Looking Out for Number One

[PureX]

I do not believe in entitlements. I believe that everyone should work for a living and if they cannot work the government should provide for them. That is one reason why we have governments, to help people in need. Governments should be just, and poor people should be cared for, but society has not reached this point yet.

Society will never reach this point so long as it continues to ignore the ideal that every human born has a right to life, liberty, and the opportunity to pursue their own happiness (so long as they do not infringe the right of everyone else to do the same). That all humans are "entitled" to these these rights by the gift and nature of their very existence.

As to work, the gift and nature of life requires effort to sustain. Those who do not expend the effort will not be sustained. Nature, itself, will see to it. So the question then becomes; "how much effort, relative to the effort given by others within a given social collective of humans?" And that, ideally, should be determined by that collective based on the ideal of relative equality. And it is the relative application of this ideal where we humans continually fall short, and allow our ignorance, greed, prejudice, and resentments to poison the application.

Back in the second half of the 19th century, Baha’u’llah wrote to the kings and rulers of the earth and He ordered them to take care of the poor, but they did not need His call because they were too greedy and selfish. Selfishness is the root of all evil.

Selfishness is a necessary part of life, but it needs to be tempered with selflessness in equal measure. Both are destructive by themselves, and/or when either one overwhelms the other.

 

[PureX]

I appreciate your compassion but many people who are in extraordinarily unique and difficult positions do not commit crimes. They find another way.

This is a false analogy. Everyone's abilities and impediments are unique to them. What can act as a solution for any one of us cannot be held up as a given solution for anyone else. Which is what your analogy is ultimately doing. Some of us will "find another way" because we CAN. Some of us will not find another way because we CANNOT. And the reason that we cannot will be as varied and unique as we all are, and as each of our real circumstances are.

When people get desperate their self-control is limited but their free will is not limited. They still have a choice, but they rationalize that it is okay to commit crimes. The fact that it is for a family member does not make it right.

You have no idea what choices they really have, because you have no idea what their abilities and impediments are. You just think you do, because thinking you do gives you the illusion that you have the capacity to pass judgment on others, and the ability to avoid the misfortunes that they are facing. Both very pleasant delusions that many of we humans allow ourselves to engage in at the expense of others.

The reason religion is important is because it teaches us right from wrong and it teaches us not to be selfish.

And if it's "good" religion, it also teaches us to be selfish in equal measure (as we are just as valuable to God and humanity as any other human being is: no more, but also no less).

Nobody’s perfect but religion sets the ideals we should strive for. When people ignore the teachings and laws of religion, the result is selfishness and chaos.

... Self-control is not something everyone learns and the reasons are complex. But lack of self-control does not mean they do not have free will. However, their lack of awareness of having free will could well be what causes them to act impulsively. They do not think about their choices or that they have a choice so they just act without thinking it through. In their mind they think they are just a hapless victim of circumstance.

We are ALL "hapless victims of circumstance" a great deal of the time. And it's very important that we maintain the wisdom and the courage to always recognize this, even as in our minds we so much want to imagine and pretend that we are 'in control' of everything. Because it's this delusion that we are so 'in control' that encourages us to judge and condemn each other for our lack of control, when in truth it was a fantasy to presume ourselves in control to begin with. If you really want to seek out a single human trait that does us all the most harm, it's not selfishness, it's this delusion that we are so in control of everything, all the time, when we are not. Because that delusion is what drives us to turn our backs on each other, in false superiority and condemnation, every day of our lives. It's why the rich think it's their duty to have so much more than everyone else. And why everyone else blames each other for not getting what they need, want, or think they deserve.

A person can also hurt themselves by their actions, even if they do not realize it at the time, or even afterwards. I had a behavior that harmed me for 12 years but it hurt nobody else but me. During those years I tried to do something to help myself several times, but nothing worked, so I concluded that it was hopeless and outside of my control. The fact was that I could not help myself because I needed help. My sister finally cared enough to get me to a psychiatrist and that changed the behavior pattern, although it opened up a can of worms and led to years of inner healing work. But the point was that I needed help from outside of myself and there were people who could help me. None of us have to go it alone in this world. That is why there are other people. I still tend to be very self-sufficient, because that is my personality, but I do not need help now as I did before.

