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Looking for a Source about Ein Kelokeinu

Discussion in 'Judaism DIR' started by rosends, Aug 3, 2020.

  1. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The practice among Ashkenazic Jewry outside of Israel is not to say Ein Kelokeinu every day. I'm trying to find a source and reasoning behind that. I thought I read a reason (not just because one who said it would lose time from work - R. Hershler on page 2 here) which would lead me to other questions, but have been unable to (re)find it so I won't even put it out there yet.

    Any help appreciated.
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    "The Sabbath Service" by BS. Jacobson "Sinai Publishing - TelAviv 5741/1981. There's an entire chapter on Ein Kelokeinu starting on page 317 describing its inclusion in Mussaf for Shabbat.

    For why it's not recited on weekdays, the above sources it to "Darche Moshe on Tur ( Chap. 233 )"

    Also, It's not a long chapter, if you want I can scan the pages for you.
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I found what I thought was what you were referring to
    דרכי משה - אורח חיים - איסרלש, משה בן ישראל (רמ"א), 1525-1572 (page 68 of 178)

    but 233 is talking about the laws of timing out when you daven mincha. So I'm not sure if I'm just missing something here.
     
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  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I did find the Ramo's statement on the S"A 132 that Ein Kelokeinu is tied to saying Pitum haketoret (the discussion of the incense) which must be said precisely and there is fear that on a weekday, someone who has to rush off to work might not say the incense section properly, skipping an item. Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chayim 132:2

    It doesn't deal with the question of Ein Kelokeinu on its own, though, which raises another question in my mind.
     
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  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    This section (233) seems to be talking about the timing of when you pray mincha and ma'ariv -- how early you can pray ma'ariv based on when you chose to pray mincha.
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Well, the point that was being made in the citation I provided is that we are encouraged to offer 100 blessings per day. Ein Kelokeinu fills the gap of less blessings in the Amidah for Shabbat.
     
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  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is a standard explanation though it is objected two on a couple of grounds -- one that according to many, a blessing that lacks either God's name or a declaration of his kingship doesn't count as a blessing, all the more so, something that lacks both. This also seems to indicate that one can deal with Ein Kelokeinu as an individual unit, not just as an extension of the incense, and one can develop a reason for saying IT, not just because there is a reason for reciting the litany of incense ingredients. Now I just have to find some text that discusses whether severing this relationship is acceptable.
     
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  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So here's where I am right now:

    My underlying question was based on that I have heard that a non-Israeli Ashkenazic Jew does not say E"K on a non-sabbath because one might lack the proper kavanah when saying it. So far I haven't found a confirmation of this. The sources seem to say that one doesn't say E"K on a non-sabbath because one might lack proper kavanah when saying the incense litany which is attached to E"K.

    This still leaves me with the question of "since when do we remove a section of prayer out of fear that a person won't say it properly?"

    The answer the commentators give is "it is limited and specific to the incense litany because the text of the incense litany says 'one who misses any of the ingredients is liable for the death penalty' - and since reciting is like offering, one who misses an ingredient in the SAYING is likewise liable for the death penalty."

    This answer is hotly contested not only because not everyone accepts that reciting is tantamount to actual giving, but also because of which sections are held to this standard and whether all of the incense section would count. So the question of saying the incense at the end of prayers is unresolved in my mind.

    This leaves the logical conclusion of "if I don't have to go to work so I'm not in a rush, should I say it?" but now I also have the question of "Is E'K inherently and inextricably a part of the incense litany or can it be considered on its own, and if it can be separated, why not say it as the fear about missing something is limited to the incense part".

    If the purpose is to get to 100 blessings and E'K is useful for this, then why not say it everyday, just to be sure? Instead of relying on what I MIGHT be able to do if I eat enough, pray enough etc, why not fulfill the practice sooner with some "sure-thing" blessings and not pass up that opportunity? But can I see E'K as its own unit of prayer, so I can say it WITHOUT reciting the incense litany so I can avoid that other issue?
     
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  10. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Hi Rabbi R, I always liked Ein Keloheinu, it was one of my fav songs ! I also like the part about Ein Komosheinu and Ato hu mosheinu!!

    I think big R likes these songs too, but he sings them with a Queens accent (I think) !!
     
    #10 Jake1001, Aug 5, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
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  11. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Hi Rabbi R., why didn’t you put a dash (-) between the G and d ? I was taught to do this our of respect for G-d (I think). Just out of curiosity, do you wear a kippa?
     
  12. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The question of whether the English word spelled g o d (when capitalized) is a "name" of Hashem that cannot be erased or used in a secular context is unsettled in my mind. I think the Kitzur says it is but others (IIRC) say otherwise. So I'm inconsistent in how I spell it. Sometimes with a dash, sometimes not.

    To answer your question, yes.
     
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  13. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    I’m not so great with that response. Because I’m an engineer, I’m pretty logical. So to say G-d one day out of respect and the other the next day doesn’t make sense (I think). Can you tell us in what other ways your logic is faulty ?

    Same question for big R.
     
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  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall saying that my logic was faulty, just that I am inconsistent in my behavior, partially because I'm not clear on the "right" answer since there is argument among sources.
     
  15. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Inconsistent behavior is illogical. Unfortunately, most religious extremists are inconsistent and illogical (I think).
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    OK, fine. Label me illogical if that makes you feel better.
     
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  17. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Inconsistent behavior may be illogical, it is also very human.

    (I actually wrote a much longer response, but it is harder to take back words than it is to leave them unsaid. Think pillow feathers.)
     
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  18. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Thank you, Rabbi Rosen, it makes me feel better to know that you accept the assumption that you are illogical (I think).
     
  19. Jake1001

    Jake1001 Computer Simulator

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    Thank you, big R, for this short response. I would like to see the full version as well. You are welcome to post it publically or send it to my private email. You know you and Rabbi Rosen are two of my fav Rabbis and I enjoy arguing with you.

    illogical behavior is human but no excuse for doing the wrong thing. If we allow Rabbi Rosen to put the o in G-d the next thing he might do is use his phone or car on Shabbas. We cannot allow such transgressions from our religious leadership. If you talk the talk you have to walk the walk. (I think). Of course, I’m just a simple congregant, so I can do whatever I want :)
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Well, I accept YOUR assumption and need to label as your own comfort measure.
     
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