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Messianic Christology

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually, if you look in Zech. 3:8, you'll see that Joshua the high priest is not the same as the "branch". there you have G-d telling Joshua that He will bring the "branch". It doesn't change your point though, because there is someone who did fulfill these prophecies: Zerubabel. And that kind of fits much better with the
context.

You are going to have to explain more :) as 8 says -

Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

And 6:

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Zerubbabel isn't there, or mentioned, so why the Behold - to Joshua?

I can see why some might think
Zerubbabel is the branch though - looking at his history.

But wasn't his family cursed by YHVH?

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roger1440

I do stuff
If you really don't believe in the divine origin of scripture, where has it been changed?
You seem to be implying it has not been changed. What manuscript are you using for a point of reference? In order to state the Bible has not been changed a comparison between the original Bible and Today’s Bible must be made. What are you working with?
 

Intojoy

Member
You didn't reply to my post about THE BRANCH - whom you were erroneously claiming was another verse about a future Jesus.

Joshua is THE BRANCH.

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

That BRANCH - JOSHUA son of Josedech.


Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Zec 6:14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.

Zec 7:1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;

Remember Zechariah - from Isaiah 8:2

Isa 8:2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.

Every Tanakh verse you have claimed was about Jesus - has been proven otherwise.

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Yeah that's a negative.
 

Intojoy

Member
I happened to stumble in here and read a lot of what was proposed and then a lot of the replies. I have to admit knowing nothing much abut the texts being cited, however, in first reading the initial laying out of points/"proofs"/whatever by @Intojoy, I found myself nothing but confused. Half the time he made claim that a particular passage he quoted contained "teachings" about a thing (like that the Messiah would be a king, or from this line or that, or the son of God), I just didn't see it. The things he said were proved just weren't in the texts. So, yeah, my confusion was complete... that is until I read some of the replies from the actual learned folks like @Tumah and @Ingledsva - and saw how he simply cut those texts out of a greater context that had nothing to do with what was being claimed - and with the additional context and explanations, it all became much more clear. I wasn't seeing the things being claimed because they weren't there.

In conclusion, @Intojoy - if you're looking to help people realize something, or are looking to broaden the base of people who believe whatever it is you believe - you're completely and utterly failing. Based on what's presented here I simply can't conscionably take you seriously. Add on top of that some of your flippant and/or "poor-attempt-at-insult" replies and... well... I think I already mentioned something about "failing". So yeah.
Delicious
 

Intojoy

Member
Well it's just a matter of time before it's found and I'll be 86d

Fare well my friends. Think of me over a maitai

Shaloha
 

Intojoy

Member
47803b8d43b1e9662818a1634b36ec6f.jpg
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You are going to have to explain more :) as 8 says -

Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

To me it looks like Joshua and co. are being told that G-d will bring His servant "Branch".
Not so related, I don't think "they are men wondered at" is a correct translation. מופת is a noun not an adjective (Deut. 13:2). So אנשי מופת means "men of a wonder (wonder being synonymous with a sign- something that causes wonderment)".

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Zerubbabel isn't there, or mentioned, so why the Behold - to Joshua?

I can see why some might think
Zerubbabel is the branch though - looking at his history.

I see where you're coming from, but Zerubabel was already prophesied explicitly as the one to build the Temple in 4:9. So this verse is G-d telling the High Priest (presumably a High priest would have some vested interest in a Temple being built) that He's going to send someone to build it. I'm guessing Joshua is also being knighted here with the crowns since he along with Zerubabel are the two leaders who led the people out of Babylon.

Also, the actual translation of the word we are translating as "branch" is really "sprout" (you have this root word in Gen. 2:5 "before it had sprouted"). If Zerubabel is a contraction of "Zeru'a Bavel" or even "Zera Bavel", which mean seed/ed in Babel, then calling him the "sprout" would imply he's fulfilling a purpose directed for him.

But wasn't his family cursed by YHVH?
I don't see one as having anything to do with the other. He's not sitting on the throne, he's building the Temple.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
If you really don't believe in the divine origin of scripture, where has it been changed?

Furthermore buddahead, how is it that the bible has not changed in the last 5-600 years? I don't think it's changed ever. But just to humor you a bit and to take your reasoning to its logical conclusion, just where in the last 1000 years has there been a bungling as buddah's words have been bungled since 600 BC?
Even if the first Bible was found how can it possibly be authenticated as the first Bible? Would it have to be accommodated with a certificate of authenticity? Or maybe somewhere on the first page in fine print it would say “first edition”?

