The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Okay? Good for Gnosticism; doesn't make it true or accurate.это гностицизм
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Okay? Good for Gnosticism; doesn't make it true or accurate.это гностицизм
Ok I'm not trying to derail. I think its not just 'king of the Jews' implied by the star, because the arrival of Jesus represents a whole new order of things. It is the end of kings, the destruction of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision where the statue is made of all of the kingdoms. For it to mean king of the Jews would be very disappointing. It would just be more of the same and not a whole new order.I was not suggesting that the Tower of Babel narrative in Genesis 11 had anything to do with Babylonian astrology other than the simple fact that Babylonian ziggurats were used for better observing the stars. I was talking about the journey of the Magi possibly being inspired by a series of astronomical signs that in Babylonian astrology added up to a newborn King of the Jews. My proposition was that Matthew may have come across a detailed account of what the Wise Men said to Herod and incorporated it in his narrative.
That the Babylonians had ziggurats I do not dispute, but if the magi followed the star from their land to Israel it could mean an overturning of their king's authority. They were following the star in search of a king, but why would they be searching for a king in Israel if it were only the king of the Jews? Somehow this star represented something worldwide rather than local, and it led foreigners to Bethlehem. Just going by various other statements by Jesus that his kingdom was not 'Of this world' it seems like the star was talking about something that replaced kingdoms and alluded back to that statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision and the stone that destroyed it.Further, that Matthew had in mind a reference to the Babylonian ziggurats as pathways for gods to come down to their temples and having Babylonian astrologers implicitly admit their error by coming to pay homage to an real actual divine entity who came to earth not by any ziggurat. Matthew’s imagery is often subtle and complex.
Well maybe, but their opposition was spiritual. They were opposed to the principles upon which Babylon was founded.Opposition to the Babylonian Empire would be a natural attitude for the Hebrews after being conquered and oppressed by the Babylonians. Having God lay a heavy hand on them would be a satisfying story. In addition to being an explanation for there being different languages, the story would resonate with later generations of Jews. The widespread agriculture versus centralized power aspect might tie into another recent post of mine about major works being a centralizing tool. Sounds like this could be a new insight, to me anyway. Have to mull this over.
Ah, Ok I follow.The word ‘star’ at that time would also encompass planets, comets and so on. In the Kidger hypothesis, the star would be a nova and would not wander around. The motion that appears to be implied in Matthew 2 becomes understandable as perfectly natural when understood as the amateur Matthew copying the language used by professional astronomers without really understanding it. Or so the hypothesis goes.
ha ha respond whenever is convenient. I don't mean to rush and am just responding while this is fresh in my mind.Holey Moley Batman!. I cannot keep up with all the replies! I need to go away now but will be back tomorrow to try to catch up.
I do not know if it is true or not - all dream land....it came to me in series of synchronicity points and dreams and many other messages. Gnosticism uses mythos to convey their points. Gospels are Gnostic.Okay? Good for Gnosticism; doesn't make it true or accurate.
In the Kidger hypothesis I mentioned at the start, the series of astronomical events culminating in a nova, when interpreted in terms of Babylonian mythology of the time would have added to a newborn King of the Jews. It is not the star that led them to Jerusalem but astrology. The details of the hypothesis are complicated and I am skipping them. But the star would have appeared over the horizon a few minutes later each evening as the earth went around the sun. Since stars cross the sky every night as the earth rotates on its axis, the position of a star is given as seen at dawn.
In a reasonable sounding timeframe based on the first appearance of the nova as recorded by the Chinese, figuring caravan speeds and other factors, Kidger has the wise men reach Jerusalem as the star would be up in the sky due south at dawn. That is, it would be above Bethlehem six miles due south of Jerusalem. Since they had just been told to look in Jerusalem, they would naturally be ‘overjoyed’ to see the star over Bethlehem.
A detail never mentioned by Kidger is that the series of events that got the Magi up and moving spans almost exactly two years from the start until Herod speaks with them. Herod appears to be taking the time from the first appearance of the astronomical events, not just the star/nova itself, and using that as the earliest possible date of the birth of this ‘king’. As I said, Kidger never mentioned this. But it works neatly as support for his hypothesis as maybe something completely real. If instead one takes the two years as the time from the appearance of the one and only sign, the star, the question pops up of what kept them?
