Man Who Was Shot Six Times Still Waiting for Surgery Due to the Overwhelming Number of COVID Cases

[Unveiled Artist]

The anti vaxxers are people who go on forums and social media and promote the cause against vaccinations. And argue against their effectiveness and safety with out confirmed evidence. Or raise unfounded Doubs and fears in others minds.

If that's the case there's only I think two or three anti-vaxxers here on RF. The rest of us unvaccinated don't care if people vaccinate just we don't want to be forced to do so ourselves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Stats and numbers are the only reliable things to place faith in, as it is our only way to objectively analyze a situation.

True-though my point is don't appeal to authority even if that's the only resources you have to go by. A little skepticism is healthy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I've had to get booster shots for a few things, and I get the flu jab yearly.
Your point?

US doesn't have booster shots. I heard it start in India or Israel or so have you. My point is this is a continuous problem so it would take a long time for any solutions to manifest given new variants. If there were just COVID than I can see others getting vaccinated. Maybe a plan B or C would be on the way soon.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

True-though my point is don't appeal to authority even if that's the only resources you have to go by. A little skepticism is healthy.

It's not an appeal to authority.
How do you think professional gamblers do it? Top poker players? Card counters? It's all done relying on nothing more than statistics if you want to have a consistent gain in the long term.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

US doesn't have booster shots. I heard it start in India or Israel or so have you. My point is this is a continuous problem so it would take a long time for any solutions to manifest given new variants. If there were just COVID than I can see others getting vaccinated. Maybe a plan B or C would be on the way soon.

Not yet, but it was predicted early on that booster shots or something yearly like the flu jab is a possibility and may become reality.

 

[stvdv]

I trust my conscience too. Don't have a guardian angel but have been intercepted and protected by loved ones.

Good to hear, my conscience is my best compass.
I remember your stories ... cyborg etc. Good to hear you are protected by loved ones; you are one of my favorites on RF, you are very friendly

No. I've never vaccinated before outside grade school requirements.

Aha, now I understand your replies. Must have been rough on you too, reading all these, IMO, quite vicious and aggressive replies. In Holland we have just a few vaccinations when we are child. And when I was travelling a lot, I did take a few extra vaccinations. Since 2014 no more travelling for me, so no need for vaccinations

We have three vaccination spots walking distance from me. But I don't know about the numbers. I don't go many places to consider it though. I'm not afraid of being asymptomatic unless I intentionally put myself in situations that would increase my risk of catching COVID. I can't think of a reason to consider it outside listening to stats and doctors who don't know me personally. For me, it would probably need to be something more close to home-like if I had a loved one with COVID or working at a hospital, something of that nature. Not just because.

I know one family here who got covid, all 3 kids got it, father did not get it. But nothing major happened to them, the boy did lose taste

IF covid is really that transmissible THEN maybe I even got it without noticing it, I mean I have many troubles already, I can imagine I did not notice it. If I need to visit the hospital I might do a covid test (the one with anti bodies), I am curious if I got it the past 2 years. Although I know for sure that I did not lose my taste.

I wish you all the best, and pray (if you don't mind) you stay healthy

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have empathy for any person who suffers -- even if they are the cause of their own suffering.

That is why I fight so hard on this forum (and in my own life) to convince people to just get vaccinated. I've read the stats. I know how much difference the vaccine can make -- and it is actually huge. Read the following:

The Delta variant really started to hit the UK in early May. The daily case count had bottomed out at 1,355 on May 1 but began to climb after that. The case count peaked at 60,680 on July 15, but compared to previous waves there was not a corresponding rise in hospitalizations or deaths due to COVID-19.

The first wave in the UK saw a high of about 5,400 cases per day in late April 2020 with hospitalizations spiking at 21,687 on April 12, 2020 and deaths at a high of 1,075 on April 8, 2020. In the second wave, cases spiked at 81,499 on Dec. 29, 2020 while hospitalizations peaked at 39,254 on Jan. 18, 2021 and deaths peaked at 1,359 per day on Jan. 19, 2021.

Healthcare personnel work in a coronavirus intensive care unit where they are dealing with a surge in cases of the Delta variant at Intermountain Medical Center in Murray, Utah, in this handout photo provided July 23, 2021.

By comparison, as vaccinations took hold, the third wave in the UK looked far different.

Cases spiked up to 60,680 on July 15, 2021, or 74% of the previous high, but hospitalizations only reached a third wave high of 6,082 or just 15% of the previous high for hospitalizations. For deaths, the peak in the British third wave was 99 deaths on July 30, or just 7% of the previous high.

