Looking Out for Number One

[Trailblazer]

So you don't think hearing her child's cries of hunger and pleas for food encouraged this hypothetical mother to shoplift food? Was it a choice when she spent time talking herself into it and convincing herself it's the right thing to do in order to feed her child?

Maybe she thought it was the right thing to do but nevertheless she made a choice.
She could have made another choice but she chose to steal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

She could have made another choice but she chose to steal.

But who in their right mind would chose to steal?

 

[Trailblazer]

But who in their right mind would chose to steal?

Anyone who steals. The person who stole my wallet could have returned it to me but instead they chose to steal it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anyone who steals.

But a mother tormented by the suffering of her children is most certainly not in her right and normal state of mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

But a mother tormented by the suffering of her children is most certainly not in her right and normal state of mind.

If she was really psychotic that is another thing, but just being emotional does not count as a psychological disorder. Everyone gets emotional but everyone does not steal. Everyone has to feed their children but they find other ways. People are responsible for their moral choices unless they are mentally ill or mentally challenged.

So is it okay that Pres. Trump lies constantly because he cannot help himself, or is he responsible for his lies? Most people consider him responsible.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If she was really psychotic that is another thing, but just being emotional does not count as a psychological disorder.

Being emotional is not the same as psychotic, and is not the same as an mental disorder. What my example focuses on is emotional distress. It probably could qualify for a diagnosis of generalized anxiety disorder and/or unipolar depression if it leads to certain behavior difficulties and persists long enough. But that will take longer than what her kids have to eat before they starve to death.

People are responsible for their moral choices unless they are mentally ill or mentally challenged.

You are saying she chose, but she is under emotional distress and here you say she would not be responsible. According to the law she is, even though the emotional distress of hear child's pain and huger put her out of her normal state of mind (in her right mind) and primed her to steal food to feed her children. And even with mental illness, the law still holds people accountable and responsible for their actions (schizophrenics are commonly in-and-out of jail when they can't get the care they need).

 

[Trailblazer]

Being emotional is not the same as psychotic, and is not the same as an mental disorder. What my example focuses on is emotional distress. It probably could qualify for a diagnosis of generalized anxiety disorder and/or unipolar depression if it leads to certain behavior difficulties and persists long enough. But that will take longer than what her kids have to eat before they starve to death.

Don't you think there are other solutions such as going to a food bank, even standing outside the store and asking for donations. My point is that people have choices, even people with anxiety and depression.

You are saying she chose, but she is under emotional distress and here you say she would not be responsible. According to the law she is, even though the emotional distress of hear child's pain and huger put her out of her normal state of mind (in her right mind) and primed her to steal food to feed her children. And even with mental illness, the law still holds people accountable and responsible for their actions (schizophrenics are commonly in-and-out of jail when they can't get the care they need).

Clearly, this is a social problem. Nobody should ever be in a situation where they are starving to death, but the solution is not to steal or even beg, although at least begging is not illegal. There are compassionate people who would give her money, especially if a child is involved. But that is not a solution long term.

It is a serious problem when people do not think they are responsible for the choices they make and they blame other people or the situation they are in. This leads to all kinds of immorality.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Don't you think there are other solutions such as going to a food bank,

Those can be limited in resources, and limited in how many are actually around.

My point is that people have choices, even people with anxiety and depression.

But you just said unless mental illness is involved. And the point is is to demonstrate how things effect us. Of course she would say it was her choice, but as I said no person in their right mind would steal, but under the emotional distress and realization of her starving children she would be prompted to steal food as a means of survival for her children and herself. A good number of people who commit a crime aren't bad people, but they were put into extraordinarily unique and difficult positions. I used to drive papers with a guy who robbed a bank to try to pay for his mom's health care. People get desperate. It's one of the many ways in that our will becomes limited.
We have a will, but it most certainly is not free.
The other point was to demonstrate how someone can be criminally charged for things that went beyond them.

begging is not illegal.

It is, in many places.

It is a serious problem when people do not think they are responsible for the choices they make and they blame other people or the situation they are in. This leads to all kinds of immorality.

With or without you have "immorality." And it is a problem when we don't accept responsibility. But even with a limited will, and behaviors that are strongly influenced and primed by things outside of our control, our actions have consequences. It's not a matter of if we have the will to chose or not, but a matter of facts in if our actions harmed another or not. Actions that cause harm are actions that violated others, and for this violation appropriate penalties are just.

 

[PureX]

Maybe she thought it was the right thing to do but nevertheless she made a choice.
She could have made another choice but she chose to steal.

