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Michelle Duggar: Overpopulation Is a Lie

idav

Being
Premium Member
So far as I've heard, human consumption is unsustainable. In practice, that seems to mean either (1) we are consuming resources (such as petroleum) that cannot be replaced and will sooner or later be exhausted, or (2) we are consuming resources (such as many species of fish) faster than they be replaced.

If those things are true (and very few scientists who have studied the matter would say they are not the case), then we are most likely headed for a population collapse at some point. That's to say, our current population levels seem to be dependent on unsustainable consumption.

In theory I guess, everyone on earth could voluntarily cut back to a sustainable level of resource consumption -- and that might solve the problem without a population collapse -- but that's mere theory. In practice, it won't happen. Americans, for instance, are not going to willingly cut back their consumption of the earth's resources.
It won't happen in practice because the technologies to solve the problems are guided by how much a money a company will make. It will never correlate to the technology humans really need especially if it is something like feeding everyone without the big companies making billions.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Michelle Duggar aside (I think she and her husband are probably ape **** crazy, but that's their business), you live in Canada, right?
Oh, so now we can't talk about cross-border issues? Didn't you post a thread about the father in Toronto, who was interrogated by police after his young daughter drew a picture of a gun while at school?
Have you ever been on a plane and looked out the window? I have - many, many times in my life, crossing several continents and many countries around the world.

There's lots of land, lots of resources - plenty to provide for many, many more people.

The key to making it work for everyone is resource management.
I would suggest stepping out of that plane...as some other posts here have done, and take a look around at water availability and soil erosion and depletion, then ask how many people can survive on a barren landscape? Remember, it wasn't the cold that killed most of the exiles that Stalin sent to Siberia in the 1930's. They didn't have to be locked up....just being out in that Northern boreal forest, where game and edible plants were scarce, was enough for the majority to die of starvation, even out there in all that land!
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Most couples cannot afford so many children.

If you cannot take care of your own children
then you are overpopulating your community.
(beyond it's ability to fund, provide and support)

Just WHO is it that is supposed to provide for them?

I can't speak for all large families, but the Duggars are debt-free.

I grew up in a town where there was a family of 17 children; they were also debt-free. They lived in a relatively small house and lived within their means. One of their family members owned their own farm as well; their kids helped on the family farm and they often used their own cattle, fields, etc. for their nourishment.

As for the consumption of resources, I've seen single people be far more wasteful than large families.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
You know, humans aren't the only species that call the Earth home. Shouldn't they be left some room and resources as well?

For those who don't think we are overpopulated now, do you think there will ever be a time that we will be? Do you think that we are on an ultimately sustainable path, or do you think that we merely haven't hit the wall yet, and therefore, it's not our problem?
That's a good point to underline, because as another post noted that we are presently using over half the world's available land surface for agriculture (farming and grazing livestock), we have no idea how much land is needed for enough of the plants and animals necessary to keep the Earth's biosphere functioning. I know...the oceans play a big role also in processing wastes, sequestering excess carbon, and replenishing atmospheric oxygen levels etc., but a lot goes on in the soil that is necessary to maintain our extremely large human population, and we have no idea how big the non-agriculture, non-urban environment has to be to keep everything running smoothly! Since it's not running smoothly now, I think it's a safe presumption that we are past a few tipping points already. A book I read recently - written in 20007 by James Lovelock, makes the point that the more forests and tall grasslands get cut down or burned out and replaced with farming, the less the planet has for the purpose of absorbing carbon. Agriculture is carbon-intensive...especially the way it is practiced post-WWII, but the present world population is already likely too large to go back to the old ways my father did it -- with crop rotation and pasturing livestock as part of that rotation. Today's farming...even in most third world countries, is planting monocultured plantations of Monsanto hybrid seeds, and feeding them oil-based fertilizers to provide the necessary yields....especially as the soil becomes burned out and depleted. There is a point of diminishing returns for all this "Green Revolution" agriculture, and we may have already reached that point. And yields will gradually decline, even not including droughts, heat waves and flood damage.

I should point out that Lovelock states that picking a number for what is a sustainable human population on Earth is like throwing darts at a target. There are so many variables, depending on how we live (energy and resource consumption) and whether we are willing to reduce or can reduce our environmental impact with a world economic system that has a foot stuck on the gas pedal forcing more growth and more consumption. And the chilling point about environmental decline is that the potential sustainable population number is dropping at a time when population is still increasing.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
So far as I've heard, human consumption is unsustainable. In practice, that seems to mean either (1) we are consuming resources (such as petroleum) that cannot be replaced and will sooner or later be exhausted, or (2) we are consuming resources (such as many species of fish) faster than they be replaced.

If those things are true (and very few scientists who have studied the matter would say they are not the case), then we are most likely headed for a population collapse at some point. That's to say, our current population levels seem to be dependent on unsustainable consumption.