Then you, as much as anyone, should be able to recognize and understand that a solution is not a choice when one is unable to recognize it as such. A man can starve to death in a room made of food if he cannot recognize what food is when he sees it. So when you pass judgment on that mother for stealing food for her child and herself, because YOU think there were other solutions for her to choose from, you are presuming that YOUR ability to see those other solutions gave HER a choice. But in fact she had no choices but those she was able to see, at the time. And you have no idea what those were. Your judgment of her is based on yourself, and not on anything you actually know about her.

So, ask yourself why you were doing this, and I think you will find that it's because doing so appealed to your ego (made you feel superior to her), and because it masks over the fear you would feel if you were facing the truth of just how little in control of anything we humans really are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Selfishness is a necessary part of life, but it needs to be tempered with selflessness in equal measure. Both are destructive by themselves, and/or when either one overwhelms the other.

I agree with everything else you said except that selfishness is necessary. Taking are of one's basic needs is necessary and prudent, but selfishness is not necessary nor admirable in the eyes of God.

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 337-338
​

Ideally, people would prefer their brothers to themselves, but humanity is nowhere close to approaching that ideal. It is difficult to even imagine now, but I believe that a new race of men will emerge in the distant future wherein that will be the norm.

“The Most Great Name beareth Me witness! How sad if any man were, in this Day, to rest his heart on the transitory things of this world! Arise, and cling firmly to the Cause of God. Be most loving one to another. Burn away, wholly for the sake of the Well-Beloved, the veil of self with the flame of the undying Fire, and with faces joyous and beaming with light, associate with your neighbor.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 316​

 

[Trailblazer]

This is a false analogy. Everyone's abilities and impediments are unique to them. What can act as a solution for any one of us cannot be held up as a given solution for anyone else. Which is what your analogy is ultimately doing. Some of us will "find another way" because we CAN. Some of us will not find another way because we CANNOT. And the reason that we cannot will be as varied and unique as we all are, and as each of our real circumstances are.

Of course the solution for one person is not the same as the solution for another but I do not believe that people CANNOT find a way other than breaking the law. If everyone said they CANNOT help themselves from stealing in order to get what they think they need, what kind of a society would we be living in? Should people be able to do whatever they WANT to do just because they think there is no other way?

You have no idea what choices they really have, because you have no idea what their abilities and impediments are. You just think you do, because thinking you do gives you the illusion that you have the capacity to pass judgment on others, and the ability to avoid the misfortunes that they are facing. Both very pleasant delusions that many of we humans allow ourselves to engage in at the expense of others.

That is a straw man. I am not passing judgment upon anyone. Of course I have no idea what their abilities and impediments are, but so what? My question is as follows: should people be able to DO whatever they WANT to do just because they think that they have no choice in the matter? Should people be able to DO whatever they WANT to do just because they have some misfortunes?

I think that love and compassion needs to be tempered by equity and justice.

And if it's "good" religion, it also teaches us to be selfish in equal measure (as we are just as valuable to God and humanity as any other human being is: no more, but also no less).

I do not know what religions you are thinking of, but Jesus clearly said to deny self. That does not sound like He was promoting selfishness.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
​

Or perhaps you are thinking about this verse:

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.​

There has been an update since Jesus walked the earth. The Qur’an and Baha’i Faith say that we are to prefer our brother to ourselves.