Any ideology that places material ownership above the well-being of a mother and her child is immoral. And this is why it's considered immoral by most people, including myself. We need to have laws of ownership for us to function as a society, but those laws must be superseded, when necessary, by the greater (divine) law of love for God, for one-another, and for ourselves. And the love of material possessions cannot be allowed to diminish that divine mandate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any ideology that places material ownership above the well-being of a mother and her child is immoral. And this is why it's considered immoral by most people, including myself. We need to have laws of ownership for us to function as a society, but those laws must be superseded, when necessary, by the greater (divine) law of love for God, for one-another, and for ourselves. And the love of material possessions cannot be allowed to diminish that divine mandate.

This whole conversation started as a conversation about free will, so my only point was that she chose to steal. What the punishment should be is another subject. I do not think that material things ever supersede spiritual things such as love, but we still have to maintain law and order in the world. Moreover, stealing is not right, and it is not a solution to the problem the mother has of not having money to feed her child. If everyone had that attitude of entitlement, the store would go out of business.

 

[PureX]

This whole conversation started as a conversation about free will, so my only point was that she chose to steal. What the punishment should be is another subject. I do not think that material things ever supersede spiritual things such as love, but we still have to maintain law and order in the world. Moreover, stealing is not right, and it is not a solution to the problem the mother has of not having money to feed her child. If everyone had that attitude of entitlement, the store would go out of business.

If the society of humans in which this mother exists will not willingly feed her and her child, she is obliged to "steal" the food they need to live. Calling this an "entitlement" is fine with me. And is not in any way diminishing her. She IS entitled to share in the life-sustaining resources available to her human collective. And if the human collective in which she resides does not understand this, or recognize her entitlement, then they are greedy, ignorant fools who deserve be robbed and stripped of their possessions.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you just said unless mental illness is involved. And the point is is to demonstrate how things effect us. Of course she would say it was her choice, but as I said no person in their right mind would steal, but under the emotional distress and realization of her starving children she would be prompted to steal food as a means of survival for her children and herself. A good number of people who commit a crime aren't bad people, but they were put into extraordinarily unique and difficult positions. I used to drive papers with a guy who robbed a bank to try to pay for his mom's health care. People get desperate. It's one of the many ways in that our will becomes limited.
We have a will, but it most certainly is not free.

Anxiety and depression are not mental illness. They are emotional conditions. Mental illness involves psychosis, like schizophrenia.

This is mostly about morality or lack thereof. Of course people in their right mind steal. They also murder. This is also about self vs. other – “survival for her children and herself.” There is no consideration for anyone else in society, just what belongs to her, her child.

I appreciate your compassion but many people who are in extraordinarily unique and difficult positions do not commit crimes. They find another way.

When people get desperate their self-control is limited but their free will is not limited. They still have a choice, but they rationalize that it is okay to commit crimes. The fact that it is for a family member does not make it right.

The reason religion is important is because it teaches us right from wrong and it teaches us not to be selfish. Nobody’s perfect but religion sets the ideals we should strive for. When people ignore the teachings and laws of religion, the result is selfishness and chaos.

The other point was to demonstrate how someone can be criminally charged for things that went beyond them.

I guess you mean things they could not control. Self-control is not something everyone learns and the reasons are complex. But lack of self-control does not mean they do not have free will. However, their lack of awareness of having free will could well be what causes them to act impulsively. They do not think about their choices or that they have a choice so they just act without thinking it through. In their mind they think they are just a hapless victim of circumstance.

With or without you have "immorality." And it is a problem when we don't accept responsibility. But even with a limited will, and behaviors that are strongly influenced and primed by things outside of our control, our actions have consequences. It's not a matter of if we have the will to chose or not, but a matter of facts in if our actions harmed another or not. Actions that cause harm are actions that violated others, and for this violation appropriate penalties are just.

A person can also hurt themselves by their actions, even if they do not realize it at the time, or even afterwards. I had a behavior that harmed me for 12 years but it hurt nobody else but me. During those years I tried to do something to help myself several times, but nothing worked, so I concluded that it was hopeless and outside of my control. The fact was that I could not help myself because I needed help. My sister finally cared enough to get me to a psychiatrist and that changed the behavior pattern, although it opened up a can of worms and led to years of inner healing work. But the point was that I needed help from outside of myself and there were people who could help me. None of us have to go it alone in this world. That is why there are other people. I still tend to be very self-sufficient, because that is my personality, but I do not need help now as I did before.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Mental illness involves psychosis, like schizophrenia.