What this tells us is that vaccinations against COVID-19 work, even against the Delta variant.

When Delta really started hitting the United Kingdom in early May there were just 65% of those 18 and over with a first dose and 29% with a second dose. By comparison, as Ontario is looking at Delta taking hold we have 82% of the population 18 and over having one shot and 74% having two shots.

Ontario is well ahead of where the UK was in terms of being prepared for the wave brought about by Delta. This should be cause for celebration and something that helps us look forward to getting back to normal rather than something that makes us recoil in fear.​

I get the intent but evangelizing needing vaccination to me is immoral. People make health decisions congruent with their own "and" others needs. They've already started doing that in the US unfortunately, going door to door to offer vaccinations. Biden supported. President Biden just introduced a ‘door-to-door’ plan for COVID-19 vaccines

Biden pitched the idea to help people get vaccinated against COVID-19. The New York Times reports that the plan “would send people door to door, set up clinics at workplaces and urge employers to offer paid time off as part of a renewed push to reach tens of millions of unvaccinated Americans.” ....

They're saying here that they are thinking of giving booster shots against the Delta variant to the immune compromised. However, they are a bit worrisome it may backfire if they're not careful. I think they said the vaccines may work up to 6 months or so then wain off.

Not all people make personal health decisions by stats. I'd say there should be another way to convince people, right?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If that's the case there's only I think two or three anti-vaxxers here on RF. The rest of us unvaccinated don't care if people vaccinate just we don't want to be forced to do so ourselves.

Then what is your purpose in defending the anti vax position so forcibly?
It would seem that you protest too much against those promoting the vital roll out of vaccination.
That is certainly not a neutral position.


People tend to look at how a hat fits, rather than accept how people categorise them selves.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I get the intent but evangelizing needing vaccination to me is immoral. People make health decisions congruent with their own "and" others needs. They've already started doing that in the US unfortunately, going door to door to offer vaccinations. Biden supported. President Biden just introduced a ‘door-to-door’ plan for COVID-19 vaccines

Biden pitched the idea to help people get vaccinated against COVID-19. The New York Times reports that the plan “would send people door to door, set up clinics at workplaces and urge employers to offer paid time off as part of a renewed push to reach tens of millions of unvaccinated Americans.” ....

They're saying here that they are thinking of giving booster shots against the Delta variant to the immune compromised. However, they are a bit worrisome it may backfire if they're not careful. I think they said the vaccines may work up to 6 months or so then wain off.

Not all people make personal health decisions by stats. I'd say there should be another way to convince people, right?

Some classes of vaccinations do become less effective over time. It is not yet clear the time limits that should be applied to Covid.

Flue vaccine is a case in point. It becomes less effective over the course of a year, while at the same time the virus mutates constantly. Each year, a few weeks, before the usual winter flu season begins, the most recent vaccines are released and vulnerable people are revaccinated.

Covid is much more virulent and deadly than flu, and a similar routine is expected to be both necessary and effective.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Then what is your purpose in defending the anti vax position so forcibly?
It would seem that you protest too much against those promoting the vital roll out of vaccination.
That is certainly not a neutral position.


People tend to look at how a hat fits, rather than accept how people categorise them selves.

I'm not against the vaccines (anti-vax). I'm against vaccine mandates and belittling unvaccinated people.

I've never promoted anything against vaccinations

I've never belittled the effectiveness of vaccinations (Side effects are quoted by CDC themselves)

I've never raised unfounded fears and doubts in other people's minds.

The shoe doesn't fit. You're generalizing.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I keep seeing this (what I'm saying next) pop up but I've never heard a good answer just repeated ones.

If a person is isolated from the public how could he or she help with herd immunity by vaccination?

My attitude is "it will take long to beat it, don't take current solutions and info for granted."

Always isolated? Never shop, buy groceries, answer the door?

"Don't take current solutions and info for granted." Interesting notion. I think, in an emergency situation, that's got to be pretty much the worst advice in history. "That rock rolling down the hill might kill me. Now, I know that current solutions suggest I ought to step aside, and the info in front of me is that it's heading straight for me. I think I'll wait and see if some better idea com.....splat!"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Always isolated? Never shop, buy groceries, answer the door?