Dowload-Certificate-of-Authenticity-Template-Microsoft-Word.jpg
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
To me it looks like Joshua and co. are being told that G-d will bring His servant "Branch".
Not so related, I don't think "they are men wondered at" is a correct translation. מופת is a noun not an adjective (Deut. 13:2). So אנשי מופת means "men of a wonder (wonder being synonymous with a sign- something that causes wonderment)".

I see where you're coming from, but Zerubabel was already prophesied explicitly as the one to build the Temple in 4:9. So this verse is G-d telling the High Priest (presumably a High priest would have some vested interest in a Temple being built) that He's going to send someone to build it. I'm guessing Joshua is also being knighted here with the crowns since he along with Zerubabel are the two leaders who led the people out of Babylon.

Also, the actual translation of the word we are translating as "branch" is really "sprout" (you have this root word in Gen. 2:5 "before it had sprouted"). If Zerubabel is a contraction of "Zeru'a Bavel" or even "Zera Bavel", which mean seed/ed in Babel, then calling him the "sprout" would imply he's fulfilling a purpose directed for him.

I don't see one as having anything to do with the other. He's not sitting on the throne, he's building the Temple.

Being "seeded" in Babel - actually only means he was conceived in Babel.

"If the name Zerubbabel is Hebrew, it may be a contraction of Zərua' Bāvel (Hebrew: זְרוּעַ בָּבֶל‎), meaning "the one sown of Babylon", and referring to a child conceived and born in Babylon; or perhaps even, Zərûy Bāvel (Hebrew: זְרוּי בָּבֶל‎), meaning, "the winnowed of Babylon", in the sense of being exiled in Babylon. If the name is not Hebrew but Assyrian-Babylonian, it may contract, Zəru Bābel, meaning, "Seed of Babylon", the one conceived in Babylon. (Contrast the related Hebrew form for "Seed": Hebrew: זֶרַע‎, Zera '.)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel

The problem though is that they are together in these specific verses. Joshua is with Zerubbabel leading the people out of Babylon. They are together building the temple, etc. And the verse makes it appear that Joshua is being called the Branch.

Supposedly Zerubabbel was given the task of rebuilding the Temple in the second year of the reign of Darius I (520 BC), along with the high priest Joshua son of Jehozadak.

We are also told that Sheshbazzar laid the foundation stones for the temple. It is speculated that Sheshbazzar was in fact Shenazzar, Zerubabbel's uncle (mentioned in Chronicles); Sheshbazzar began the work and Zerubbabel finished it, along with Joshua.

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"Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
Zec 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

"There is a debate in the Biblical scholarly community as to who the "sons of oil" is referencing. Though conventional wisdom often understood it to be Zerubbabel and Joshua, Boda argues that, because of the important role that prophets were said to play in the reconstruction of the Temple in Zech 8:9, Haggai and Zechariah are the sons of oil.

The controversy regarding the prophesies about Zerubbabel relate back to this quote about Zerubbabel laying the foundation of the temple and eventually completing it. Zech 3:8 and 6:12 refer to a man called "The Branch." In Zech 6, the Lord tells Zechariah to gather silver and gold from the returned exiles (who had come back to Judah from Babylonia), and to go to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah (members of the Davidic lineage). Then Zechariah is told to fashion a crown out of the silver and gold, set it on the head of Joshua son of Jehozadak, and tell him the following:

"Thus says the Lord of hosts: Here is a man whose name is Branch (Hebrew: Zemah): for he shall branch out in his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord … he shall bear royal honor, and shall sit upon his throne and rule. There shall be a priest by his throne, with peaceful understanding between the two of them." (Zech 6:12–13)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel

Joshua is crowned - thus sits on a throne, - and was there at the Temple build, etc.

To me the most telling though - is the fact that the two men were together often, - but there is no mention of Zerubbabel in the "naming" the Branch verse.

If he were the Branch - they would have named him - as they knew him.

Plus his line was cursed. He can't be crowned. A governor maybe.

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Intojoy

Member
Even if the first Bible was found how can it possibly be authenticated as the first Bible? Would it have to be accommodated with a certificate of authenticity? Or maybe somewhere on the first page in fine print it would say “first edition”?

Dowload-Certificate-of-Authenticity-Template-Microsoft-Word.jpg
Listen son,
If we can view a bible from say the 16th century, and it matches 2016, what then?

The "bible was changed over n over" is gettin old. Son!
 
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