I have addressed the contention that the star led the Magi to Nazareth instead of Bethlehem in another recent post. Matthew has the family go to Egypt after the Magi visit and sometime later went to Nazareth and that only because Bethlehem was still too dangerous.
The Kidger hypothesis is an interesting one since it points to a potentially close correspondence between what sounds like a fantasy story and scientific reality without much bending and twisting required.
There are a number of traditions about the Tower of Babel that do not appear in the Bible. For one, there is Nimrod shooting his arrow at Heaven from the top of the tower. Not in the Bible. The second flood one runs counter to the promise of God not to do that again in Genesis 9:12-16. Anyway, wouldn’t God notice the tower.
Just to see if I'm getting this story right.
The Parthians were only removed from Judea about 30 years ago and are currently a client kingdom of the Romans. The Cappadocians are as well. If the dominant religion isn't Zoroastrianism in these places, it's still extremely significant. So a bunch of Zoroastrian Magi from a co-client kingdom decide to follow a star that portends the new king of the Jews, because even though that has absolutely nothing to do with them, there's still reasons, probably.
So they come to Judea and they're like, ok Rome installed Herod as the king of the region and we're under Roman rule as well, but let's just get our names out there as revolting against the Roman Empire by giving obeisance to a Jewish king not installed by the Romans in Roman controlled Judea, because of reasons, probably.
Then having concluded these matters which were utterly important for them as Zoroastrian Magi from a different client kingdom, they departed forthwith, henceforth never to be heard from again.
Have I got the story right?
Thank you for your reply.
I find one gospel writer does Not have to repeat what the others say.
It is one gospel account with four writers. Four views. The gospel according to Matthew, etc.
Remember: a trip to Jerusalem was an annual one.- Luke 2:41,
Yes, the family does go to Egypt after the magi visit. That gold gift provided the funds to make that trip possible.
Luke has them going from Nazareth to Bethlehem as per Luke 2:4
After the 40 days - Luke 2:22 - then they return home to Nazareth as per Luke 2:39-40.
By the time the magi found Jesus in a house, not a manger, was the house in Nazareth or Jerusalem, or ?
Is there a reason you find they could Not have left for Egypt from Nazareth other then Jerusalem/Bethlehem is closer to Egypt. I see no particular place mentioned by Matthew at Matthew 2:9-11, but if they returned to Jerusalem for that annual visit and that is where the house was with the child Jesus at that later time.
So, I don't see any disagreement because of the annual trips to Jerusalem.
Matthew 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”
Matthew 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.
Matthew 2:19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt 20 and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child’s life are dead.”
Matthew 2:21 So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.
Ok I'm not trying to derail. I think its not just 'king of the Jews' implied by the star, because the arrival of Jesus represents a whole new order of things. It is the end of kings, the destruction of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision where the statue is made of all of the kingdoms. For it to mean king of the Jews would be very disappointing. It would just be more of the same and not a whole new order.
That the Babylonians had ziggurats I do not dispute, but if the magi followed the star from their land to Israel it could mean an overturning of their king's authority. They were following the star in search of a king, but why would they be searching for a king in Israel if it were only the king of the Jews? Somehow this star represented something worldwide rather than local, and it led foreigners to Bethlehem. Just going by various other statements by Jesus that his kingdom was not 'Of this world' it seems like the star was talking about something that replaced kingdoms and alluded back to that statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision and the stone that destroyed it.
Well maybe, but their opposition was spiritual. They were opposed to the principles upon which Babylon was founded.
They started first with bible studies. Then they got this idea studying the Bible since there wasnt in the Bible at that time anything about not building the tower. they thought that was a great idea. Well it was a fiasco.. And so they then put an indemdum to the bible don't do that. Although they should have included "bible study is how we got in trouble don't be stupid."God punished the people of Babel for building the tower.
The tower was built with the goal of being tall enough to reach heaven. That way you could simply walk the stairs to get into heaven. Not that this was even possible mind you. But the intent behind it is very blasphemous.