Autism; Bi-polar disorder; Conduct disorder; Dyslexia; Epilepsy; well I can't think of anything that starts with F but the point is there is way more to mental illnesses that psychosis and schizophrenia. I have a few diagnoses mental illnesses, and none of them involve either psychosis or schizophrenia. But you'd think a hungry bear was chasing me the way I sometimes hurry through a grocery store because I'm having a panic attack. I get so depressed at times that even getting out of bed is extremely difficult. Depression and anxiety are illness enough that I have been partially hospitalized over it, and I was in a room full of other people who fell into an emotional black hole because of mostly depression and anxiety.

I appreciate your compassion but many people who are in extraordinarily unique and difficult positions do not commit crimes. They find another way.

Most people find themselves acting in ways they didn't think they would or could, including criminal behaviors. In times of desperation and extreme happenings, no one knows how they will handle it until they've been there.

When people get desperate their self-control is limited but their free will is not limited.

That makes no sense as if you lose some ability to control your own actions your will is too limited.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the society of humans in which this mother exists will not willingly feed her and her child, she is obliged to "steal" the food they need to live. Calling this an "entitlement" is fine with me. And is not in any way diminishing her. She IS entitled to share in the life-sustaining resources available to her human collective. And if the human collective in which she resides does not understand this, or recognize her entitlement, then they are greedy, ignorant fools who deserve be robbed and stripped of their possessions.

I do not believe in entitlements. I believe that everyone should work for a living and if they cannot work the government should provide for them. That is one reason why we have governments, to help people in need. Governments should be just, and poor people should be cared for, but society has not reached this point yet.

Back in the second half of the 19th century, Baha’u’llah wrote to the kings and rulers of the earth and He ordered them to take care of the poor, but they did not need His call because they were too greedy and selfish. Selfishness is the root of all evil.

“Beware not to deal unjustly with any one that appealeth to you, and entereth beneath your shadow. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be ye of them that lead a godly life. Rest not on your power, your armies, and treasures. Put your whole trust and confidence in God, Who hath created you, and seek ye His help in all your affairs. Succor cometh from Him alone. He succoreth whom He will with the hosts of the heavens and of the earth.

Know ye that the poor are the trust of God in your midst. Watch that ye betray not His trust, that ye deal not unjustly with them and that ye walk not in the ways of the treacherous. Ye will most certainly be called upon to answer for His trust on the day when the Balance of Justice shall be set, the day when unto every one shall be rendered his due, when the doings of all men, be they rich or poor, shall be weighed.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 251

“O ye rulers of the earth! Wherefore have ye clouded the radiance of the Sun, and caused it to cease from shining? Hearken unto the counsel given you by the Pen of the Most High, that haply both ye and the poor may attain unto tranquillity and peace. We beseech God to assist the kings of the earth to establish peace on earth. He, verily, doth what He willeth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 253​

 

[Trailblazer]

Autism; Bi-polar disorder; Conduct disorder; Dyslexia; Epilepsy; well I can't think of anything that starts with F but the point is there is way more to mental illnesses that psychosis and schizophrenia. I have a few diagnoses mental illnesses, and none of them involve either psychosis or schizophrenia. But you'd think a hungry bear was chasing me the way I sometimes hurry through a grocery store because I'm having a panic attack. I get so depressed at times that even getting out of bed is extremely difficult. Depression and anxiety are illness enough that I have been partially hospitalized over it, and I was in a room full of other people who fell into an emotional black hole because of mostly depression and anxiety.

I know mental illness consists of more than psychosis and schizophrenia. I was more referring to a diagnosis that would hold up in court wherein someone would be considered legally insane and thus not culpable for a crime. I know all about panic attacks and I believe that certain psychotropic medications are warranted in this situation. More than one time alprazolam (xanax) has kept me from derailing in a crisis situation. These drugs have their place. Ironically, psychiatrists say that xanax is addictive, but it is the antidepressants that can be addictive. Xanax can be taken PRN so it is not addicting unless someone abuses it.

I have not been clinically depressed since I got on constitutional homeopathy in 1988. I was only clinically depressed before that when I was on antidepressants. Go figure. In more recent years I have had bouts of grief where I was suicidal but I have not ever been unable to get up and go to work and I have never lost my appetite or interest in activities, the classic symptoms of major depression.

Most people find themselves acting in ways they didn't think they would or could, including criminal behaviors. In times of desperation and extreme happenings, no one knows how they will handle it until they've been there.

