.

Besides this, why even talk about your brain being uploaded and "immortality" if the subsequent machine created to "replace" you isn't even self-aware? Remember what I said about it not truly being "you?" Take out self-awareness as a possibility and where are you at? Again... it wouldn't even be close to "you."

I edited the post. Please re read.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Though then the two diverge and memories and any psychological development is necessarily different for the two "entities" from that point forward.
Precisely.

I guess my main point was simply that, if you are able to sit and witness the machine that is now supposedly "you" then it has to be realized that it cannot possibly ever be "you" in an exact sense - because there you both are, existing simultaneously, and yet experiencing things separately.

I take it from a different view. Suppose at 12 o'clock I decide to have my consciousness cloned into a silicon machine, which is done at 1 o'clock. At 2 o'clock, there are *two* different entities that can make a valid claim to be 'the same' as the person at 12 o'clock: the biological machine and the silicon machine. But, because of the differences between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock, those two entities will have different recent memories.

One reason this seems paradoxical is that it violates transitivity: if they are both 'the same' as the 12 o'clock person, they should be the same as each other. The reason, as far as I can see, is that normally, we don't have two different entities with the same memories up to any time.

So, am I the 'same' as I was 10 years ago? Well, there is a continuity of memories which we use to say yes. But I am also quite different than I was 10 years ago.

Another way to see this: suppose I run the same software on two different computers. Are they the same process? No. They are the same program, but different processes.

I see 'me' as being the process that is running on the architecture of my brain.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I see 'me' as being the process that is running on the architecture of my brain.

Some examples of seeing/observing/watching are:
  • A scientist looking at a chemical reaction in an experiment
  • A doctor watching a patient after administering an injection
  • An astronomer looking at the night sky and recording data regarding movement and brightness of the objects he sees
  • A zoologist watching lions in a den after prey is introduced to determine the swiftness of the animals' response
.........

So, when you see the process, then are you the process?

...
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Some examples of seeing/observing/watching are:
  • A scientist looking at a chemical reaction in an experiment
  • A doctor watching a patient after administering an injection
  • An astronomer looking at the night sky and recording data regarding movement and brightness of the objects he sees
  • A zoologist watching lions in a den after prey is introduced to determine the swiftness of the animals' response
.........

So, when you see the process, then are you the process?

...

How about

The Hubble Space Telescope catching photons from a distant galaxy?

A probe on Mars doing a chemical analysis of a sample?

A photodetector that, when triggered, causes a door to open?

A robot in a manufacturing plant detecting and then picking up and object?

------

Well, I don't see the process. Even with an MRI, I don't see it in enough detail to get the process.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Precisely.



I take it from a different view. Suppose at 12 o'clock I decide to have my consciousness cloned into a silicon machine, which is done at 1 o'clock. At 2 o'clock, there are *two* different entities that can make a valid claim to be 'the same' as the person at 12 o'clock: the biological machine and the silicon machine. But, because of the differences between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock, those two entities will have different recent memories.

One reason this seems paradoxical is that it violates transitivity: if they are both 'the same' as the 12 o'clock person, they should be the same as each other. The reason, as far as I can see, is that normally, we don't have two different entities with the same memories up to any time.

So, am I the 'same' as I was 10 years ago? Well, there is a continuity of memories which we use to say yes. But I am also quite different than I was 10 years ago.

Another way to see this: suppose I run the same software on two different computers. Are they the same process? No. They are the same program, but different processes.

I see 'me' as being the process that is running on the architecture of my brain.
I see what you mean, and agree with most of it, however the "me" that is this thing that, as you say, constantly updates, and yet retains an account of previous activities, also comes with a "self-awareness" package that is entirely unique to this body/mind combo. Any "self awareness" that is experienced by the machine version of myself that got "turned on" at 1 o'clock most certainly has its own "self-awareness" component that is separate from my own. Therefore, my self-awareness component being part-and-parcel of "me," the machine cannot be "me." It is operating under a different umbrella of awareness - one that "I" cannot experience.