"Don't take current solutions and info for granted." Interesting notion. I think, in an emergency situation, that's got to be pretty much the worst advice in history. "That rock rolling down the hill might kill me. Now, I know that current solutions suggest I ought to step aside, and the info in front of me is that it's heading straight for me. I think I'll wait and see if some better idea com.....splat!"

Not taking something for granted means to be a little skeptical about something before accepting that it is true. Don't jump off a bridge because an authority tells you to. Assess your situation and find out if it's in your best interest.

Always isolated, yes. Which means less likely to get COVID, when around one other person they are less likely to catch it, and thus less likely to spread it. So if they go grocery shopping early morning and no one is in the store (say to a self-checkout) they won't be in contact with anyone. If they don't have friends and family that visit then no answering the door. We have places like that here in the sticks of VA. In LO you got such small towns so spread out that to even get COVID would be very rare that people only wear masks out of technicality and aren't enforced.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not taking something for granted means to be a little skeptical about something before accepting that it is true. Don't jump off a bridge because an authority tells you to. Assess your situation and find out if it's in your best interest.

Always isolated, yes. Which means less likely to get COVID and thus when around one other person they are less likely to catch it and thus less likely to spread it. So if they go grocery shopping early morning and no one is in the store (say to a self-checkout) they won't be in contact with anyone. If they don't have friends and family that visit then no answering the door. We have places like that here in the sticks of VA. In LO you got such small towns so spread out that to even get COVID would be very rare that people only wear masks out of technicality and aren't enforced.

In such places, and there are many in the world, the virus spreads much slower.
But it does not stop, like water it finds its level and keeps spreading.
Those people catching it can become equally dead.
Covid has no favourites. Like all previous pandemics there is no place safe from it.
You can put off the evil day by isolation, but not for ever. And when you become complacent it will get you.

Those who are isolated can not share herd immunity if it ever comes. They will never develop natural immunity. Not that herd immunity is likely anyway., The virus mutates too rapidly for that to be a reasonable prospect.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I get the intent but evangelizing needing vaccination to me is immoral. People make health decisions congruent with their own "and" others needs.

People willingly not vaccinating are not acting in a way that is congruent with the needs of others.
Those refusing to distance and wear a mask are not making decisions with the needs of others in mind.
Debate and deny it all you want, those are the facts. Wearing a mask is to protect other people (such as how a dentist wears a mouth to keep his stuff out of you, not your stuff out of the dentist). Getting vaccinated--be it for measles, polio, or covid--protects oneself as well as others. Even before this fiasco with covid those who legitimately cannot be vaccinated had to rely on others to vaccinate to be safe.
And, remember, this thread has an OP that exist because people are not taking Covid seriously, they are letting it spread and do it's worst still, and someone who doesn't even have covid is paying for that negligence.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People willingly not vaccinating are not acting in a way that is congruent with the needs of others.
Those refusing to distance and wear a mask are not making decisions with the needs of others in mind.
Debate and deny it all you want, those are the facts. Wearing a mask is to protect other people (such as how a dentist wears a mouth to keep his stuff out of you, not your stuff out of the dentist). Getting vaccinated--be it for measles, polio, or covid--protects oneself as well as others. Even before this fiasco with covid those who legitimately cannot be vaccinated had to rely on others to vaccinate to be safe.
And, remember, this thread has an OP that exist because people are not taking Covid seriously, they are letting it spread and do it's worst still, and someone who doesn't even have covid is paying for that negligence.

I can see why some people don't take it as seriously as others do (or see the same level of severity, I would personally say) since we are from all parts of the world, to generalize is totally inappropriate.

I wouldn't expect people to automatically say "Oh! I'm a time bomb... let me go vaccinate" all of the sudden. A lot of this is based on fear.

Let me ask, what exactly am I denying here?

Facts aren't magic. People read and take in the facts and make decisions for their well-being and if appropriate others as well. I was never against wearing masks, being vaccinated, and social distancing... so.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

This is for any illness, though. If someone dies of cancer because of smoking (and you knew this person well), would you not visit them at the hospital?

Or just COVID even. You tell someone you care about you won't visit them because of their health-related decisions?

I mean not everyone has empathy for strangers (or just strangers they 'choose' to have empathy for) but genuine empathy goes beyond that.

As I said I would not visit you in hospital because you are too far away.
Even if I wanted to tell you I told you so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I was never against wearing masks, being vaccinated, and social distancing... so.

And yet you've been arguing against them this entire time, and have repeatedly gave statements that indicate you aren't keeping up with current events.