In theory I guess, everyone on earth could voluntarily cut back to a sustainable level of resource consumption -- and that might solve the problem without a population collapse -- but that's mere theory. In practice, it won't happen. Americans, for instance, are not going to willingly cut back their consumption of the earth's resources.
You might want to check out another depressing book I got: The End of Growth: Adapting to Our New Economic Reality by Richard Heinberg. He goes into detail about subjects that are very poorly covered, and are already having an enormous economic and environmental impact, like the one you mentioned -- declining non-renewable resources. It's not just oil, or easy to access oil that's running out. So is everything else, from gold to iron to copper and zinc, to rare earth elements like Neodymium; and the problem is that as they decline, the ore grades are increasingly reduced.....so, as the years go on, more and more rock has to be excavated to get at the iron, copper and gold that's needed, and a lot more energy is needed in smelting, as well as a lot more piles of earth that is often contaminated with mercury, is left behind from the mining and milling operations. So, I guess it's back to the caves for the survivors of this century!
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Oh, so now we can't talk about cross-border issues? Didn't you post a thread about the father in Toronto, who was interrogated by police after his young daughter drew a picture of a gun while at school?


Wow, you are a bit defensive. That was not at ALL what I meant. I mean, come on - where did all that anger come from? Wow.

What I meant is that Canada is very sparsely populated - now I know in some areas, that's for good reason, but still - Canada could sustain more people than it does. And so could the US.

And even after you apparently "got" what I was trying to say (about the amount of land), you STILL left your first line in the post.

Interesting.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Wow, you are a bit defensive. That was not at ALL what I meant. I mean, come on - where did all that anger come from? Wow.

What I meant is that Canada is very sparsely populated - now I know in some areas, that's for good reason, but still - Canada could sustain more people than it does. And so could the US.

And even after you apparently "got" what I was trying to say (about the amount of land), you STILL left your first line in the post.

Interesting.
Sounds like you're projecting again! Where did you get the idea I was angry just because I called you on making a statement that sounded suspiciously like butt out of U.S. issues that don't pertain to Canada. You didn't explain the wide open spaces point. But, now that you have, most of Canada is sparsely settled for very good reasons -- because of climate and geography. Once we move north and cross into the very old segment of continental plate called the Canadian Shield, we find a region with virtually no soil and decaying plant and animal matter that piles up in to bogs called muskeg, that would have rotted, except for the fact that winter up till now would last over half the year.... 9 or 10 months out of the year north of the 60th parallel. Even with our present conditions of global warming, the northern boreal forests and muskeg swamps do not have a soil base to support any sort of conventional agriculture to support populations that might start fleeing north in a few decades to escape what's going on and will get worse down where you live.

And as mentioned on a previous post, we don't understand enough about the natural ecological niches we are destroying, to determine how much of the planet can be allocated for human agriculture and cities, and how much would be needed to stay in a natural state to keep a biosphere functioning.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Sounds like you're projecting again!

Again? Nope, not my style.

Where did you get the idea I was angry just because I called you on making a statement that sounded suspiciously like butt out of U.S. issues that don't pertain to Canada.

No. This is YOU projecting. This is so far from what I meant - it never even crossed my mind. But it crossed yours. Interesting.

You didn't explain the wide open spaces point.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Next time I'll try to make things very plain.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Here's an organization those who would like to do something about the population to join,..but count me out...;)

The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
I get a broken link when I try to click on it. Regardless, I'm pretty sure it would be some sort of satire site. I remember the Howard The Duck comic strip back in the 70's, ran a series about a nihilistic terrorist group that had created a doomsday device for this purpose. The serious population-reduction groups that I've noticed want rapid population decline to something that could be a permanent human population. It's the multitudes living in denial today that are the real voluntary human extinction movement.
 

blackout

Violet.
I can't speak for all large families, but the Duggars are debt-free.

I grew up in a town where there was a family of 17 children; they were also debt-free. They lived in a relatively small house and lived within their means. One of their family members owned their own farm as well; their kids helped on the family farm and they often used their own cattle, fields, etc. for their nourishment.

As for the consumption of resources, I've seen single people be far more wasteful than large families.

This is why I said Most.


(I don't watch the show mySelf, but it does make one wonder how much income they secure from the reality show.)



I'm not talking about 'waste' BTW'.
I'm talking about overextending yourSelf and your family
out onto the community at large.

Public schools cannot afford
for example
to school your 17 children.
Or even your 8, 7, or 6 children.
At some point you become a burden to the system,
to the resources of the community
if you cannot pick up the economic slack.

It is possible that the public schools do charge a fee
for more than a certain number of children from one household
in the town schools.
But what happens then when the family cannot afford it?

I'm just saying,
it's a burden on the resources of your community
to just go popping out kids willy nilly
if you cannot PROPERLY and responsibly
provide for them
YOURSELF.

To do this on purpose,
whether it be for the sake of collecting welfare checks
or for the sake of some religious 'vision' or belief
is irresponsible
and creates PRACTICAL/communal overpopulation.


 
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