I am reminded of the movie "The Prestige", within which Christian Bale's character deceives everyone into thinking he magically performs a difficult escape impossibly quickly. When really it is the emergence of a twin - they hide this fact to protect the trick. Well, Hugh Jackman, a rival magician, spends great amounts of time and energy trying to figure out the trick, ultimately ending in himself getting a hold of clues leading him to Nikola Tesla, who (for the film's requirements) has secretly developed a machine that allows a man to clone himself. Hugh Jackman buys the machine, and proceeds to perform his own version of the trick using the clone, but his trick involves escaping from a tank of water, and instead of an escape, he just leaves the clone (himself?) to drown and the other copy of him is what emerges, having supposedly escaped. But he is despondent as he watches the clone/himself die in the tank, and I believe rightly so. For there you see yourself dying, but which are you, the one witnessing this? Are you the clone? The original? And you would have to ask yourself... shouldn't this matter?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I see what you mean, and agree with most of it, however the "me" that is this thing that, as you say, constantly updates, and yet retains an account of previous activities, also comes with a "self-awareness" package that is entirely unique to this body/mind combo. Any "self awareness" that is experienced by the machine version of myself that got "turned on" at 1 o'clock most certainly has its own "self-awareness" component that is separate from my own. Therefore, my self-awareness component being part-and-parcel of "me," the machine cannot be "me." It is operating under a different umbrella of awareness - one that "I" cannot experience.

Yep.

A recent comic dealt with some of these issues: #1485; In which One become Two

Start there and keep going for several comics. It's fun, but shows some issues that can arise.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Well, I don't see the process. Even with an MRI, I don't see it in enough detail to get the process.

Oh.

I see 'me' as being the process that is running on the architecture of my brain.

Well. I understand that you imagine/conceptualise that you are the process that is running on the architecture of your brain.

So if the brain process is ‘you’ in identity, what is this conceptualisation? No one can see any conceptualisation in the brain processes. Conceptualisation is an extra layer. How do you reduce this extra element of conceptualisation to material brain processes?

And the original question remains. If you imagine/see in mind’s eye the process, are you the process?

Is the subject ever the object?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh.



Well. I understand that you imagine/conceptualise that you are the process that is running on the architecture of your brain.

So if the brain process is ‘you’ in identity, what is this conceptualisation? No one can see any conceptualisation in the brain processes. Conceptualisation is an extra layer. How do you reduce this extra element of conceptualisation to material brain processes?

And the original question remains. If you imagine/see in mind’s eye the process, are you the process?

Is the subject ever the object?

The conceptualization is one phase of the process. It is not the whole process, only a representation of it. And yes, I am the process, not just the conceptualization.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I think the following is pertinent to this discussion.

The four biggest challenges in brain simulation

Some aspects of mind, such as understanding, agency and consciousness, might never be captured by digital brain simulations. Simulations that lack a representation of consciousness might be of limited use in understanding phenomena as complex as psychiatric conditions.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Turing test - Wikipedia

Many cite Turing Test criterion as proof of mind being nothing beyond material controlled computation. People think that through his discovery of computational universality and the Test criterion for intelligence, Turing had proven that there was nothing more to mind, brain, or the physical world than the unfolding of an immense computation.

But is this assessment correct?

in a 1951 radio address Turing himself brought up Eddington, and the possible limits on prediction of human brains imposed by the uncertainty principle:

If it is accepted that real brains, as found in animals, and in particular in men, are a sort of machine it will follow that our digital computer suitably programmed, will behave like a brain. [But the argument for this conclusion] involves several assumptions which can quite reasonably be challenged. [It is] necessary that this machine should be of the sort whose behaviour is in principle predictable by calculation. We certainly do not know how any such calculation should be done, and it was even argued by Sir Arthur Eddington that on account of the indeterminacy principle in quantum mechanics no such prediction is even theoretically possible.

Furthermore, in 1954 again Turing quoted Eddington in postcard message to Robin Gandy, that reads, in part:

Messages from the Unseen World
The Universe is the interior of the Light Cone of the Creation. Science is a Differential Equation. Religion is a Boundary Condition

So, it seems that Turing postulated and believed that a Turing machine will be able to fool us in thinking that it was intelligent. But Turing did not necessarily believe that such a programmed machine would possess the same intelligence as ours. In short, ability to imitate a part of intelligent action is not same as possessing the same intelligence. So, my first question is, in light of what Turing himself said, will a Turing machine someday passing a Turing verbal imitation test prove that human intelligence is nothing but computation?

The point however seems even more deeper in light of Turing's reference to "The Universe is the interior of the Light Cone of the Creation. Science is a Differential Equation. Religion is a Boundary Condition". It is, in my opinion, a point related to operation of will.

Niels Bohr, from a 1932 lecture about the implications of Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle:

[W]e should doubtless kill an animal if we tried to carry the investigation of its organs so far that we could tell the part played by the single atoms in vital functions. In every experiment on living organisms there must remain some uncertainty as regards the physical conditions to which they are subjected, and the idea suggests itself that the minimal freedom we must allow the organism will be just large enough to permit it, so to say, to hide its ultimate secrets from us.