“Charity is pleasing and praiseworthy in the sight of God and is regarded as a prince among goodly deeds. Consider ye and call to mind that which the All-Merciful hath revealed in the Qur’án: ‘They prefer them before themselves, though poverty be their own lot. And with such as are preserved from their own covetousness shall it be well.’ 7 Viewed in this light, the blessed utterance above is, in truth, the day-star of utterances. Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself. Verily, such a man is reckoned, by virtue of the Will of God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, with the people of Bahá who dwell in the Crimson Ark.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71​

We are ALL "hapless victims of circumstance" a great deal of the time. And it's very important that we maintain the wisdom and the courage to always recognize this, even as in our minds we so much want to imagine and pretend that we are 'in control' of everything. Because it's this delusion that we are so 'in control' that encourages us to judge and condemn each other for our lack of control, when in truth it was a fantasy to presume ourselves in control to begin with. If you really want to seek out a single human trait that does us all the most harm, it's not selfishness, it's this delusion that we are so in control of everything, all the time, when we are not. Because that delusion is what drives us to turn our backs on each other, in false superiority and condemnation, every day of our lives. It's why the rich think it's their duty to have so much more than everyone else. And why everyone else blames each other for not getting what they need, want, or think they deserve.

I believe that we have free will so I do not believe that we are hapless victims of circumstance. However, that does not mean I think that we can control everything. I think that we can make choices. So if something does not go the way we want we just make another choice. I think that selfishness is the root of all evil and the cause of most problems in the world. If everyone put God and others before themselves the world would be a paradise. The illusion is to think that we are happier “getting something” for ourselves when true happiness comes from doing for others.

Then you, as much as anyone, should be able to recognize and understand that a solution is not a choice when one is unable to recognize it as such. A man can starve to death in a room made of food if he cannot recognize what food is when he sees it. So when you pass judgment on that mother for stealing food for her child and herself, because YOU think there were other solutions for her to choose from, you are presuming that YOUR ability to see those other solutions gave HER a choice. But in fact she had no choices but those she was able to see, at the time. And you have no idea what those were. Your judgment of her is based on yourself, and not on anything you actually know about her.

That is a straw man to say I pass judgment on anyone. The fact that I state that I consider stealing wrong in principle does not mean I judge someone for that behavior. What you might not realize is that she is hurting herself more than anyone else, so if anything I have compassion for her because there is always a better way, even if she did not see it at the time. Stealing food once is no big deal but it is not a permanent solution to the problem. I am solution-oriented.

How do YOU know that she had no choices but those she was able to see at the time? You are making some assumptions based upon your own beliefs about people being hapless victims of circumstance with no free will. Maybe she knew there was another choice, but it was just easier to make the choice she made.

So, ask yourself why you were doing this, and I think you will find that it's because doing so appealed to your ego (made you feel superior to her), and because it masks over the fear you would feel if you were facing the truth of just how little in control of anything we humans really are.

It is your own ego that tells me about my ego, because you do not know that I want to feel superior to her. I am not trying to feel superior to anyone. I simply do not think people are helpless victims of circumstances. I believe they have free will to make choices. That changes your whole paradigm and means people are responsible for the choices they make. You have free will so you are free to think people are helpless if you want to, and I have free will so I will believe that they are not. That does not mean we can control everything, but it means we can make choices. I made the choices I made and I paid the price. I do not blame anyone for the choices I made or feel sorry for myself for what happened to me.

 

[PureX]

Of course the solution for one person is not the same as the solution for another but I do not believe that people CANNOT find a way other than breaking the law.

You can believe whatever you want, but you still don't know what you think you know about the individual in question and their abilities and circumstances.

If everyone said they CANNOT help themselves from stealing in order to get what they think they need, what kind of a society would we be living in? Should people be able to do whatever they WANT to do just because they think there is no other way?

If said 'people' are living in a society that would allow them to starve to death, or live miserable and unfulfilled for the sake of the greed and ownership of a few, then that society has failed, anyway. And it's laws deserve to be ignored and disrespected. And the founders of this specific nation and government said so in their original declaration of intent.

I am not passing judgment upon anyone. Of course I have no idea what their abilities and impediments are, but so what? My question is as follows: should people be able to DO whatever they WANT to do just because they think that they have no choice in the matter? Should people be able to DO whatever they WANT to do just because they have some misfortunes?