I can see why some people don't take it as seriously as others do (or see the same level of severity, I would personally say) since we are from all parts of the world, to generalize is totally inappropriate.

Some people don't take the risk of heart disease from a diet rich in red meat seriously. Some think all grains are whole grain. Some even doubt we are what we eat and don't think diet is that important at all.
That doesn't make any of them right or wise, and certainly it can't be said they are making an informed decision based on available facts and data.
Some people don't take the risks of smoking seriously. Do we want to follow in their path?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The point was, though, many provaxxers don't have empathy for the unvaccinated.

Empathy is projecting yourself into another person to try to experience what he or she is experiencing, and coming away with a greater understanding and a better feeling about them. When I do this with people refusing vaccines, all I see is cowardice and antisocial sentiment. It leaves me with antipathy.

Not everybody deserves empathy for their choices. Some choices merit castigation and marginalization. The NAMBLA people want empathy. They don't know what all the fuss is about adult-child love. Their arguments are just as impassioned as the person who doesn't want a vaccine. This is also a selfish person who is unconcerned about the damage he wreaks, thinking only of his own desires.

How much empathy do you or I have for him? I can go so far as to say that it would be terrible to be born with those impulses in a world that won't tolerate you for them, but that's the limit of my empathy. Lock him up.

With AntiVa (why hasn't that word become popular?), all I can muster up is the same - it must be terrible to be afraid of doing what others expect is one's duty, but the choice to not do your part will never be acceptable however much one asks to be accepted anyway.

Maybe numbers can get people to vaccinate but just not all people are driven to make "health" decisions by force, coercion, or over dramatism. It's counterproductive and lack of empathy from people in their local environment doesn't help any more.

We've already tried educating, appealing to a sense of civic duty, and even bribing. Those who can respond to such things already have. For the rest, it's time for the stick. If that doesn't convince people to act, it's then time for forced vaccination as a matter of national security. This hospital situation puts Americans at risk just to indulge peoples "right" to do harm. I know that you don't like this answer, and seem to only see all of this in terms of the needs and fears of those who have been frightened into inaction, but others have needs and fears as well, and see the willfully vaccinated as the source much of that. Like the child who is crying at the thought of going t his doctor for a "shot," and begs you to spare him, you take the authoritarian approach, steel yourself, hold the child down, and give it its vaccine.

I saw a 15 year old girl in the ICU whose mother had been vaccinated. When asked why her daughter was unvaccinated, the mother said she'd let the daughter decide for herself. Too many people are deciding incompetently, and it is putting the nation at unnecessary risk. This mother wishes she had been a little more authoritarian. So do I.

The worst part is that they create fear, which is detrimental to our immune system, hence indirectly "killing people" doing this.

AntiVa has been spreading disinformation, putting fear into those who will listen, and in the rest of us that live among them. Now you want to condemn those who want to pressure others to get vaccinated to assuage their own fears of fearmongering and frame it as bad for their immune systems without mention of the fear these people cause.

Also, AntiVa wants empathy, but offers none. I have never seen an expression of remorse form the unvaccinated for the results of their inaction. Look at this thread. Which of the people talking about their rights has expressed concern for what they are causing the rest of us. Who here that doesn't want a vaccine has offered condolences for the damage they're doing, or expressed any concern about the hospital system being overloaded and the caregivers suffering extreme physical or emotional distress? Not one.

I do not see any empathy or contrition from anitvaxxers for the damage they cause.

Bingo.

it does seem that there are a lot of people content to let their country, and their neighbours, go through exactly that: infection, illness and death.

They want you to understand and say it's OK.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As I said I would not visit you in hospital because you are too far away.
Even if I wanted to tell you I told you so.

I don't expect you to visit a stranger in the hospital, so that's not my point; that's irrelevant to me. It goes beyond that.

Would you not visit a loved one in the hospital because it's their fault they put themselves at risk to get COVID?

 

[stvdv]

AntiVa has been spreading disinformation, putting fear into those who will listen, and in the rest of us that live among them. Now you want to condemn those who want to pressure others to get vaccinated to assuage their own fears of fearmongering and frame it as bad for their immune systems without mention of the fear these people cause.

AntiVa spreading disinformation I also don't like.

I follow the official info in Holland. I got an official letter from the government offering me a free vaccination, starting to tell me "of course you are free to take it or leave it". There was a lot of information in it. I stick to that.

IF you get different info in your country THEN you should follow the info given to you in your country

I believe that is the best anyone can do