Or this, from the physicist Arthur Compton:

A set of known physical conditions is not adequate to specify precisely what a forth- coming event will be. These conditions, insofar as they can be known, define instead a range of possible events from among which some particular event will occur. When one exercises freedom, by his act of choice he is himself adding a factor not supplied by the physical conditions and is thus himself determining what will occur. That he does so is known only to the person himself. From the outside one can see in his act only the working of physical law.

So, my second question is same as the question put forth by Scott_Aaronson in his seminal work "Ghost in Quantum Turing Machine": "Does quantum mechanics (specifically, say, the No-Cloning Theorem or the uncertainty principle) put interesting limits on an external agent’s ability to scan, copy, and predict human brains and other complicated biological systems, or doesn’t it?"
.............
Note: The material for this thread is cited from the following:
Scott Aaronson. “Scott_Aaronson_Ghost in Quantum Turing Machine”.
https://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/giqtm3.pdf

Scott has cited the following papers (pertaining to this thread) in his paper:

S. M. Shieber, editor. The Turing Test: Verbal Behavior as the Hallmark of Intelligence. Bradford Books, 2004.
A. Hodges. Alan Turing: The Enigma. Princeton University Press, 2012. Centenary edition.”
N. Bohr. Atomic Physics and Human Knowledge. Dover, 2010. First published 1961.
A. H. Compton. Science and Man’s freedom. The Atlantic, 200(4):71–74, October 1957
.............

...


Thanks for this. You raise a topic that I have tried to raise here and there.

I think that we can look to complexity science and chaos theory to see the unpredictability of future events manifest on a level more practical and abstract than quantum physics. If you look at the way an individual neuron interacts with other neurons you have a great analogy for free will itself...a neuron is influenced by a gradient of electrical potential across its membrane brought about by the action potentials of other neurons...some neurons "hyperpolarize" that gradient while others cause "depolarization". Given the often very numerous neuron interconnections the sum total of those influences creates a very nuanced environment for a sufficient hyperpolarization to reach the threshold for that neuron to then fire its own action potential. Now add another layer on top of that for all the other complex systems involved that might influence neural behavior from the biological to the human social/cultural. Free will then is the realization that an agent exists in a node of this interconnected complexity that significantly can determine the action that node takes based on how that node receives and processes complex input.

The key idea here is that complex, adaptive systems are always found in similar circumstances...systems that have evolved into more or less persistent forms that are in interaction with other complex systems which themselves have evolved into persistent forms. There is a great limit to the ability of any computational device to predict the behavior of any element of such interwoven systems too far into the future. So the idea that a computer, which is made entirely of logical code can one day emulate the human brain is incorrect but for only one reason...logical code must accept real time input and as soon as that happens, if you can create a code system that can persist in achieving the adaptability of the AI over a long period of time in the context of real time, significant input from the environment, THEN you might have a conscious artificial intelligence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Turing test - Wikipedia

Many cite Turing Test criterion as proof of mind being nothing beyond material controlled computation. People think that through his discovery of computational universality and the Test criterion for intelligence, Turing had proven that there was nothing more to mind, brain, or the physical world than the unfolding of an immense computation.

But is this assessment correct?

in a 1951 radio address Turing himself brought up Eddington, and the possible limits on prediction of human brains imposed by the uncertainty principle:

If it is accepted that real brains, as found in animals, and in particular in men, are a sort of machine it will follow that our digital computer suitably programmed, will behave like a brain. [But the argument for this conclusion] involves several assumptions which can quite reasonably be challenged. [It is] necessary that this machine should be of the sort whose behaviour is in principle predictable by calculation. We certainly do not know how any such calculation should be done, and it was even argued by Sir Arthur Eddington that on account of the indeterminacy principle in quantum mechanics no such prediction is even theoretically possible.

Furthermore, in 1954 again Turing quoted Eddington in postcard message to Robin Gandy, that reads, in part:

Messages from the Unseen World
The Universe is the interior of the Light Cone of the Creation. Science is a Differential Equation. Religion is a Boundary Condition

So, it seems that Turing postulated and believed that a Turing machine will be able to fool us in thinking that it was intelligent. But Turing did not necessarily believe that such a programmed machine would possess the same intelligence as ours. In short, ability to imitate a part of intelligent action is not same as possessing the same intelligence. So, my first question is, in light of what Turing himself said, will a Turing machine someday passing a Turing verbal imitation test prove that human intelligence is nothing but computation?