You are confusing and conflating two very different questions, here. One is the question of one person breaking the laws of their society for the sake of their own survival. The other is the question of people breaking the laws of their society whenever those laws stand in the way of "whatever they want". In the first instance, it is the society that has become immoral, not the thief stealing to survive, because the rules of the society are not serving the well-being of the members within it. In the second case it is the thief who has become immoral because he has placed his own desires above those of everyone else in his society. They are two very different scenarios with two very different moral assessments.

I do not know what religions you are thinking of, but Jesus clearly said to deny self. That does not sound like He was promoting selfishness.

Jesus gave only ONE command: and that was to love ourselves, each other, and God, as if this were a single idea. I take that to mean that as I do unto myself, and unto my brother, I am doing unto Him. That both I, and my fellow humans, are physical reflections/manifestations of the divine (God). That makes me just as important, and valued, as any other human being. ... Not more, but not less, either.

Mark 12:31Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I believe that we have free will so I do not believe that we are hapless victims of circumstance. However, that does not mean I think that we can control everything. I think that we can make choices. So if something does not go the way we want we just make another choice. I think that selfishness is the root of all evil and the cause of most problems in the world. If everyone put God and others before themselves the world would be a paradise. The illusion is to think that we are happier “getting something” for ourselves when true happiness comes from doing for others.

I profoundly believe this would be as wrong as the selfishness we engage in, currently. If everyone only did for others, we would all still be miserable and unfulfilled within ourselves. We need to do for others AS WE do for ourselves. And the key to this is to figure out which of the choices we have available to us at any given time will serve us all, and which serve only one or some of us at the expense of one or many others. This is the huge mistake that our current society continues to make as it's members constantly seek to serve the self or the few at the expense of another, or of many others. When they/we needs to be serving the many at the expense of as few as possible (and none at all, if possible) to be a successful cooperative, collective society of human beings.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can believe whatever you want, but you still don't know what you think you know about the individual in question and their abilities and circumstances.

Neither do you. Do you think you know? How can you know any more than I know?

If said 'people' are living in a society that would allow them to starve to death, or live miserable and unfulfilled for the sake of the greed and ownership of a few, then that society has failed, anyway. And it's laws deserve to be ignored and disrespected. And the founders of this specific nation and government said so in their original declaration of intent.

What society is this? “Allow people” to starve to death, or live miserable and unfilled? They are not living that way for the sake of the greed and ownership of a few. They are living that way because they are not earning a living. They should either get a job or if they can’t work then they should be able to get medical disability. Individuals cannot blame society for their own lack of responsibility.

You are confusing and conflating two very different questions, here. One is the question of one person breaking the laws of their society for the sake of their own survival. The other is the question of people breaking the laws of their society whenever those laws stand in the way of "whatever they want". In the first instance, it is the society that has become immoral, not the thief stealing to survive, because the rules of the society are not serving the well-being of the members within it.

The real question that needs to be answered is why they have a problem with survival and what to do about it. Clearly, most people do not have that problem, even poor people, so it seems to me that the individual is the one with the problem, not society.

Why has the society become immoral? What is immoral? How are the rules of the society not serving the well-being of the members within it? What do you think that society should do for those members?

In the second case it is the thief who has become immoral because he has placed his own desires above those of everyone else in his society. They are two very different scenarios with two very different moral assessments.

I do not see much difference between the two scenarios. Both these people are putting their own desires above those of others in society. One needs the money to survive and the other one doesn’t need it to survive, but the 100-dollar question is why the one needs that money to survive?

Jesus gave only ONE command: and that was to love ourselves, each other, and God, as if this were a single idea. I take that to mean that as I do unto myself, and unto my brother, I am doing unto Him. That both I, and my fellow humans, are physical reflections/manifestations of the divine (God). That makes me just as important, and valued, as any other human being. ... Not more, but not less, either.

I did not say that we should feel less important or less valued than anyone else. Jesus said to do onto others as we would do onto ourselves but Baha’u’llah said we should prefer our brothers to ourselves. It is a higher standard to live up to in this new day of mankind because mankind has progressed since the days of Jesus.

