Life From Dirt?

[Heyo]

If you presume God did not create the universe or give life then of course you think science is on a better footing.

"Look at the trees!"

I don't know how you see evidence for a designer in that clip. I see the work of scientists and artists who have used the scientific method to observe and then visualise the inner workings of a cell. Each step in the very complex process obeys the laws of nature, not a single miracle necessary. It's scientists who get **** done, not a single apologist spent their career figuring this out, no prayer was answered in revealing the chemistry.

 

[George-ananda]

Maybe life sprang from dirt 3.5 billion years ago though abiogenesis but I’m beginning to seriously doubt it. The God theory is sounding more and more plausible.

I agree with that, although in these kind of debates I tend not to use the loaded word 'God' but rather 'intelligence and intent'.

At some point the question becomes did these many many mindbogglingly complex process come about through just the forces accepted by science versus the possibility of 'intelligence and intent' above the physical level existing in the universe.

For me the evidence from the paranormal indicates there is indeed nonphysical intelligence in the universe, so 'intelligence and intent' becomes the most believable hypothesis for me.

 

[Valjean]

If you presume God did not create the universe or give life then of course you think science is on a better footing.

I don't understand how the two are related, and science is the most productive modality ever devised.

"God created the universe" or "God gives life" does not explain the mechanisms involved, or even what life is. It's just an assertion of agency.
Science is a method of investigating and testing how the world works. It follows evidence, not revelation or scripture.

If there's no objective evidence that God did these things, is it reasonable to believe He did? Couldn't I make the same claim about elves or Brahma?

 

[YoursTrue]

Saying that the universe made itself and came to life is more magic than to say it was designed and created imo



You do not get to say that you know that the Bible is wrong. That is another claim of faith,,,,,,,,,,,, which you claim not to have.

In agreement, faith is a gift from God. Only God can give this gift. I learned that when I first decided to pray. Thanks.
Galatians 5:22 - King James Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

 

[Bthoth]

In agreement, faith is a gift from God. Only God can give this gift. I learned that when I first decided to pray. Thanks.
Galatians 5:22 - King James Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

"" I learned that when I first decided """"

Yes, you decided! That is just like judaism, the individual must make the choice to keep the commandments.

The bar/bat mitzvah is the child making the commitment.

 

[Valjean]

Science is about the how and religion is about the why. Science tells us nothing about the why question. Those answers come from religion, or should I say, from the revelation from the true God.
All science is, is a tool of humans that we can use to find out about the physical world. It has it's limitations but some people see the physical realm as the be all and end all of reality and so those limitations are less visible to them.

Here we're in agreement. Our difference, I think, is epistemic.
Science is productive, observable and repeatable. It produces verifiable results and universal consensus.

Religion, at least western religion, is not even an investigative modality. It produces subjective and inconsistent results. No consensus of why or purpose is ever clearly established.
Science follows objective evidence. Religion is faith-based, and without objective verifiability.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You do not get to say that you know that the Bible is wrong. That is another claim of faith,,,,,,,,,,,, which you claim not to have.

I don't believe the Bible is wrong based on mere faith. I believe it is wrong based on the numerous times I've read and studied its content, as well as many years of life experience, which has consistently demonstrated to me that it is wrong. I believe the Bible is inaccurate, misleading, and riddled with multiple contradictions because of these reasons. As I've previously stated on a similar topic (see here), I essentially studied my way out of believing in the Bible.

 

[Valjean]

Many claim that evidence is not evidence.

...And some claim the Earth is flat.

So how do they assess reality; what tools do they use; how are conclusions verified?

 

[Valjean]

I believe that both the created and the creator exist.
There is just one true God.
The more science finds out, the more evidence there is for a creator/designer.

This is simply not true. The more science finds out, the more traditional underpinnings of religion are toppled. Phenomena previously attributed to God are discovered to be natural outcomes of unconscious physics and chemistry. Religious apologetics becomes more and more abstract, convoluted, and objectively unsupportable.

