Miracles are evidence there is no God(s)

[SalixIncendium]

God damn Your reading comprehension is terrible, son. I just said I wasn't making any assertion or trying to prove anything.

You're right. It is.

But it seems to only happen when your posts. Why do you think that is?

And please don't call me "son." I'm quite certain I'm older than you, therefore, it's condescending (not that you ad hominem wasn't).

 

[Father Heathen]

Sure... all you had to do was get rid of the "there could be" that prefaced the statement.

I edited it to be less confusing.

Person A claims @SalixIncendium favorite movie is Baby Geniuses.
Person B claims @SalixIncendium enjoys basket weaving.
Person C claims @SalixIncendium is an expert jaw harpist.
Person D claims @SalixIncendium doesn't exist.

That he does exist proves person D wrong but it doesn't prove person A, B, or C right.
That was all I was trying to convey.

 

[Father Heathen]

But it seems to only happen when your posts. Why do you think that is?

Their altitude?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How can there be truth to a core idea when then premise to that core idea is false?

One example: try seeing if it works with "all" changed to "most."

And I didn't even get into the "miracles happen to people of all faiths" statement, which is also false.

Again: try giving him the benefit of the doubt and see if there's a version of the statement you would agree with.

For instance, if he had said "miracle claims are a near-universal aspect of theistic religion," would you have the same objection?

Here's an even better better idea: Atheists in general should stop lumping all religions into their personal conceptualization of religion.

I get that your own religion may be personally important to you, but it's still worth recognizing the makeup of the religious landscape. Just Christianity and Islam by themselves account for about two thirds of the religious landscape. The full impact of any modern polytheistic religion is less than the rounding error on the impact of monotheism.

This is what I was getting at when I mentioned "edge cases." A statement about "religion in general" that is only correct for Christianity and Islam is still correct most of the time... even if it's completely incorrect for every single other religion.

 

[leroy]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of all faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

Each miracle claim stands or falls by their own merits.

If you provide good evidence for a Muslim Miracle this would count as “good evidence” for Islam……..and falsifying a Muslim miracle does nothing to falsify a Christian Miracle.

My view is that there is good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus and no other religion can provide equivalent evidence for their miracles.


¿can you give an example of a non-christian miracle that is supported by evidnece?

1. 
   

   [*]People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
   [*]Multiple intervening Gods exist
   [*]The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
   [*]There is a natural explanation for all miracles

Your alternatives are not mutually exclusive.

A combination of 1,3 and 4 could be true

- Some miracle claims are false

- Some miracles are consistent with many religions (Jesus could hill a Muslim person for example)

- Some alleged miracles could have naturalistic explanations.

So in response to your question I would say that there are no real miracles that are inconsistent with the Christian God and there are Real miracles that are only consistent with the Christian God (the resurrection of Jesus for example)

No Christian miracles are ether

Lies, delusions, mistakes or miracles that where created by the chriatian god and where wrongly attributed to an other God

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're right. It is.

But it seems to only happen when your posts. Why do you think that is?

And please don't call me "son." I'm quite certain I'm older than you, therefore, it's condescending (not that you ad hominem wasn't).

What ad hom?

 

[George-ananda]

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

I'll go with:

5. The loving forces in the universe are not too concerned with human religious labeling differences.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Each miracle claim stands or falls by their own merits.

If you provide good evidence for a Muslim Miracle this would count as “good evidence” for Islam……..and falsifying a Muslim miracle does nothing to falsify a Christian Miracle.

My view is that there is good evidence for the resurrection of Jesus and no other religion can provide equivalent evidence for their miracles.

Here's the best-attested miracle claim I've ever seen:

Ganesha drinking milk miracle - Wikipedia

Can you provide better evidence for any Christian miracle claim?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll go with:

5. The loving forces in the universe are not too concerned with human religious labeling differences.

This would still imply that every exclusivist religion is wrong, though.

 

[George-ananda]

This would still imply that every exclusivist religion is wrong, though.

Only if those exclusivist religions have the belief that miracles can only happen through their religion.

 

[Sheldon]

How can there be truth to a core idea when then premise to that core idea is false?

I think the premise over reached, what if we change it to "many religions", instead of every religion?

Personally I think miracles are defined as argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies anyway, namely an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency. Not having an alternative claim, explanation or falsifying evidence does not logically make a bare claim valid.

 

[Sheldon]

The loving forces in the universe are not too concerned with human religious labeling differences.

Fine, but this has the disadvantage of being a subjective unevidenced opinion, and looks a lot like a begging the question fallacy.

 

[lukethethird]

Well, I suppose if Jesus hadn't come down to earth when he did and performed miracles everywhere he went we wouldn't be in this pickle.

 

[George-ananda]

Fine, but this has the disadvantage of being a subjective unevidenced opinion, and looks a lot like a begging the question fallacy.

It is my opinion formed through consideration of the real world facts on miracles and the explanations of those claiming insight into the deeper nature of the universe.

This is all outside the realm of science and physical proof at this time and I accept that.

 

[leroy]

Here's the best-attested miracle claim I've ever seen:

Ganesha drinking milk miracle - Wikipedia

Can you provide better evidence for any Christian miracle claim?

I am not familiar with that miracle, but sure if you show that there is evidence for that miracle I would have to accept it as evidence for “Ganesha”

Since I have no idea about this miracle the alternaives that exist in my mind are

1 it fake (a lie)

2 it’s a mistake (a delusion, or it has a natural explanation)

3 it´s a true miracle

If you show that 3 is the best explanation I would have to accept that there is evidence for non-Christian miracles.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Only if those exclusivist religions have the belief that miracles can only happen through their religion.

Or at only least by the god(s) of their religion, and a tenet of their religion is that they know (or at least have general parameters around) how their god(s) dole out miracles.

 

[Audie]

Every religion worships there own God(s) and denies the existence of other Gods. However, miracles happen to people of all faiths. From this we can conclude that either:

1. People of your faith are telling the truth and everyone else is mislead or lying about miracles
2. Multiple intervening Gods exist
3. The God(s) of your faith performs miracles for non-believers too, or
4. There is a natural explanation for all miracles

With more education, technological advances, communication, etc. I think number four is becoming more and more likely.

What is a miracle

 

[lukethethird]

Who are these gods and why are they being so petty?

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

Your premise is false. Learn about other religions before you make "every religion" statements.

Terrible wording on my part. I fixed the OP to read "many religions"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not familiar with that miracle, but sure if you show that there is evidence for that miracle I would have to accept it as evidence for “Ganesha”

Since I have no idea about this miracle the alternaives that exist in my mind are

1 it fake (a lie)

2 it’s a mistake (a delusion, or it has a natural explanation)

3 it´s a true miracle

If you show that 3 is the best explanation I would have to accept that there is evidence for non-Christian miracles.

I'd go with 2 (and possibly occasionally 1).

Just so I'm clear: I don't think the claims are credible enough to accept as true; I just think that all the other miracle claims I've ever seen are less credible than this one.

I also think that if you can't demonstrate that your favourite miracle claim isn't at least as credible as the "milk miracle" - i.e. a claim we can probably both agree isn't well-supported enough to be believed - then I won't see any need to take your claim seriously.