I fully agree. To understand a man, you must first walk a mile in his moccasin. Besides that, nobody should ever judge another person because nobody can know a person better than they know themselves.

That makes no sense as if you lose some ability to control your own actions your will is too limited.

What I meant is that even if someone loses self-control they still have free will, but it is so constrained that they cannot make a rational choice. It is still available to them, but it is inaccessible while the emotions run high. I think it is important to keep in mind that we have a choice even if we cannot make a rational choice at the time. Otherwise we feel completely powerless and that can lead to depression.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Xanax can be taken PRN so it is not addicting

Xanax is indeed addicting. Now I very much doubt your claim that you have any degree in the mental health field. You can take opiates as needed after surgery. They are still addictive. Xanax is PRN because it's rapid/fast acting unlike many other anxiolytic medications - NOT because it you won't get addicted. It IS addictive. I can only hope anyone who reads that post will not take it seriously because it's a very dangerous idea to be floating around that a rather addictive substance is non-addictive.

 

[Trailblazer]

Xanax is indeed addicting. Now I very much doubt your claim that you have any degree in the mental health field. You can take opiates as needed after surgery. They are still addictive. Xanax is PRN because it's rapid/fast acting unlike many other anxiolytic medications - NOT because it you won't get addicted. It IS addictive. I can only hope anyone who reads that post will not take it seriously because it's a very dangerous idea to be floating around that a rather addictive substance is non-addictive.

So now you are calling me a liar? I have a MA in Counseling Psychology from Chapman University in Orange County, CA. I use Xanax PRN for sleep and anxiety attacks and I am not addicted to it. I have had the same bottle for over 10 years, I use so little of it. If I was addicted I would be taking it all the time.

It is a gross generalization to say that Xanax is addictive. Xanax is only addictive if it is abused, just like alcohol is addictive if abused. I was not suggesting people take Xanax. I was just explaining what I used it for and how it worked for me. Valium and Xanax are the first drugs of choice that are given to people who come into the emergency room or to urgent care with an anxiety attack.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is a gross generalization to say that Xanax is addictive. Xanax is only addictive if it is abused, just like alcohol is addictive if abused.

The very typical trend of this opiate epidemic--which reflects addiction in general--is users do not start out abusing. But it's easy to quickly build up a tolerance to it, and that's usually when the first steps towards addiction are taken. I'm not addicted to it either. But nevertheless there are songs about how terrible it can be, even when you begin taking it as prescribed. More doctors won't even prescribe it because you begin taking one for a panic attack and it works just fine. But then you need more. And then you need even more. And you develop a compulsive behavior to seek and take the drug. This isn't 101 psych but the basics of addiction are still undergrad stuff. It's stuff you learn working in the field. Nicotine is another highly addictive substance regardless the dose. Caffeine as well is highly addictive, even when consumed once a day as morning coffee.
Alcohol may be one of the few drugs where addiction tends to start as abuse, given the nature of drinking to excess to get drunk.

 

[Trailblazer]

The very typical trend of this opiate epidemic--which reflects addiction in general--is users do not start out abusing. But it's easy to quickly build up a tolerance to it, and that's usually when the first steps towards addiction are taken. I'm not addicted to it either. But nevertheless there are songs about how terrible it can be, even when you begin taking it as prescribed. More doctors won't even prescribe it because you begin taking one for a panic attack and it works just fine. But then you need more. And then you need even more. And you develop a compulsive behavior to seek and take the drug. This isn't 101 psych but the basics of addiction are still undergrad stuff. It's stuff you learn working in the field. Nicotine is another highly addictive substance regardless the dose. Caffeine as well is highly addictive, even when consumed once a day as morning coffee.
Alcohol may be one of the few drugs where addiction tends to start as abuse, given the nature of drinking to excess to get drunk.

I know all about the addictive potential of Xanax since I built up a tolerance and I was on 4 MG daily for a long time. The reason it was prescribed was to counteract the manic effects of the antidepressants I was on.

The only reason I was able to get off the Xanax and the antidepressants was because of homeopathy. Now, if I take Xanax, I take a .25 MG at most, very infrequently. It is impossible to build up a tolerance taking that little amount that infrequently.

No, most psychiatrists won't prescribe Xanax anymore. Instead they prescribed a beta blocker for me which did not do anything for my anxiety and made me dizzy and ill. I took it once and I never took it again after that.

So caffeine is addictive. Are we not supposed to drink coffee now? I drink two cups of coffee a day at most. I see no harm in it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know all about the addictive potential of Xanax since

You said previously it's not addictive because it's prescribed PRN.