If you think that this universe has existed forever in some form and there was no need of a designer then you should be able to believe the designer could have existed forever without a designer. Why the double standards here?

Few believe this universe has existed forever; certainly not most scientists.
It's the religious who argue for both the necessity of a creator and an uncreated creator.
The Kalam argument and an uncreated creator are contradictory. At best, it leads to an endless regression.

An extra layer of complexity means nothing unless you think that the simplest answer is always the right one. But really the existence of the universe forever and with no designer is not really the simplest imo anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the existence of a designer certainly explains the why question for the existence of anything and explains human experience in this area of God.

"Goddit!" is a claim way beyond any argument from parsimony, it's a claim of magic, of effect without mechanism.

A claim of designer explains nothing, it merely asserts an agent. It does not address why, only who. It's an unnecessary special pleading.

But for you that is experience which does not even count as evidence because of your faith in empiricism and the only way.

Empiricism requires no faith, that's what makes it empirical.

It is a strawman to claim that the Bible has been falsified just because you think your particular interpretation has been falsified.

No, there are clear, easily fact-checked falsehoods and contradictions in the Bible. No interpretation necessary.

That is the sort of thing we have in the human experience of God and spirits. On the one hand you want that and otoh that is not evidence for you.

Evidence is evidence. Evidence for you is merely a gut feeling, delusion or hallucination. There are plenty of those, but, inasmuch as they're all over the board, I consider "personal evidence" unreliable.

It is you making the God-claim. The burden of proof is on you. If you cannot meet your burden with reasonable and objective evidence, non-belief is the logical and rational default, no?

I can't remember why I made no comment. It could have been that I agree. It could have been that I was overloaded with you and your gang of atheist/skeptics who attack theists in a swarm when they think they have stepped outside the atheist/sceptic dogma in some way (especially this dogma)

What dogma do atheists and skeptics promote? Reason? Logic? Maths? Are these a dogma?
Were making no ontological claims. We're starting with a blank slate. All we need do is point out the errors in your own claims to establish non-belief as the rational default.

 

[Valjean]

In agreement, faith is a gift from God. Only God can give this gift. I learned that when I first decided to pray. Thanks.
Galatians 5:22 - King James Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

Irrationality, unevidenced belief, is a gift from God?

 

[YoursTrue]

Soil, dirt, clay and life:
I was just listening to someone talking about her "red dirt" from her home state and she mentioned how things grow from that dirt. Evidently called red soil. From wikipedia:
"Red soils contain large amounts of clay and are generally derived from the weathering of ancient crystalline and metamorphic rock. They are named after their rich red color, which can vary from reddish brown to reddish yellow as a result of their high iron content. Red soil can be good or poor growing soil depending on how it is managed." I am mentioning this because the Bible says God took Adam and more life from -- you know what -- the DIRT. or soil. Exactly how He put the molecules together, the Bible doesn't say. But life CAN come from dirt, or soil, if it is God's will.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Soil, dirt, clay and life:
I was just listening to someone talking about her "red dirt" from her home state and she mentioned how things grow from that dirt. Evidently called red soil. From wikipedia:
"Red soils contain large amounts of clay and are generally derived from the weathering of ancient crystalline and metamorphic rock. They are named after their rich red color, which can vary from reddish brown to reddish yellow as a result of their high iron content. Red soil can be good or poor growing soil depending on how it is managed." I am mentioning this because the Bible says God took Adam and more life from -- you know what -- the DIRT. or soil. Exactly how He put the molecules together, the Bible doesn't say. But life CAN come from dirt, or soil, if it is God's will.

"molecules" ey?

Is this you acknowledging that life began as simple molecules after which evolution took over, and just saying "god made the molecules"?
Or is this just you grasping at straws again?

 

[YoursTrue]

"" I learned that when I first decided """"

Yes, you decided! That is just like judaism, the individual must make the choice to keep the commandments.

The bar/bat mitzvah is the child making the commitment.