The Jews are not supposed to have a king, because kings are not good. If this is the most Jewish of the gospels then it also recognizes it. The angels announce "... a savior who is Christ the King..." but Jesus repeatedly refuses to accept any crown and is then put to death. I think it doesn't get more Jewish than that.As previously commented, Matthew’s viewpoint is the most Jewish of all the Gospels. A major objective of Matthew is to establish Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the Jewish scriptures. In Judaism, the Messiah will be King of the Jews, among other attributes. This King will defeat the enemies of God and establish the kingdom of heaven. In Christianity, this will happen after the Second Coming.
The genealogy in Matthew looks like three sets of 14 generations, but it is not continuous with other genealogies in the Bible as there are discrepancies. This is OK, because anybody can be a son of David, just as anybody can be a son of Abraham, and it is not about blood. Being a son of David is not a medical thing but is about who rears you. Look at David's own physical ancestry, and you can see that his is murky. That is because it doesn't matter. For purposes of inheriting land, yes; otherwise I do not see any emphasis upon breeding.The opening chapters of Matthew are structured to establish Jesus as a descendant of David, a requirement for a messiah, and the rightful King of the Jews, as opposed to the ‘phony’ kings appointed by Rome such as Herod. It is not at all surprising that Matthew would recount the Magi would seek the newborn King of the Jews. In the Kidger hypothesis, that is exactly what the astrological signs would have meant. For important figures from other nations to recognize Jesus as the King of the Jews would have resonated with the image in the Jewish scriptures of all nations showing obeisance to the Messiah. Which the Wise Men did to Jesus. As I said someplace earlier, Matthew’s references are sometimes subtle.
Yet we know for a fact that the LORD is the only real king of the Jews, so why would they ever accept a man in that position? Reading Samuel makes it clear that having a king is an idolatrous practice for Jews. Look at how they've lived for millennia without any king. There's a reason, and its because they don't believe in them. They just work with whomever is in power, pay their taxes and move on. It would be idolatry. Hence Matthew's 'King' does not ever accept a throne or allow himself to be recognized as a king. How then, if he doesn't do anything that a king does, is he a king? If he is a king its in title only.Matthew is concerned with showing that Jesus is the Messiah and therefore King of the Jews. As I said above, this includes primacy among nations. Luke is the one that universalizes Jesus. The kingdom of heaven can be seen as both the messianic kingdom on earth of Judaism and a heavenly kingdom after the end of days. Each of these appears in both Judaism and Christianity.
Sorry but that is completely backward I think.The Hebrews would have been opposed to the idolatrous polytheism and ‘pagan’ lifestyles of the Babylonians. As far as a centralized kingdom is concerned, that is exactly what David established and Solomon expanded.
Sorry if we are overwhelming you....you must have hit on a good and timely topic.
According to Matthew's gospel, the star was no ordinary heavenly body. The magi said that they saw "his star" when they were in the east. This make the star unique to the royal child that they sought. The account also speaks about the star's "appearance" so this sounds like a star or bright light of unknown origin that "appeared" seemingly out of nowhere. The key I believe is that when they had received their instructions from the King to find the child and report back to him, this "star" led them right to the very "house" where they found the young child with his mother. No ordinary star, this one.
The other question to ask is.....who did God inform of the birth of his son? The account says that angels informed Jewish shepherds who were living outdoors at the time. (not something they did in the cold of winter) God would not have informed pagan practicers of what he condemned, about such an important event.
I believe that they got their information from another, more sinister source.
Regarding the missing details of the account, we cannot really speculate too much, but in keeping with what we know about the devil and his schemes to keep Jesus from fulfilling his earthly mission, we can safely assume from what transpired that this star was a manifestation from satan, using pagan worshipers of false gods as dupes in his evil scheme. The very fact that God warned the magi not to go back to Herod, proves that they had no ulterior motives for what they did. They were unwitting accomplices in this murder plot.
Satan tried again to sidetrack Jesus from his mission by three temptations after his baptism and subsequent fasting for 40 days in the wilderness. He failed again. Every attempt made on Jesus' life failed until it was time to lay it down in sacrifice for faithful humanity.
We can only be guided by scripture. All we know for sure is that when Herod threatened Jesus' life, his parents took him to Egypt and when Herod was dead, they were told to return to "the land of Israel".
Matthew 2:19-23...."When Herod had died, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt 20 and said: “Get up, take the young child and his mother and go into the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the life of the young child are dead.” 21 So he got up and took the young child and the child’s mother and entered into the land of Israel. 22 But hearing that Ar·che·laʹus ruled Ju·deʹa instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Moreover, being given divine warning in a dream, he withdrew into the territory of Galʹi·lee. 23 And he came and settled in a city named Nazʹa·reth, in order to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He will be called a Naz·a·reneʹ.”
