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Marxism against Religions - a maybe not so known novel

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Samana Johann, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann no member (former tolerated guest)

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    Peppone vs. Don Camillo is something that came to mind when watching the treads of your modern world.

    Not sure how much know in English spheres, even ever all synchronized in it's whole.


    Much food for thought, here or there, not getting caught in simply amused.
     
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  2. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Where are the Marxists? Can you produce any Marxists? Do you know that the quotation that is often used as evidence that Marx was against religion is taken out of context and when read in context show that Marx wasn't really against religion but that he understood why people turn to religion in adverse circumstances ?
     
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  3. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Another out of context one is 'the separation of church and state' famously took out of context from a letter from Jefferson to a Baptist group assuring them the government would keep out of their business
     
  4. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann no member (former tolerated guest)

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    But now...

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    It's not taken out of context because we have several documents, including the Constitution, that does reveal there was every intention of preventing the state from favoring religion, declaring America secular (and ex0licitly not established on Christian principles), and establishing a secular state by prohibiting and forbidding tests of public faith to hold office and disallowing the state to establish and favor religion.
    Like it or not, we have freedom of religion because we have freedom from religion.
     
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  6. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I agree.
     
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  7. Labourwave

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    Marx's attack on religion was not a moralist or ideological one, but rather relating to the developments of Materialist philosophy.

    One cannot properly understand material phenomena without proper material analysis and experimentation with said phenomena. This is true of natural science as well as history (that's why Marx's thought is called historical materialism.)

    Lenin's The Attitude of the Workers’ Party to Religion is one of the most simple explanations of this.

    Excerpts:

    "At the same time Engels frequently condemned the efforts of people who desired to be “more left” or “more revolutionary” than the Social-Democrats, to introduce into the programme of the workers’ party an explicit proclamation of atheism, in the sense of declaring war on religion. Commenting in 1874 on the famous manifesto of the Blanquist fugitive Communards who were living in exile in London, Engels called their vociferous proclamation of war on religion a piece of stupidity, and stated that such a declaration of war was the best way to revive interest in religion and to prevent it from really dying out. Engels blamed the Blanquists for being unable to understand that only the class struggle of the working masses could, by comprehensively drawing the widest strata of the proletariat into conscious and revolutionary social practice, really free the oppressed masses from the yoke of religion, whereas to proclaim that war on religion was a political task of the workers’ party was just anarchistic phrase-mongering."

    "Marxism is materialism. As such, it is as relentlessly hostile to religion as was the materialism of the eighteenth-century Encyclopaedists or the materialism of Feuerbach. This is beyond doubt. But the dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels goes further than the Encyclopaedists and Feuerbach, for it applies the materialist philosophy to the domain of history, to the domain of the social sciences. We must combat religion—that is the ABC of all materialism, and consequently of Marxism. But Marxism is not a materialism which has stopped at the ABC. Marxism goes further. It says: We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion. Why does religion retain its hold on the backward sections of the town proletariat, on broad sections of the semi-proletariat, and on the mass of the peasantry?
    ...
    The Marxist says that this is not true, that it is a superficial view, the view of narrow bourgeois uplifters. It does not explain the roots of religion profoundly enough; it explains them, not in a materialist but in an idealist way. In modern capitalist countries these roots are mainly social. The deepest root of religion today is the socially downtrodden condition of the working masses and their apparently complete helplessness in face of the blind forces of capitalism, which every day and every hour inflicts upon ordinary working people the most horrible suffering and the most savage torment, a thousand times more severe than those inflicted by extra-ordinary events, such as wars, earthquakes, etc."
     
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  8. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann no member (former tolerated guest)

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    Marxists do not expect anything beyond form, the five senses, and the ideas to make all more pleasant is to put in productivity for the senses and cut of everything that might be seen as sublime and more worthy to work for it. It's simply to yoke people in ways that they will no more be able to escape the circle, to stay bound in the world = here you are now,{ both, Peppone & Don Camillo}*, in a nearly total Marxist world, as you wanted it. For a large even leaded by religion-leader, making a livelihood by it, to it.

