Looking for a Source about Ein Kelokeinu

[Harel13]

Because I like seared tuna, I'll link you these:

Questionable cause - Wikipedia
Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia
and also
Grandiosity - Wikipedia

All hail the return of Tumah...

 

[Harel13]

Well, this is interesting. We appear to be in the middle of a Jewish Rfer geulah.

 

[RabbiO]

Because I like seared tuna....

You've been missed. All good?

 

[Tumah]

The practice among Ashkenazic Jewry outside of Israel is not to say Ein Kelokeinu every day. I'm trying to find a source and reasoning behind that. I thought I read a reason (not just because one who said it would lose time from work - R. Hershler on page 2 here) which would lead me to other questions, but have been unable to (re)find it so I won't even put it out there yet.

Any help appreciated.

Have you seen this?
אנציקלופדיה יהודית דעת - אין כאלהינו ;

 

[Tumah]

You've been missed. All good?

Thank G-d, just been very busy. In addition to my day job, I've also been teaching a course, so I've been needing my nights for preparing. I appreciate your concern.

 

[Harel13]

Have you seen this?
אנציקלופדיה יהודית דעת - אין כאלהינו ;

@rosends It says here what I think @dybmh was referring to about the 100 brachot.

 

[rosends]

Have you seen this?
אנציקלופדיה יהודית דעת - אין כאלהינו ;

Thanks (and nice to see you around) -- most of this is stuff that I found in the sources but what is interesting is:

1. The claim that we say E"K bnosaf (which seems to me to be "in addition to" when, in fact, we say E"K first, and then the ketoret are in addition to it,

but more interesting is

2. The reference to the Gr"a practice at the end doesn't make it clear if the practice is to say E"K AND Ketoret or just E"K daily.

 

[rosends]

@rosends It says here what I think @dybmh was referring to about the 100 brachot.

Yes which still leads to the question "if I can get more brachot on a Tuesday and be assured of my 100 more quickly, what's so bad about that?"

 

[dybmh]

Yes which still leads to the question "if I can get more brachot on a Tuesday and be assured of my 100 more quickly, what's so bad about that?"

Mussaf for Shabbat has a special quality which makes E-K more appropriate?

 

[Harel13]

Yes which still leads to the question "if I can get more brachot on a Tuesday and be assured of my 100 more quickly, what's so bad about that?"

Perhaps that's the reason in itself: to not have you view the brachot as something to be crossed off of a checklist.

 

[Jake1001]

I don't know why you would follow someone you say is demented, but if that works for you, have at it.

I don't think you do as you have said "The issue is respect for G-d, not electronics, permanence, etc., I think" but the halachic argument centers around the definition of those terms and their iteration in the real world. As to what you impute as my recommendation, I don't know where you get that. I was the one specifically objecting to that while you said that you blindly follow your (demented) rabbi. You seem to be more lost than I thought.

And don't worry -- I don't crave your forgiveness.

RR, the problem I have with your approach is its within a closed system of Torah and Talmud. Big R has read a little analysis, but he’s mainly Conservodox. You operate within a fixed set of assumptions which limits your understanding. Btw I studied Talmud for 7 years, so I know a lot about Halacha. If you studied physics or chemistry beyond the high school level we could relate better. I think. And, which of the 3 Moses’ is your fav? No hints big R.

 

[Jake1001]

Thank G-d, just been very busy. In addition to my day job, I've also been teaching a course, so I've been needing my nights for preparing. I appreciate your concern.

Whats your day job ? What course are you teaching?

 

[Harel13]

RR, the problem I have with your approach is its within a closed system of Torah and Talmud. Big R has read a little analysis, but he’s mainly Conservodox. You operate within a fixed set of assumptions which limits your understanding. Btw I studied Talmud for 7 years, so I know a lot about Halacha. If you studied physics or chemistry beyond the high school level we could relate better. I think. And, which of the 3 Moses’ is your fav? No hints big R.

Arguably, every belief system is "closed" as every belief system has its own boundaries. Even your 3 R's system.

 

[Jake1001]

Arguably, every belief system is "closed" as every belief system has its own boundaries. Even your 3 R's system.

Haha, Harel, you are a funny dude ! What does Torah tell us about creation ? G-d created the heaven and earth. Who is G-d? A computer simulator ?

 

[Tumah]

Whats your day job ? What course are you teaching?

I'm a SIEM engineer and I teach a course in Cybersecurity.

 

[Tumah]

Thanks (and nice to see you around) -- most of this is stuff that I found in the sources but what is interesting is:

1. The claim that we say E"K bnosaf (which seems to me to be "in addition to" when, in fact, we say E"K first, and then the ketoret are in addition to it,

I don't think the order we put it necessarily defines which must have been first.

but more interesting is

2. The reference to the Gr"a practice at the end doesn't make it clear if the practice is to say E"K AND Ketoret or just E"K daily.

That's true, but I'd guess it means everything since it's that whole portion that's added on afterward in nusach Ashkenaz siddurim.

 

[rosends]

Perhaps that's the reason in itself: to not have you view the brachot as something to be crossed off of a checklist.

Not a checklist, but an obligation and why should I not be zariz to fulfill the obligation -- makdimin l'mitzvos.

 

[rosends]

RR, the problem I have with your approach is its within a closed system of Torah and Talmud. Big R has read a little analysis, but he’s mainly Conservodox. You operate within a fixed set of assumptions which limits your understanding. Btw I studied Talmud for 7 years, so I know a lot about Halacha. If you studied physics or chemistry beyond the high school level we could relate better. I think. And, which of the 3 Moses’ is your fav? No hints big R.

The problem I have with your approach is that you make a lot of assumptions about me instead of actually looking at what I write, and you feel the need to label people and situations. If you studied reading comprehension beyond the elementary school level, we could relate better.

 

[rosends]

I don't think the order we put it necessarily defines which must have been first.


That's true, but I'd guess it means everything since it's that whole portion that's added on afterward in nusach Ashkenaz siddurim.

so which is the ikar? Is ketoret added because it is a logical extension of E"K or is E"K added because it is a nice lead in to ketoret? Could we say one without the other, and if so, which? Chicken and egg?

 

[Harel13]

Not a checklist, but an obligation and why should I not be zariz to fulfill the obligation -- makdimin l'mitzvos.

I hear you. The flip side is feeling less of an obligation for later tefillot if you've already fulfilled your 100.