There was always purpose to God's instructions. He became known as "Jesus of Nazareth".
I always have to ask why it is important for things spoken about in the Bible to have a "natural" cause. Why do we need to impress those who require "scientific reality" as if that matters. If one does not have faith, then no scientific reality will suffice. They will always find excuses not to believe. Belief does not come from external human sources of evidence....it comes from the operation of God's spirit on a good and receptive heart. (John 6:44) Finding "natural explanations" impresses no one really...not even us because it takes power away from God. Either God has the power to make things happen or he doesn't. Either the devil is a real enemy out to destroy our opportunities for everlasting life, or he isn't. This requires faith on our part....not necessarily substantiated evidence. (Hebrews 11:6)
.
According ti Wiki...."Ziggurats were built by the ancient Sumerians, Akkadians, Assyrians, Elamites, Eblaites and Babylonians for local religions, predominantly Mesopotamian religion and Elamite religion. Each ziggurat was part of a temple complex which included other buildings." So it appears that they were used for worship and probably sacrifice.
Just to see if I'm getting this story right.
The Parthians were only removed from Judea about 30 years ago and are currently a client kingdom of the Romans. The Cappadocians are as well. If the dominant religion isn't Zoroastrianism in these places, it's still extremely significant. So a bunch of Zoroastrian Magi from a co-client kingdom decide to follow a star that portends the new king of the Jews, because even though that has absolutely nothing to do with them, there's still reasons, probably.
So they come to Judea and they're like, ok Rome installed Herod as the king of the region and we're under Roman rule as well, but let's just get our names out there as revolting against the Roman Empire by giving obeisance to a Jewish king not installed by the Romans in Roman controlled Judea, because of reasons, probably.
Then having concluded these matters which were utterly important for them as Zoroastrian Magi from a different client kingdom, they departed forthwith, henceforth never to be heard from again.
Have I got the story right?
New According to the Kidger hypothesis, the star was the ‘last straw’ in a series of astronomical events that in Babylonian astrology added up to a King of the Jews being born. The star was a bright nova which was observed and recorded by the Chinese. It appeared at the end of February 5 BC and was clearly visible for at least ten weeks when the rainy season started.
The hypothesis gives a credible timeframe for the Wise Men to be talking with Herod, a timeframe that results in seeing the star over Bethlehem as seen from Jerusalem at dawn, the standard time for recording the position of a star.
Matthew and Luke tell very different accounts of the Nativity. For one thing, Matthew seems to have Mary and Joseph living in Bethlehem to begin with, while Luke has them living in Nazareth to begin with. Mathew referring to a ‘house’ rather than a stable is entirely in line with that. They lived there.
Matthew emphasizes the role of Jesus as King of the Jews, a title of the Messiah. Showing that Jesus was really the Messiah as prophesied in Jewish scriptures was a major objective of Matthew. Luke wanted to show both the humanity and universal relevance of Jesus. Instead of talking about Wise Men bearing expensive gifts, Luke talks about the humble shepherds who visit the newborn Jesus in a stable.
I do not see any influence of the devil here. My original proposition was that Matthew might be making a subtle reference to the ziggurats of Babylon from which Wise Men looked at the stars. These ziggurats were supposed to be the means for the gods to enter their temples. Did Matthew have in mind something like Wise Men discovering the truth in the stars and going to see a genuine entrance of the divine into the world? If so, that is divinely inspired not demonic.
Considering Herod’s reputation for cruelty in safeguarding his place on the throne, I do not see any need for satanic influence I Herod wanting to kill those children because one of them might become his rival. Herod even killed his own sons when he thought they threatened his rule.
In the thread about Satan tempting Jesus, I had offered the opinion that Satan was not sure who Jesus was but that impressive show at the baptism worried him. I do not know if you have posted lately in that thread, being occupied with this one. If Satan was uncertain then, he would not have been certain about anything when Jesus was born.
It is not necessary for everything in the Bible to have a natural explanation. The Bible is full of miracles which by definition do not have a natural explanation. In the case of the star, it might be that entirely natural events led to the Wise Men coming to Jerusalem. If the star is considered a miracle that means that God wanted Herod tipped off abut Jesus?