    * added later
     
    #8 Samana Johann, Jun 16, 2019
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  9. Labourwave

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    Marxists attempt to understand the material world in the most scientific way possible, through material analysis of the opposing forces which make up any phenomena.

    It is idealism, not materialism, that judges phenomena based on appearances. Marxism interrogates material phenomena through falsifiable inquiry to reveal pragmatic material truths useful for the development of history.

    It is metaphysical philosophy that pseudo-scientifically tries to establish primary truths without material basis.

    I have no idea what you mean by this.
     
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  10. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann no member (former tolerated guest)

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    Conditions have causes and if not having given them, how would they arise for one? If one feels satisfied, one could rest. Religious such practice is known as Ox-duties-asceticism, mentioned here: MN 57: Kukkuravatika Sutta — The Dog-duty Ascetic.

    Two fruits can be expected:

    "Here, Seniya, someone develops the ox duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the ox habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the ox mind fully and unstintingly, he develops the ox behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of oxen. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious like I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Seniya, if his ox duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of oxen; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."
    If spoken in more graspable word for those not seeing a world before and behind: either brave good labors or into war.
     
    #10 Samana Johann, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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  11. rocala

    rocala Active Member

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  12. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann no member (former tolerated guest)

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    Householder Rocala

    It would be wrong perceived, it is wrong informed, that he has actually much to do with the Buddhas Dhamma Vinaya, and yes, it's because there are Vinaya (rules) corrupt leaders that most religions are actually on the "Marx-wave" to stay popular and be able to trade.

    (Dalai Lama is a popular person in the West, but has actually outside west and Tibet, less value. He is a leader of a paricular later sect, nothing else. An yes, he is to be seen as politican, not as a person leading different to secular approaches for those seeking alternatives, not really a religious person. Just informative: the Sangha, community of monks, has no personal leader, relays simply on Dhamma-Vinaya, the Buddhas heritage.)

    He can be seen as Don Camillo here, yes. (not that they might be seen as different in their objectives, he and Pepone)
     
    #12 Samana Johann, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  13. Labourwave

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    While he claims to be one, his personal politics indicate he either hasn't properly investigated what Marxism is or deliberately misrepresents it.

    One of the most significant conclusions derived from Marx's analysis is supporting the emancipation of the proletariat from capitalism by whatever means necessary, which Marx thought would necessarily take the form of brutal revolutionary wars against bourgeois oppression around the world.

    Marxism is also neccesarily against imperialism, whereas the dalai lama has openly co-operated with NATO and the US historically, iirc.
     
  14. rocala

    rocala Active Member

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    I would think that claiming to be Marxist in the West is not a sure way to win popularity.
     
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  15. Labourwave

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    The truth of the matter is that Engels and Marx were way more hostile in their writings towards agnostics than consolidated religious practitioners, as religion was pervasive throughout most of the european working classes and needed to be carefully dealt with, while people openly claiming the term "agnostic" were typically petty-bourgeois and using agnosticism as an excuse not to properly investigate the foundations of materialism.

    To quote Engels from his Book "Socialism, Utopian and Scientific" :

    "As far as we know and can know, he will tell you there is no creator and no Ruler of the universe; as far as we are concerned, matter and energy can neither be created nor annihilated; for us, mind is a mode of energy, a function of the brain; all we know is that the material world is governed by immutable laws, and so forth. Thus, as far as he is a scientific man, as far as he knows anything, he is a materialist; outside his science, in spheres about which he knows nothing, he translates his ignorance into Greek and calls it agnosticism."
     
  16. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann no member (former tolerated guest)

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    Lables and content are different things, of course... but act-ually?

    The sects promoting materialism have been called "cosmologist", "secularists". Lokayatika

    Householer @Labourwave seems to be well informed about the content, able to trace it behind lables, as it seems, also with scripts.

    Now how does it come that most Religions have turned in marxistic directions act-ually, not that it is not to be seens, but most might be not aware.
     
    #16 Samana Johann, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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