The history of Israel shows that many times the people willfully did not keep God's standards. Yes, I found God. I am happy I did, very happy. I have relatives who had bar mitzvahs. I even helped a student prepare for her bat mitzvah.
I can tell you they didn't (1) have a choice in it, and (2) did not know what they were doing, and (3) certainly did not care to learn more after that because they weren't taught and (4) do not follow the religion. (Have a nice day...) I made the choice after asking (God) and studying, praying, going to libraries to make sure of what I was learning -- thankful I had the opportunity. Looking forward to the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't believe the Bible is wrong based on mere faith. I believe it is wrong based on the numerous times I've read and studied its content, as well as many years of life experience, which has consistently demonstrated to me that it is wrong. I believe the Bible is inaccurate, misleading, and riddled with multiple contradictions because of these reasons. As I've previously stated on a similar topic (see here), I essentially studied my way out of believing in the Bible.

Matthew 13 - As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Matthew 13 - As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

Duncan Macleod - "There can be only one"

 

[Bthoth]

The history of Israel shows that many times the people willfully did not keep God's standards.

I know and those are the ones that did not make it.

Yes, I found God. I am happy I did, very happy. I have relatives who had bar mitzvahs.

The choice is still within both referenced.

I even helped a student prepare for her bat mitzvah.

because she wanted too and had too per the culture.

I can tell you they didn't (1) have a choice in it, and (2) did not know what they were doing, and (3) certainly did not care to learn more after that because they weren't taught and (4) do not follow the religion.

Sure they did, but the parents/culture impose the requirement. Did you ever question why?

(Have a nice day...)

There all nice.

I made the choice after asking (God) and studying, praying, going to libraries to make sure of what I was learning -- thankful I had the opportunity.

Again, the choice. It's OK to know that YOU did it.

Looking forward to the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

Resurrection? Just stop there, flesh is not regrowing onto old bones and the memories of the old family member is not going back into the minds of the dead.

The high hopes are just man made ideas. please go back to the library to identify how ridiculous the concept resurrection could even encompass.

Always remember; Magic is not an option!

 

[YoursTrue]

I know and those are the ones that did not make it.

The choice is still within both referenced.

because she wanted too and had too per the culture.

Sure they did, but the parents/culture impose the requirement. Did you ever question why?

There all nice.





Again, the choice. It's OK to know that YOU did it.

Resurrection? Just stop there, flesh is not regrowing onto old bones and the memories of the old family member is not going back into the minds of the dead.

The high hopes are just man made ideas. please go back to the library to identify how ridiculous the concept resurrection could even encompass.

Always remember; Magic is not an option!

Remember the account of bones coming to life seen by the prophet? Even Maimonides believed in the resurrection. So glad I do now. Hallelujah, may God be praised. Thankful for His book.

 

[YoursTrue]

I know and those are the ones that did not make it.

The choice is still within both referenced.

because she wanted too and had too per the culture.

Sure they did, but the parents/culture impose the requirement. Did you ever question why?

There all nice.





Again, the choice. It's OK to know that YOU did it.

Yes, good to hear you realize that. I was looking at a certain point. I needed help. I asked around and finally prayed. He showed himself to me. My family and other associates objected as I continued my studies and put into action what I was learning. But anyway -- God brought me safely through.

 

[Bthoth]

Remember the account of bones coming to life seen by the prophet?

Which lines of bible? Quote them, with book and scripture.

Even Maimonides believed in the resurrection.

An old scholar.............. lots of knew ones do too but not doctors and actual people that can save and preserve life.

So glad I do now. Hallelujah, may God be praised. Thankful for His book.

I love the wisdom of the good BOOKS too. Lots of them and from all over the world.

Keep reading.

 

[YoursTrue]

Which lines of bible? Quote them, with book and scripture.

Ezekiel 37 explains about the prophet, his communication with HaShem and the dry bones. I'll have to read it word for word later, I hope you get a chance to also. I'm glad we're talking about it somewhat.