The point however seems even more deeper in light of Turing's reference to "The Universe is the interior of the Light Cone of the Creation. Science is a Differential Equation. Religion is a Boundary Condition". It is, in my opinion, a point related to operation of will.

Niels Bohr, from a 1932 lecture about the implications of Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle:

[W]e should doubtless kill an animal if we tried to carry the investigation of its organs so far that we could tell the part played by the single atoms in vital functions. In every experiment on living organisms there must remain some uncertainty as regards the physical conditions to which they are subjected, and the idea suggests itself that the minimal freedom we must allow the organism will be just large enough to permit it, so to say, to hide its ultimate secrets from us.

Or this, from the physicist Arthur Compton:

A set of known physical conditions is not adequate to specify precisely what a forth- coming event will be. These conditions, insofar as they can be known, define instead a range of possible events from among which some particular event will occur. When one exercises freedom, by his act of choice he is himself adding a factor not supplied by the physical conditions and is thus himself determining what will occur. That he does so is known only to the person himself. From the outside one can see in his act only the working of physical law.

So, my second question is same as the question put forth by Scott_Aaronson in his seminal work "Ghost in Quantum Turing Machine": "Does quantum mechanics (specifically, say, the No-Cloning Theorem or the uncertainty principle) put interesting limits on an external agent’s ability to scan, copy, and predict human brains and other complicated biological systems, or doesn’t it?"
.............
Note: The material for this thread is cited from the following:
Scott Aaronson. “Scott_Aaronson_Ghost in Quantum Turing Machine”.
https://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/giqtm3.pdf

Scott has cited the following papers (pertaining to this thread) in his paper:

S. M. Shieber, editor. The Turing Test: Verbal Behavior as the Hallmark of Intelligence. Bradford Books, 2004.
A. Hodges. Alan Turing: The Enigma. Princeton University Press, 2012. Centenary edition.”
N. Bohr. Atomic Physics and Human Knowledge. Dover, 2010. First published 1961.
A. H. Compton. Science and Man’s freedom. The Atlantic, 200(4):71–74, October 1957
.............

...
A fine question, mon brave!

You'll recall the excellent movie Blade Runner, where the background is distinguishing factory-made autonomous human-look-alikes ('replicants') from humans. It's based on Philip K. Dick's novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? where this aspect of the story is more central. In particular, in the novel, but only very faintly in the movie, the replicant-hunter Decker finds that the makers of replicants keenly follow each test used by the hunters to distinguish the replicants, and adapt to defeat it, since any other choice would be bad for sales.

In other words, he pictures a situation where humans have a vested interest in making sure the replicants evolve closer and closer to humans. The problems, particularly with DNA, have become much more obvious since then, but the idea is provocative, if nothing else.

Will factories ultimately turn out replicants who can biologically breed with humans?

Stay tuned.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I do not agree. If you wish I can clarify.
I think that would risk an unnecessary tangent (part of my point in itself). It’s worth noting that I’m talking about religion as very specifically “a defined set of beliefs and practices”, distinct from more general ideas and beliefs about the existence of gods, spirits and the like.

What you say does not invalidate what Scott said or what I said by paraphrasing him. We have a physical code. In case of brains we have none.
Fair, maybe I’m misunderstanding your underlying point. Are you suggesting that we don’t yet know the “code” of the human brain or that we never can because you believe we’re definitely more than “just” machines processing instructions?

I do not understand this.
You were talking about humans just being automatons if our “code” was known and seemed to imply that would be a bad thing or even couldn’t be true. I’m suggesting that we might just be automatons (albeit very complex ones) and that wouldn’t be a bad (or good) thing in itself.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Thanks for this. You raise a topic that I have tried to raise here and there.

I think that we can look to complexity science and chaos theory to see the unpredictability of future events manifest on a level more practical and abstract than quantum physics. If you look at the way an individual neuron interacts with other neurons you have a great analogy for free will itself...a neuron is influenced by a gradient of electrical potential across its membrane brought about by the action potentials of other neurons...some neurons "hyperpolarize" that gradient while others cause "depolarization". Given the often very numerous neuron interconnections the sum total of those influences creates a very nuanced environment for a sufficient hyperpolarization to reach the threshold for that neuron to then fire its own action potential. Now add another layer on top of that for all the other complex systems involved that might influence neural behavior from the biological to the human social/cultural. Free will then is the realization that an agent exists in a node of this interconnected complexity that significantly can determine the action that node takes based on how that node receives and processes complex input.

