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Discussion in 'Jehovah's Witnesses DIR' started by may, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    the one i have we got from a very old book shop its Josephus the complete works published by pickering and inglis ltd.
     
  2. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Thanks May, I will look and see if I can find it somewhere, do you know if I could get one in a Libary ?... :)
     
  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    not sure, i have never tried they may do , give it a go .
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes as you say , truth is truth now ,as it always has been . and the bible is the truth , many say that JW are false prophets because sometimes things are not quite clear to them ,but this does not make them false prophets , we can see that even Jesus early diciples did not always have the correct understanding about things , but this did not make Jesus reject them
    The apostles and other early Christian disciples had certain wrong expectations, but the Bible does not classify them with the "false prophets."—See Luke 19:11; John 21:22, 23; Acts 1:6, 7.​

    Nathan the prophet encouraged King David to go ahead with what was in his heart regarding the building of a house for Jehovah’s worship. But later Jehovah told Nathan to inform David that he was not the one who would build it. Jehovah did not reject Nathan for what he had said earlier but continued to use him because he humbly corrected the matter when Jehovah made it plain to him.—1 Chron. 17:1-4, 15 so it is the same with JW along the way we may not always have been quite right with the understanding , but in Jehovahs time he reveals it . many things have been revealed in these last days and the understanding becomes clearer .also in a way it serves the purpose of sifting out those who are not really serving Jehovah for the right motives , those who do not show humility by being willing to admit that the understanding was not quite right and progress to new understanding in these last days Jehovah does not use proud ones who are not willing to be corrected .JW have been corrected many many times and they are willing to recognize Jehovahs direction. at one time the early bible students though that all christians would be going to heaven, but now Jehovah has revealed and given understanding about the great crowd in revelation 7;9 and the other sheep in John 10;16 this understanding would then make there earlier thoughts outdated so we have to move ahead other wise we get left behind in the dark outside hope that makes sense:)

     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Elijah lived up to his name, which means "My God Is Jehovah.....hmmmmmmmmm:)

     
  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Okaaay. Doesn't really answer my question though. Has Elijah come to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers? Has Ireal been gathered? I'm just curious about what the JWs beleive about this. For once in my life, I'm looking for a straight answer, not a debate.
     
  7. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May, Yes I am with you on the fact that the bible is truth, and I understand that Jesus disciples never understood at times but Jesus was there to correct them in their understanding at the time, Jesus told them before He went back up to heaven that when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will lead them into all truth, which I believe he did, and from then onwards those inspired writers never made mistakes again, the Holy Spririt led them into all truth.. As humans we all make mistakes and get things wrong, but if these people at the JWS Head quarters where being directed by the Spirit then there would have been no room for mistakes or lack of understanding. God used Humans to write the bible perfectly, God is perfectly able to communicate what he wants to imperfect humans, he did it once what would stop him from doing it again.

    I feel there is a difference between misunderstanding a passage of Scripture but to put out dates after dates for Jesus return and armageddon, is not just a misunderstanding, the WT have been predicting these dates for over a 100 years starting in the 1800's..I don't believe that the Spirit of God is directing this organization..We can't say that the spirit is directing the Organization then when nothing comes to pass blame it on imperfect humans for their lack of understanding, Doesn't say a lot for the power of God that He is unable to get his message though to imperfect men..Think about it ...If the organization was truely Spirit directed they would have got something right ?. everything they have predicted has failed, not just in one thing but everything. How do you see nostradamus, was he a true or a false prophet.