Matthew talks about the Wise Men. Luke talks about the shepherds. Each writer chose their materials to make their own points. Matthew wrote to prove Messiah status. Luke write to emphasize the human nature of Jesus and his universal importance. As I said elsewhere if they all told everything the same way, why have more than one Gospel?
The Jews are not supposed to have a king, because kings are not good. If this is the most Jewish of the gospels then it also recognizes it. The angels announce "... a savior who is Christ the King..." but Jesus repeatedly refuses to accept any crown and is then put to death. I think it doesn't get more Jewish than that.
The genealogy in Matthew looks like three sets of 14 generations, but it is not continuous with other genealogies in the Bible as there are discrepancies. This is OK, because anybody can be a son of David, just as anybody can be a son of Abraham, and it is not about blood. Being a son of David is not a medical thing but is about who rears you. Look at David's own physical ancestry, and you can see that his is murky. That is because it doesn't matter. For purposes of inheriting land, yes; otherwise I do not see any emphasis upon breeding.
Yet we know for a fact that the LORD is the only real king of the Jews, so why would they ever accept a man in that position? Reading Samuel makes it clear that having a king is an idolatrous practice for Jews. Look at how they've lived for millennia without any king. There's a reason, and its because they don't believe in them. They just work with whomever is in power, pay their taxes and move on. It would be idolatry. Hence Matthew's 'King' does not ever accept a throne or allow himself to be recognized as a king. How then, if he doesn't do anything that a king does, is he a king? If he is a king its in title only.
It is only a hypothesis though, right? That doesn't make it fact, no matter how much you may want it to "explain" what the magi identified as "his star" and followed, first to Jerusalem which alerted a lot of people, including Herod...and led to a terrible outcome.
Why would this celestial phenomena come to a stop over the very house where the magi found Jesus? If I am imagining the housing situation of people in the first century then this would be puzzling indeed. A distant celestial body would not stop over a house.
The gospels all have something to add to the overall story. Since Luke was not an apostle but a physician, and a stickler for detail, he compiled his account from eyewitness testimony and from reliable and verifiable sources. I see all the gospels as contributing different details about one story. I find that it is more believable because of that. The bones are all there in the gospel accounts and the details give it flesh IMO. All must harmonize because God is the overseer as to what is contained in his word.
Luke includes so much background information....the miraculous birth of John the Baptist e.g. It is his account that rounds things out so beautifully IMO.
I don't see a subtle reference to ziggurats in Matthew's account actually. Astrology was forbidden to God's people. I see nothing but demonic activity in what transpired as a result of the magi's presence in Jerusalem. Following that star led to the murder of countless infants...NOT something we could ever blame on God unless he was responsible for sending pagan worshipers of false gods to honor his son. Can you see him doing that?
"Rachel weeping for her children" was prophesied in Jeremiah and fulfilled in Herod's actions. At two years of age, she may either have had more than one....or she may have had twins? (Matthew 2:17-18) Just because something is foretold, does not mean that God caused it.
Herod also beheaded John the Baptist on the whim of his wife. It was Herod’s adulterous relationship with Herodias that brought reproof from John. He could properly correct Herod on this matter, for he was nominally a Jew and professedly under the Law. (but of course a complete hypocrite) Herod put John into prison, desiring to kill him, but was afraid of the people, who believed that John was a prophet. Nevertheless, at a celebration of his birthday, Herodias’ daughter so pleased him that he made an oath to give her whatever she asked. Herodias instructed her daughter to ask for John’s head. Herod, though it was not pleasing to him, gave in to save face before those attending the celebration and because of his oath. (However, under the Law he would not be bound by an oath to perform an illegal act, such as murder.) (Matthew 14:3-14; Mark 14:3-12) He was easily influenced apparently. The devil would have no trouble employing such a morally weak and wicked man to do his bidding.
How could satan not know who Jesus was? The three temptations were all specifically targeted at him as the son of God. He said he had authority over all the kingdoms of the world and could give them to whomever he wished.....so satan knows everything about everything that goes on in this world over which he holds dominion. (Luke 4:5-6; 1 John 5:19)
That would make God responsible for the deaths of all those babies. What God did, was not prevent satan from plotting and carrying out his schemes. They were always thwarted. Every one of them was a lesson for his angelic sons and us. Rebellion only leads to disaster.