The key idea here is that complex, adaptive systems are always found in similar circumstances...systems that have evolved into more or less persistent forms that are in interaction with other complex systems which themselves have evolved into persistent forms. There is a great limit to the ability of any computational device to predict the behavior of any element of such interwoven systems too far into the future. So the idea that a computer, which is made entirely of logical code can one day emulate the human brain is incorrect but for only one reason...logical code must accept real time input and as soon as that happens, if you can create a code system that can persist in achieving the adaptability of the AI over a long period of time in the context of real time, significant input from the environment, THEN you might have a conscious artificial intelligence.

So, in principle, you believe that our intelligence is computational and sufficiently complex code can engender consciousness?

The point of the thread, including the quotes of Turing, Bohr, Compton, and also the paper of Scott Aaronson, was to raise questions.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I think that would risk an unnecessary tangent (part of my point in itself). It’s worth noting that I’m talking about religion as very specifically “a defined set of beliefs and practices”, distinct from more general ideas and beliefs about the existence of gods, spirits and the like.

I have same view of religion.

Fair, maybe I’m misunderstanding your underlying point. Are you suggesting that we don’t yet know the “code” of the human brain or that we never can because you believe we’re definitely more than “just” machines processing instructions?

Both, the latter more fundamentally.

You were talking about humans just being automatons if our “code” was known and seemed to imply that would be a bad thing or even couldn’t be true. I’m suggesting that we might just be automatons (albeit very complex ones) and that wouldn’t be a bad (or good) thing in itself.

I did not mean that. Scott did not mean that. Scott you will note does not invoke Gödel’s incompleteness theorem. But simply points out the ‘knowability’ of code running an AI, however complex. OTOH, as pointed by Turing, Bohr, and Compton, in the OP, there is a fundamental constrain that will not allow us similar ‘knowability’ in case of humans.

Please also note the following.

I think the following is pertinent to this discussion.

The four biggest challenges in brain simulation

Some aspects of mind, such as understanding, agency and consciousness, might never be captured by digital brain simulations. Simulations that lack a representation of consciousness might be of limited use in understanding phenomena as complex as psychiatric conditions.

Is consciousness, the ability to discern and enjoy qualitative feelings, computable?

Or can, we being part of nature, understand nature 100%? We are supposedly created by nature. What makes you think that a product can understand the machine that manufactures it? How can an effect decipher the cause? Can a product or a effect objectively decipher truth value of propositions related to its origination? Can a created character determine about its author?

I believe that consciousness is not a product nor is an effect and thus is True and can determine the truth value of propositions.

...
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
So, in principle, you believe that our intelligence is computational and sufficiently complex code can engender consciousness?

It's not the code that needs to be complex but the AI or organism has to perpetuate even as it interacts with reality. Consciousness is not so much a static property of something as it is an emergent, systemic quality of an organism in interaction with a dynamic environment. That interaction allows the organism to persist under a variety of circumstances. Consciousness is the ability to use sensory input and memory to quickly respond to the environment in a way that is much more adaptable than the environment is intentional. If we can create a machine that can do that to our own standards, then it will effectively be as conscious as we are.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The question of identity under such conditions as a transfer of consciousness from one body to another or the duplication of a conscious body is interesting. But if consciousness and self identity is a property of the body then the answer is simple if bizarre...identity belongs to the body that harbors it. So having the fullness of someone's memories means that you are that person AND encountering a person with the same memories means that you have a shared historical existence but once your bodies diverged you are growing onto two different people. It is just that you now have this really, really close sibling. Bizarre, but simple.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It's not the code that needs to be complex but the AI or organism has to perpetuate even as it interacts with reality. Consciousness is not so much a static property of something as it is an emergent, systemic quality of an organism in interaction with a dynamic environment. That interaction allows the organism to persist under a variety of circumstances. Consciousness is the ability to use sensory input and memory to quickly respond to the environment in a way that is much more adaptable than the environment is intentional. If we can create a machine that can do that to our own standards, then it will effectively be as conscious as we are.

In my definition, consciousness is the ability to discern — awareness of the subject-self, cognition of objects and phenomenal sensations.

At the risk of sounding unfashionable, I will say that the self awareness “I am”, is true, unborn, God, and is not replicable or computable, notwithstanding what abacus mystic fanboys may promise.

:)
 
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