Manifestations and their companions were miserable, poor and wronged

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you imagine that, the Founders of great Religions, such as Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Zoroaster and Muhammad, and their companions, and other Prophets such as Joseph or David or Solomon were rich, wealthy and dominant?
Do you imagine they had outward glory and power?

Or, They and Their companions were outwardly poor, weak, defeated and miserable in the hands of their enemies?


Which one is it?

 

[SalixIncendium]

It is who they were and what they taught that is important to me, not what they had.

And Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism. Hinduism has no single founder.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is who they were and what they taught that is important to me, not what they had.

And Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism. Hinduism has no single founder.

Yes, i know that, but thanks for the info.

The way I see Hinduism, is a number of Faiths. It is similar to say "Abrahamic religion". Abrahamic Religions are founded by different Beings, such as Muhammad or Moses, who were 2000 years apart. I think Hinduism is the same. They were Beings who were thousands of years apart but they were all part of the same lineage or culture more or less.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't really think much about the alleged or actual founders of various religious traditions one way or another. Not just because the concept is not really applicable to my own religious tradition but because while understanding the background of founders (where present) can provide some important historical insight into the development of a religion, religions change over time and evolve well past the backgrounds of any founders they happened to have. As such, the socioeconomic class of a founder is usually not relevant information.

 

[sun rise]

Do you imagine they had outward glory and power?

Or, They and Their companions were outwardly poor, weak, defeated and miserable in the hands of their enemies?

According to what I've read Rama was banished to a forest for quite a few years. And while Krishna apparently not the king of Dwarka, he was the one who placed kings on that throne.

But to the OP question, my answer is neither. Poor? Yes, typically. Weak/defeated/miserable? No. The God-man is never truly weak though that might be the appearance. Defeated? No, Muhammad in his time won many battles and established Islam including the Compact at Medina. Miserable? That's a human emotion.

What is the case is that Avatar is never recognized by the multitudes in his lifetime. Only a relative few have the supreme good fortune to do so. Their work is to take the suffering of the world on their shoulders and move humanity forward.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe Baha'u'llah was miserable because he told us so;
'Thou hearest, O my God, my sighs and my groaning, and beholdest my powerlessness, and my poverty, and my misery, and my woes, and my wretchedness. I swear by Thy might! I have wept with such a weeping that I have been unable to make mention of Thee, or to extol Thee, and cried with such a bitter cry that every mother in her bereavement was bewildered at me, and forgot her own anguish and the sighs she had uttered.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 266-288

As for whether Muhammad with his 11 wives was miserable or not I suppose that anything carried to excess can be a source of misery.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is who they were and what they taught that is important to me, not what they had.

And Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism. Hinduism has no single founder.

We've said this to Baha'i's at least 100 times on this forum, with no change in mindset. What exactly makes you think that will change this time?

 

[SalixIncendium]

We've said this to Baha'i's at least 100 times on this forum, with no change in mindset. What exactly makes you think that will change this time?

Well, because -I- said it.

People hear what they want to hear.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes, i know that, but thanks for the info.

If you knew, why did you post as you did?

The way I see Hinduism, is a number of Faiths. It is similar to say "Abrahamic religion".

Then you're seeing it incorrectly.

I think Hinduism is the same.

Thinking something doesn't make it so.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, because -I- said it.

People hear what they want to hear.

It's the. "Oh, right. I'm sorry." surface level apology, but then repetition of the same mistake syndrome. The change just doesn't sink in. But hey, there's lots of 'I'm gonnas" in life.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It's the. "Oh, right. I'm sorry." surface level apology, but then repetition of the same mistake syndrome. The change just doesn't sink in. But hey, there's lots of 'I'm gonnas" in life.

I'm sure the point is readily understood. Sadly, it turns into "I acknowledge you're right, but I'm going to choose to ignore than because I have an agenda to promote."

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you knew, why did you post as you did?


Then you're seeing it incorrectly.


Thinking something doesn't make it so.

It is the same as what was happening within Abrahamic Religions. For example Jews accept Moses, but reject Jesus. Christians accept Jesus, but reject Muhammad. Muslims accept Muhammad but Reject the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The same happend to Hindu Religions. Some Hindus accept Krishna, but reject some other Manifestations of God. Other Hindus reject Krishna but accept another Manifestation of God.
Most people have a tendency to stick with their own traditional beliefs and reject any other Manifestations of God. People are resistance to accepting any new Manifestation or other what they were taught to believe.
But Baha'is accept all of them, saying, God from time to time manifested Himself with a new Name among a different people. So, dont worry, if you believe Allah is God and Muhammad is His Messenger, you are right. If you believe In Buddha, you are right. If you are a Jew and believe in Yahowa, and Moses, you are right. Lets be all united and dont fight.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It is the same as what was happening within Abrahamic Religions. For example Jews accept Moses, but reject Jesus. Christians accept Jesus, but reject Muhammad. Muslims accept Muhammad but Reject the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The same happend to Hindu Religions. Some Hindus accept Krishna, but reject some other Manifestations of God. Other Hindus reject Krishna but accept another Manifestation of God.