    Anyway May, I shall check out the library to see if I can get the books, thaks for your help...take care :)
     
  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    the spiritual jews who are the 144,000 started to be gathered right back in the first century C.E onward .i think i am correct in saying that there is only a remnent left on the earth now ,as most have already died . and soon after Jesus presence began in 1914 they would have been ressurrected to be with Jesus in the heavens
    Paul indicated that their resurrection commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence in 1914 and that some are resurrected before others. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their coming to life occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.... but as the bible tells us they are only a little flock conpared to the great crowd that will inherit the earth , and now the gathering of the great crowd is going on

     
  9. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    but they were right Jesus was made king in 1914 in the heavens , at one time they did not understand this but now they do , it has been revealed and like i said they now understand because it did not happen untill the last days we have to keep awake i find the new thoughts that happen really enlightening rather than the opposite , and when i read back and see how they have progressed it is so thrilling to know that i belong to an enlightened people that is being given greater responsibility in these last days
    (Luke 12:44) I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings


    (Matthew 25:21) His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master

    And the Lord said: "Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? ....luke 12;42 ,,yes in his time he will reveal


    (Psalm 97:11) Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, And rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart


    (Daniel 12:9) And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end

     
  11. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May, In light of these Scriptures, do you see them as a warning from God or something to be overlooked, There is nothing in those passages that says, " listen to these warnings but if there arises among you someone with new light then just ignore what has been writen here "...

    "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deuteronomy 13:1-3)


    "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18:22)
    In these two passages alone, we have very specific instructions about discerning truth from error, specifically with false prophets in this case. If we boil these two passages down we have the following precepts:

    1. if a prophet says something will happen and it doesn't, he is a false prophet. God said this, not the WT..

    2. if a prophet says something will happen and it does happen, yet he preaches and teaches a different god than the God revealed in the Bible, he is a false prophet. God said this too and not the WT...

    Thanks...
     
  12. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Gods Word is light, it keeps us from sin...its doesn't say it will get brighter and brighter..I also believe that all true christians are Gods faithful and discrete slaves..No faithful and discrete salve would make false prophecies and all one has to do is look at WT History...In the Awake mag 1968 it says..

    1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?...Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." (Awake, 10/8/68.)


    1976 Armageddon will come after the time period corresponding with the time between Adam's creation and Eve's creation. WT July 1976, p. 436. [compare 1966]

    1980 Three members of Governing body propose that the "generation" of people that would see Armageddon be adjusted to those who witnessed the beginning of the space age (referring to Matt. 24:29). These would be those who witnessed 1957, with the orbit of the first sputnik. Proposal rejected. Crisis of Conscience, Raymond Franz, 1983, p. 218220. [compare 1885]

    1981 The gospel preached by JWs since 1918 (about the enthronement of Christ in 1914) is a new gospel not preached during all the centuries past. WT May 1, 1981, p. 17.

    1984 Though we had false expectations in times past, who can blame us for being overanxious? "It is easy for the established churches of Christendom and other people to criticize Jehovah's Witnesses because their publications have, at times, stated that certain things could take place on certain dates. But is not such line of action in harmony with Christ's injunction to `keep on the watch'?" "Is it not far preferable to make some mistakes because of overeagerness to see God's purposes accomplished...?" WT Dec. 1, 1984, p. 1618. [comp. 1968 statement]

    That statement alone is a perfect example of how these People at the WT brain wash to keep God fearing people like yourself in their organization. No it is NOT OK to make mistakes reguardless to their overeagerness..They are playing with peoples salvation with their so called mistakes, claiming to be Gods spirit directed organization... :mad:
     
  13. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.​








    The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."—Matt. 24:42.​








    Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.​






    Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves

     
  14. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    It claims to be a prophet like Ezekiel and Jeremiah (see the Oct. 1,1982 WT p.26,27). It claims to be a mouthpiece for Jehovah God, the Creator of the universe, yet refuses to take the responsibility of a prophet. According to their Bible at Deut. 18:2022, they are false prophets when examined in the light of their own historical record.

    JWS are no different from any other Christian who is living their Life for God..are you saying that only JWS tell the truth, that is an insult to other christians..Are you saying that only JWS live a moral life, that is another insult, but of course the Bible does change the life of a sinner for the better, not just the JWS. Love among themselves, what are JWS the only Christian group that shows love..