I profoundly believe this would be as wrong as the selfishness we engage in, currently. If everyone only did for others, we would all still be miserable and unfulfilled within ourselves. We need to do for others AS WE do for ourselves. And the key to this is to figure out which of the choices we have available to us at any given time will serve us all, and which serve only one or some of us at the expense of one or many others. This is the huge mistake that our current society continues to make as it’s members constantly seek to serve the self or the few at the expense of another, or of many others. When they/we needs to be serving the many at the expense of as few as possible (and none at all, if possible) to be a successful cooperative, collective society of human beings.

I was not suggesting we ONLY do for others but rather that we prefer others to ourselves. Humans are basically selfish so it requires an effort and sacrifice to put others before self. Most people only think of themselves and their immediate family and friends but that is not what the Baha’I Faith teaches. It teaches that we are all interconnected parts of one human family so what affects one person affects the whole.

“It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 250​

 

[PureX]

You are clearly invested in victim-blaming, and will not acknowledge it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are clearly invested in victim-blaming, and will not acknowledge it.

You do not have to acknowledge anything I say, but I am going to say it.

You have that backwards. It is the so-called victim that is blaming others for their plight. I am just pointing that out.

We are all responsible for our own actions unless we are mentally ill or mentally challenged. That is why courts of law hold people accountable for their actions. One cannot be held accountable unless they are responsible, that is an oxymoron.

In society, some people have more money and possessions and some people have less. The reasons for this are not simple, they are complex. However, many poor people are very happy and they never complain or blame anyone else for their situation. Many poor people are much happier than rich people which only shows that money does not buy happiness. If it did, there would not be so many wealthy people committing suicide.

Many people were born with good parents and had a good childhood so their lives were a lot easier than the lives of those of us who had parents who did not even want us and gave us no emotional support, let alone the time of day. Some people are also born with hereditary problems. However, it is not fair for me to blame those people who had it better than me because that was not their fault. It is just the luck of the draw.

Many people are able to work their way out of a bad childhood and do great things for themselves and others in society, which shows that we are not victims of circumstance. But many are unable to rise above a bad childhood so those of us who have been able to should have love and compassion towards people who need help. Telling them they are victims is not helping them. It only serves to keep them stuck in their situation. No mental health professional would ever disenable a client that way.

Nobody is a victim of anyone else because God gave everyone a brain to think and free will to act. Blaming other people or society for one's plight is the worst way to think and live. Abdicating responsibility is a no win situation. By playing the victim role we are saying that there is a perpetrator, but there is no perpetrator unless we are actually the victim of a crime. If we allow people to abuse us that is a choice we make. If we need help making better choices there are always those who can help us and want to. That is why there are women's shelters.

Clearly, life is not as easy for some people as it is for others, but blaming other people or society for ones situation or one's actions is the worst possible way a person can think and live. Moreover, people who enable the victim to remain a victim when they are not a victim at all are not doing them a favor. All that accomplishes is to dis-empower people from changing themselves and their behavior.

None of what I said precludes love and compassion towards others, but encouraging a person to remain a victim is not love. It is enabling.

 

[Vaderecta]

"You gotta look out for number one, but don't step in number two." - Rodney Dangerfield

Who is your number one? You? God? Something else?

Loaded question and one many people get wrong. IMHO.

Your number one can be a ton of things. Maybe its so important that your here and you be entertained and happy because everyone else is somehow less. Its a common delusion. Not sure where you were born but in my country and many others we have this idea that we are all born equal. I put a lot of stock in that idea. We all come from all walks of life. Some of us had a silver spoon and others a silver bullet but at the end of the day, in the usa... we are all americans. Some of us voted trump, some hillary but at the end of the day we might be neighbors. If someone wanted to mess with us they would find ways to divide us and make us think we are not all americans. You can't be an american you voted for whoever...

This is all nonsense. You need to look out for each other. There is nothing inherently wrong with looking out for just yourself but I feel it is really short sighted and misguided. It will not make you rich. It will not make you happy. It will just be a difference of what you choose to do with your brief time on this planet.

It is brief.