Show me evidence to back this up.

Until you do, I'll reject this for the pure conjecture it is.

Most people have a tendency to stick with their own traditional beliefs and reject any other Manifestations of God. People are resistance to accepting any new Manifestation or other what they were taught to believe.

You are only building evidence for your ignorance of Hinduism.

But Baha'is accept all of them, saying, God from time to time manifested Himself with a new Name among a different people. So, dont worry, if you believe Allah is God and Muhammad is His Messenger, you are right. If you believe In Buddha, you are right. If you are a Jew and believe in Yahowa, and Moses, you are right. Lets be all united and dont fight.

And there it is.

I actually had a degree of respect for the Baha'i Faith when I joined this forum.

You and your brethren killed every bit of it with this kind of trash.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is the same as what was happening within Abrahamic Religions. For example Jews accept Moses, but reject Jesus. Christians accept Jesus, but reject Muhammad. Muslims accept Muhammad but Reject the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The same happend to Hindu Religions. Some Hindus accept Krishna, but reject some other Manifestations of God. Other Hindus reject Krishna but accept another Manifestation of God.
Most people have a tendency to stick with their own traditional beliefs and reject any other Manifestations of God. People are resistance to accepting any new Manifestation or other what they were taught to believe.
But Baha'is accept all of them, saying, God from time to time manifested Himself with a new Name among a different people. So, dont worry, if you believe Allah is God and Muhammad is His Messenger, you are right. If you believe In Buddha, you are right. If you are a Jew and believe in Yahowa, and Moses, you are right. Lets be all united and dont fight.

Please do yourself a favor and never speak about Hinduism, that which you clearly know nothing about. It makes you look foolish. I don't feel there is any point stating the Hindu POV, because you either won't read it, or understand it, as you have already proved several times over, which makes my (and others) efforts a total waste of time. Your lens (subconscious mind) is limited by the Baha'i programming, and that's just the way it is.

 

[Vinayaka]

I actually had a degree of respect for the Baha'i Faith when I joined this forum.

You and your brethren killed every bit of it with this kind of trash.

That parallels my experience. It's too bad too, because the world could use more actual respectful interfaith dialogue. But sadly, that has to go both ways.

 

[danieldemol]

People are resistance to accepting any new Manifestation or other what they were taught to believe.
But Baha'is accept all of them

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad would have been delighted to know you accept him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad would have been delighted to know you accept him.

He was not founder of a Religion.
New Religion means, new Holy Book, new Laws and ordinances, new culture, new community of believers.
Mirza Ghulam, made a new sect in Islam. They are still Muslims, not a new community of Believers, so are Mormons. They are a sect in Christianity, still Christians.

 

[danieldemol]

He was not founder of a Religion.
New Religion means, new Holy Book, new Laws and ordinances, new culture, new community of believers.
Mirza Ghulam, made a new sect in Islam. They are still Muslims, not a new community of Believers, so are Mormons. They are a sect in Christianity, still Christians.

Ah knew their had to be semantics behind it! So Ahmadiyya And LDS are not religions according to you because they didn't bring new laws lol.

But that's not what you said in my view, you didn't say you dont believe in the founders of new religions that according to you are not religions.

Here is what you said,
"People are resistance to accepting any new Manifestation or other what they were taught to believe.
But Baha'is accept all of them"

So here is what is other than what you were taught to believe in my view.

You were not taught to believe in Joseph Smith or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or the 10 Sikh Gurus (the latter of whom did bring their own book and law specifying the 5Ks according to my understanding).

So saying you accept them all I see as demonstrably false.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ah knew their had to be semantics behind it! So Ahmadiyya And LDS are not religions according to you because they didn't bring new laws lol.

But that's not what you said in my view, you didn't say you dont believe in the founders of new religions that according to you are not religions.

Here is what you said,
"People are resistance to accepting any new Manifestation or other what they were taught to believe.
But Baha'is accept all of them"

So here is what is other than what you were taught to believe in my view.

You were not taught to believe in Joseph Smith or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or the 10 Sikh Gurus (the latter of whom did bring their own book and law specifying the 5Ks according to my understanding).

So saying you accept them all I see as demonstrably false.

Mormons are Christians, the same way, protestants, Orthodox etc are. That is their religion. It is is called Christianity.
You can apply same to Ahmadi Islam.

 

[danieldemol]

Mormons are Christians, the same way, protestants, Orthodox etc are. That is their religion. It is is called Christianity.
You can apply same to Ahmadi Islam.

Irrelevant in my opinion.