Both are important in the complete story. All provide details the others leave out. This is why police interview multiple witnesses to a crime.....all the stories will provide details the others omitted....filling in the blanks. It is the human touch in the Biblical narrative that appeals to us......something, I think that would have been lost if told by angels from their vantage point. This is also why God chose humans to rule with his son in the heavenly kingdom. Every one of them had lived on earth as a human and will be compassionate and understanding of the human condition. They will make excellent priests for this reason.
The time of the Judges was a lawless time. It was not a time when they needed kings but a time when they needed the law. The whole point of it was that without the law they were just wild men.So David and Solomon were not good? Try reading Judges and the frequent exhortation that when there is no king, things get very bad. The word ‘messiah’ means the anointed one. Kings were signified as such by being anointed. Many of the messianic prophecies refer to the Messiah as a kingly figure.
Jesus refused to be made a king because he had to be sacrificed first. At the Second Coming he will be a king. In Revelation he will be called King of Kings.
Referring to gematria as evidence is to me just not a concrete avenue of inquiry. If I took a class on it I might be able to determine what its value was. At the moment its just another dreidle to me; and I don't know why you'd even mention it unless you actually have learned the gematria.Matthew has Jesus called Son of David numerous times. The name David in Hebrew Gematria becomes 14. Even the genealogy says “David, David, David”. Matthew also cleverly has the name David appear twice in the genealogy. Jewish scripture is very clear that the Messiah must be a literal descendant of David. That is not about who rears you but about hereditary.
You refer us to 1Sam 8. 1Samual 8:7 the LORD says to Samuel "...it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king." It was pretty bad right from the beginning -- a terrible mistake. Later the prophet tells David that his own dynasty will always be at war, and this is probably why Jesus requires a sword to be present on the mount of Olives. (2 Samuel 12:10). David's dynasty is worse than a failure and can never be peaceful. Kings and Chronicles recount the eventual fall and decline of it, each king a failure, each dynasty lacking with one or two kings partially doing a good job and the rest terrible. Eventually ten tribes are completely gone, a tragic tale. Ezekiel 21:25 says "You profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, ... Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low." This is the same message preached by John the Baptist in the desert, though he is quoting from a different prophet. He preaches the voice in the wilderness and that the high places shall be made low and the low places brought up. It is the same message -- the end of the dynasty and a restoration not to a kingdom of men but to something better. Then comes the perfection and Isaiah's wish: "You will be a crown of splendor in the LORD's hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God." (Isaiah 62:3) Until then Jesus remains in heaven while everything is worked out, and the moment he returns he will return rule the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:26 "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." So Jesus is far away now and when he does finally return, that is the end of kings and crowns except for the crowns of glory of the faithful.Jewish scripture and tradition is that the Messiah will be a king. Jews has had many kings and they were men.
Samuel did not say that having a king was idolatrous. He thought that kings were liable to abuse their power. But the Lord told Samuel there should be a king and pointed out Saul. 1 Samuel 8-9
The Kidger hypothesis is certainly not confirmed fact. Nevertheless if it were, it would lend credence to a part of Matthew that sounds like a fairy tale, believable only by those who already accept it on faith.
The star wasn't just over Bethlehem. It first led them to Jerusalem where their inquiries soon reached Herod's ears. Only after Herod hatched his plot did the star go ahead of them to guide them directly to where Jesus was.Kidger explains things like the star stopping over the right place. In Kidger, the star is at that time due south of Jerusalem appearing to stand over Bethlehem. Matthew 2:10 says “When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.” They had just been told that Bethlehem was the place to go and now they see the star over Bethlehem. The end of their quest was near. Reason to be overjoyed.
If Matthew really had found a record written by the Wise Men describing this event as an astronomer would, a non-expert like Matthew could easily have written about it exactly as he did, using the right words but without really understanding their import.
It was Herod Antipas who beheaded John the Baptist, not Herod the Great who killed the children of Bethlehem. What the devil may have had to do with killing John the Baptist is an open question.
Satan does not necessarily know everything that goes on in the world anymore than a person who has dominion over a country knows everything that goes on.
