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Featured Lucifer. is there a Devil?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Father, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    It's both. As a verb "satan" means to oppose. As a proper name, Ha-Satan refers to the prosecutor, an angel who heads the sons of Yahweh and is charged with testing the piety of mankind.
     
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  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    There is NO Lucifer.

    And Ezekiel 28, just like Isaiah 14, is talking about a real place and a human King.

    1. the Jerusalem Temple is also a type of Garden of Eden, on a mount. You can find this in rabbinical writings.

    Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (Temple, or supposed Garden location, see 2.); every precious stone was thy covering, (These stones are specifically traded in Tyre.)(also the Urim and Tumim breastplate worn by the high priest) the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth (anointed King protector of his people); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God (the Temple Mt.); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    The king would be an anointed one, protector of the people, who actually walked on the holy mount, in what they consider the original Garden of Eden area, and deals in all of the mentioned stones, etc. The stones could also refer to the Priests jeweled breastplate.

    The imagery of the Garden, with its serpent and cherubim, has been compared to the images of the Solomonic Temple with its copper serpent (the nehushtan) and guardian cherubs

    This "brazen serpent" became an object of adoration to Israel, and so remained until Hezekiah destroyed it by breaking it into fragments (II Kings xviii. 4). Jewish Encyclopedia (So the earthly Temple Eden even had a serpent.)

    "t appears that the Lebanon is an alternative placement in Phoenician myth (as in Ez 28,13, III.48) of the Garden of Eden",[16] and there are connections between paradise, the garden of Eden and the forests of Lebanon (possibly used symbolically) within prophetic writings.[17] Edward Lipinski and Peter Kyle McCarter have suggested that the Garden of the gods (Sumerian paradise), the oldest Sumerian version of the Garden of Eden, relates to a mountain sanctuary in the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon ranges.[18] Garden of Eden - Wikipedia

    An interesting study on Tyre from a Christian site - Tyre - Hastings' Dictionary of the Bible - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

    "Old Tyre was destroyed (Ezekiel 26:7-12 ), but the Babylonian army in vain wearied itself in trying to subdue the island ( Ezekiel 29:18 ). It is probable that the city finally capitulated on favourable terms. The long siege, however, had ruined her commerce, and for 50 years Tyre was a poverty-stricken town. An attempt at a republic did not improve her fortunes. She was involved in the struggle between Nebuchadnezzar II. and Pharaoh-hophra ( Jeremiah 44:30 ). was for a time under Egypt, but finally fell to Babylon, and remained a dependency until the overthrow of the Babylonian Empire. Her humbled state did not change her people’s temper. Their pride ( Ezekiel 28:2 ), their contempt for the rights of man ( Amos 1:9 ), their slave-trading propensities ( Joel 3:4-8 ) are denounced by the Hebrew prophets."

    Tyre fell to Babylon. So, this also is a tale of the fall of Babylon and her kings, just like Isaiah 14.

    *
     
  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    than who is Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12?
    The Tanakh [Full Text]
     
  4. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    The translation you have quoted had added 'lucifer' to the sentence. It just isn't there in the Hebrew.
    Already covered in post#34 and others.
     
    #44 Jedster, Oct 14, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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  6. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Is that in the Bible? ;)
     
  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    where would you get a reliable English translation of tanakh? and just how different is Judaism from say a kjv 1611?
     
  8. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    No nor is the concept of the Trinity. Why not be consistent in your protests and stop believing everything not clearly mentioned in the Bible?
     
  9. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Good points, and how different is today's Bible to the 1611 KJV....

    Missing in Modern Bibles - The Old Heresy Revived
     
  10. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Jesus said there is.

    I believe that is the first time I have seen a reference to Hell in the OT ie the deepest pit of Sheol.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Iblis in the Qu'ran isn't mentioned much but he is there.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it would be a stretch to think of him as an incarnation of the devil. More likely it is the meaning of satan as opposition just as Jesus called Peter a satan for opposing Jesus.
     
  14. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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  15. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I'm not protesting. I believe everything written in the Bible. I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet so I don't believe the Quran. So I reject what you said above because I don't believe it.

    Furthermore, I accept the doctrine of the Trinity in spite of your opinion about it. I won't debate it, it is firm doctrine the way I see it, it has been firm doctrine since before Mohammed was born.

    So we best terminate this little conversation since I won't hear your other opinions about it.
     
  16. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    And say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart." Qur'an 17:81

    This is why on every point where Christianity and Islam differs, nature of God, Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection, the Islamic narrative makes sense, has backing from the true followers of Jesus pbuh and Christians increasingly become dissatisfied cultural Christians only.....

    Just 800,000 worshippers attend a Church of England service on the average Sunday
    • Numbers in the pews have fallen to less than half the levels of the 1960s
    • Census evidence shows a widespread fall in allegiance to Christianity
    • Numbers of Christians has fallen more than four million in a decade
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586596/Just-800-000-worshipers-attend-Church-England-service-average-Sunday.html
     
  17. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Opinion noted. You finished yet or are you still hopelessly trying to convince me when I just told you that I don't wish to hear anything you have to say?
     
  18. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Do tell what did Babel (Babylon) try to do that displeased God?
     
  19. Redlucifer

    Redlucifer The Liberated

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    Hi there all,

    Yes there is a devil. The demiurge or god of our matter world but he goes by many names. You can find it in the holy and sacret books available at many religions today. Lucifer is our true saviour not jesus. Lucifer brought the knowlegde of gnostic to this world. Jesus (wolf in sheep clothes)is for those who give away their free will to take the easy way!

    I'm a true gnostic and not saying this to hurt or attack anyone. Just want to say what i think based on my own research! In my oppinion many are decieved so they never find the truth!
     
  20. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Do you folks even read the texts you are debating?

    Google The Babylonian captivity.

    *
     
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