    JWS are Good at saying that Gods word the bible has the final authority, I guess it does, only when you don't examine the WT truth in the light of Scripture..I wish you well may, thanks for the chat... :)
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    if JW are no different to the churches of christendom which claim to be christian , how come the teachings of christendom are based on pagan teachings (trinity ,immortality of the human soul, hellfire, ect ect) but our teaching is based on the bible .JW teaching is based on the bible not on babylonish teachings ,i think there is a huge differance its all about getting back to pure worship without the trappings of babylon the great ,because any who are attached to babylon the great will go down with her when Jehovah completely destroys her . i know whos side i want to be on and it certainly is not on the one that is going to be going down ,and why is babylon the great going to go down, its because of her unfaithfulness , and christendom has a very large part to play in unfaithfulness to Jehovah, infact she is a whore. that is not me saying that, it is the bible telling me that , that is why i am out of there trying to make myself clean in a spiritual way by not taking on these babylonish teachings that the churches of christendom are dishing out . some think they can get out of babylon the great , but not attach themselves to Jehovah but there is no sitting on the fench we are either for Jehovah or against Jehovah its our choice.
    And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues....REVELATION 18;4



    (2 Corinthians 6:17) "‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’"; "‘and I will take YOU in............. Faithfulness is very important to the true God so when he looked down here i wonder who he would pick to give more responsibility to, the faithful or the unfaithful, mind you ,when i look in the bible it seems to me that those who Jehovah has used in the past , have always left a bad taste with those who will not listen and with those who are rebellious

     
  16. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May, I didn't say that JWS witnesses where no different to churches of Christiandom, I said jws were no different, as in better Christians from any other individual was what I meant. You are correct in saying that you want to be on the right side, I do also, so when Gods gives us warnings then we got to heed them..How do we know what is true and what is in Error if God didnt show us in His Word what to look out for, We have been warned about false prophets and false teachings...If anyone comes along making false predictions and errors according to Gods warnings, then they have got to be disguarded...God doesn't get it wrong May, surely you can see that, has God been wrong in the past, did everything he say come to pass exactly..yes it did...The bible was writen by men moved by the Holy Spirit, it was not writen at a time when the apostles misunderstood some of what Jesus said, if that were so, the bible could not be trusted if God couldn't communicate His word accurately though men if they continued to misunderstand or keep making mistakes..
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    but if individual people have taken on the teachings of christendom, and listened to the religious leaders who are the most guilty ones, then i would say that individuals are part of babylon the great , because they are atached to her ,that is why Jehovah God says get out of her and i will take you in. false prophets bring false teachings not based on the teachings of Jesus and the bible . JW do not bring false teachings they keep on the watch to bible prophecy which becomes clearer over time because Jehovah reveals understanding at the right time ,as an example in the first century the followers of Jesus asked jesus about the kingdom,
    When Jesus was about to leave the earth, his disciples asked: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" In reply, he told them: "It does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." Even though the disciples then lacked accurate knowledge about the Kingdom, Jesus could assign them to be its proclaimers, for they would have the needed help to carry out their commission. "But you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you," Jesus added, "and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8) Under the guidance of the holy spirit, Jesus’ followers eventually would realize that the Kingdom would be a heavenly government. (John 16:12, 13) And in time the facts about that Kingdom would be proclaimed "to the most distant part of the earth .so at that time the understanding was not quite right but it was revealed over time at the right time. when Jehovah sees that it is the right time ,but in the meantime we continue to keep on the watch and keep awake, which others in christendom have not done . they did and have fallen asleep in fact they are in darkness

    "If we make the statement: ‘We are having a sharing with him,’ and yet we go on walking in the darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth."—1 John 1:6.

    For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen,,,isaiah 60;2..... This is not refering to a litral darkness but to a spiritual darkness

    Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: "I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life....John 8 ;12

     
  18. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    HI may , I believe the leaders from the WT do bring false teachings..Jesus is not a god...He is niether an angel, would an Angel create all things for himself?.

    The inspired writers of the New Testament clearly recorded their God-given understanding for us to learn by. In John 1:1 we read plainly, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
    The apostle John also writes in 1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

    In ISAIAH 43:11, Yahweh says, "There is no savior besides me."