Jesus did not appear to be anything like the warrior king the Jewish scriptures envisioned for the Messiah. The idea of a literal Son of God walking the earth was also a new thing not found in earlier scripture. Satan would be uncertain about what it all meant..
If Jesus was simply a special human as the Messiah was thought to be, he would be vulnerable and possibly defeatable. I think that Satan was unsure about what was happening
How would God be responsible for the death of the babies? Herod did it on his own, not really any more horrendous that other things he did or planned to do. I never said the Wise Men were part of God’s plan. I said that Matthew used material he found to make points.
No, you do not have the story right by a long shot.
Judea was part of the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 BC until 37 BC. Until 116 BC it was a semi-autonomous entity in the Seleucid Empire, at which time that empire fell apart.
Rome took over in 66 BC and the Hasmonean Dynasty became a client state.
During the Roman Civil War following the death of Julius Caesar in 44 BC they effectively became independent again. When Rome tried to restore control in 40 BC, the Hasmoneans formed an alliance with the Parthians. But the Romans defeated the Parthian invasion in 37 BC and Herod was installed as the Roman-appointed King of the Jews. The Parthians never had any significant influence on the character of Judea, being involved in warfare with the Romans almost from the moment they arrived.
Parthia did not become a client state of Rome until 113 AD when Trajan captured their capital. This was long after the time of Herod. Babylon was part of Parthia. Judea ceased to become even nominally a client state of Rome in 70 AD when military rule was established. Before that there were sometimes men called King of the Jews, but control was directly from Rome.
I can't seem to find where I saw that they were, so it's possible that I mistook what I read about the Cappadocians and applied it to the Parthians as well. Since the passage doesn't explain where the Magi came from, I chose the two most likely places.Never at any time were Judea and Parthia co-client states of Rome.
There is no evidence that Zoroastrianism had any influence in Judea.
Yes, that's kind of the point...
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.It would be extremely unlikely that it would during the very few years of Parthian presence and that during warfare with Rome. It is especially unlikely when one considers the trouble the Romans had concerning Jewish religious fervor in Judea.
Apparently more than you thought.The question is … Is there any part of the story you did get right?
God punished the people of Babel for building the tower.
The tower was built with the goal of being tall enough to reach heaven. That way you could simply walk the stairs to get into heaven. Not that this was even possible mind you. But the intent behind it is very blasphemous.
The time of the Judges was a lawless time. It was not a time when they needed kings but a time when they needed the law. The whole point of it was that without the law they were just wild men.
David and Solomon both failed miserably, yes. The history of the kings of Israel reads like a history of failures, too. There's no way to prop them up as anything but, and do not forget the way that the kingdom begins. It begins as a rebellion against the LORD. The people are warned that kings are not what the LORD wants. Samuel is the priest who appoints both Saul and David, and Samuel is grieved about it. He's grieved, not happy, not glad; because its not good.
Referring to gematria as evidence is to me just not a concrete avenue of inquiry. If I took a class on it I might be able to determine what its value was. At the moment its just another dreidle to me; and I don't know why you'd even mention it unless you actually have learned the gematria.
You refer us to 1Sam 8. 1Samual 8:7 the LORD says to Samuel "...it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king." It was pretty bad right from the beginning -- a terrible mistake. Later the prophet tells David that his own dynasty will always be at war, and this is probably why Jesus requires a sword to be present on the mount of Olives. (2 Samuel 12:10). David's dynasty is worse than a failure and can never be peaceful. Kings and Chronicles recount the eventual fall and decline of it, each king a failure, each dynasty lacking with one or two kings partially doing a good job and the rest terrible. Eventually ten tribes are completely gone, a tragic tale. Ezekiel 21:25 says "You profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, ... Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low." This is the same message preached by John the Baptist in the desert, though he is quoting from a different prophet. He preaches the voice in the wilderness and that the high places shall be made low and the low places brought up. It is the same message -- the end of the dynasty and a restoration not to a kingdom of men but to something better. Then comes the perfection and Isaiah's wish: "You will be a crown of splendor in the LORD's hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God." (Isaiah 62:3) Until then Jesus remains in heaven while everything is worked out, and the moment he returns he will return rule the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:26 "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." So Jesus is far away now and when he does finally return, that is the end of kings and crowns except for the crowns of glory of the faithful.