    The apostle Peter was inspired to write about his savior in 2 PETER 1:1: "Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

    In ISAIAH 44:8, Yahweh says, "Is there any God besides me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

    The apostle Paul writes of the Israelites and says, "All ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4)

    ISAIAH 40:3 (JB) says, "Prepare in the wilderness a way for Yahweh. Make a straight path for our God across the desert."

    The Bible writer, Matthew, quotes from this passage and says it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ in MATTHEW 3:3, him being the Lord.

    The apostle Paul gives numerous references to the Deity (Godship) of Christ. ROMANS 9:5 says ". . . From whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever."

    At Col. 2:9, Paul refers to Christ being "God manifest in the flesh" when he says about Christ, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." (See also Col. 1:19.)

    Paul writes in HEBREWS 1:6, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." And in verse 8 of the same chapter it reads, "But of the Son He [Yahweh] says, `Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.'"

    In verse 10 Paul quotes from PSALM 102:25, which applied to Yahweh, and applies it to Jesus Christ: "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth," and "Thou art the same, and thy years will not come to an end."

    These are truths not grasped by the carnal mind, even as Paul writes in 1 TIMOTHY 3:16 (JB), "Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is very deep indeed, `He was made visible in the flesh, attested by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the pagans, believed in by the world, taken up in glory.'"

    What is truth, angels appearing to mohammand and Joseph smith with additional books both claiming the Koran and the book of mormon are the correct word of God, Or the WT Leaders with their truth found in their NWT Bible..Or the Catholic Church and the Pope...There is only one truth and that is found in Christ Jesus...

    (Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.) We should not accept another Jesus, another spirit, or another gospel (2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.)


    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)."
     
  19. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes there was a time when i also was lead along to believe that Jesus is God, but with accurate knowledge of the bible i now know that Jesus is not God, but he is Gods son ,i have been set free from inaccurate knowledge and now the scriptures are all in harmony
    (Romans 10:2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge

    that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him; the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened

    For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life john 3;16

    (Romans 8:32) He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things?​


    (1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.

     
  20. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May, yes I too believe Jesus is the Son of God..I believe he is the unique Son of God, He is divine..


    The divine names are applied to Christ in many passages, including these:

    "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."—Isaiah 9:6.

    "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."—Isaiah 40:3.

    "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely. And this is His name whereby He shall be called: The Lord Our Righteousness."—Jeremiah 23:5-6.

    "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,"—1 Timothy 3:16.

    6 - CHRIST HAS THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES

    Jesus Christ is shown to have the qualities of divinity—the divine attributes—in several passages, including these:

    Omnipresence:
    "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them."—Matthew 18:20.

    "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."—Matthew 28:20.

    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."—John 3:13.

    Omniscience:
    "And he said unto Him, Lord, Thou knowest all things."—John 21:17.

    "I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."—Revelation 2:23.

    Omnipotence:
    "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."—Isaiah 9:6.

    "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself."—Philippians 3:21.

    "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."—Revelation 1:8.


    7 - CHRIST HAS EVERY ATTRIBUTE OF GOD

    Christ has every quality, every attribute which belongs to the Father:

    "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."—Colossians 2:9.

    8 - CHRIST DOES THE DIVINE WORKSJesus not only has the divine attributes or qualities, but He does the things which God does.

    Creator:
    Jesus Christ is the Creator! He made us. Who are we to talk back to Him and try to denigrate Him to something lower than that which He is?

    "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made . . He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not."—John 1:3, 10.

    "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by Him, and for Him."—Colossians 1:16.

    "God . . hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds . . And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine hands."—Hebrews 1:1-2, 10.

    "And God said, let us make man in our image."—Genesis 1:26.

    Lawgiver:

    Jesus is the Lawgiver. Indeed, He is above the law! (Patriarchs and Prophets, 63:2). Seriously now, a created being could not be above the law!

    And a related point could also be mentioned: How could the "power of an endless [Greek: indissoluble] life (Hebrews 7:16), and the "fullness of the Godhead" (Colossians 2:9) be given to a created being?

    How could an angel create all things for himself..
     
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