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Life From Dirt?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No explanation that does not include any gods can be trusted. It is all speculation based on the naturalistic presupposition when it comes to those things that God has said that He has done.

This statement says it all.
No need to reply or go in on anything else you say.

The fact that this is your position, exposes your dogmatic stance on your a priori beliefs.
The irony is also through the roof that you then also say that "if god isn't included, it's speculation based".

That is just hilarious.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Saying that the universe made itself and came to life is more magic than to say it was designed and created imo



You do not get to say that you know that the Bible is wrong. That is another claim of faith,,,,,,,,,,,, which you claim not to have.

The problems with the historical reliability of the Pentateuch stories is not based on just faith. It is based on evidence archaeological, geologic, and other historical records Events around Noah's flood, Exodus and Sodom and Gomorrah lack historical provenance based on sound evidence as described in the Bible. Yes, these stories may contain some fact, but it has been demonstrated that these stories are based on an Amallgam of stories and memories compiled after 600 BCE.

Absolutely no Hebrew reords before 600 BCE to give factual provenance for the Pentateuch records.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Accepting a claim without evidence is blind faith.
Yes.
Many people have evidence for their belief that we might not think is good evidence but most people have evidence or reasons for their beliefs imo.
Okay. I think we're discussing the nature of the evidence, aren't we?
And it requires not much faith at all to not accept something based on lack of evidence.
It requires no faith.
But as you say, you are not saying that Pixies are definitely not stealing your keys, so to say they are not, needs a tiny bit of faith. :)
Can you explain how?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Science is fine when it is not speculation about how nature did thing that God has said that He did.
Why do you think that science is 100% correct about these things when all science can do is look at chemistry and speculate about how nature did it?



Of course He has a problem when people do evil in their life-time.
Evidence for the existence of a creator and designer is so strong that it is amazing that people want to close their eyes to it.
Then how come every time I ask you for this obvious evidence, I never get it? What is it?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Okay do you remember the audio recordings? Would you like to discuss those?

Maybe it should. You could have asked them why they disagreed.

Okay, I would suggest that we work on one technique at a time. If you tell me how you study something and how you analyze it I may be able to come up with some helpful suggestions and valid criticisms.

I would say that, for me, the accumulation of things I've experienced has personally convinced me that things occur that have no explanation within known science and suggest things colloquially called 'paranormal'. If you really think all the claims and investigations do not point to things not explainable by current science and suggest things colloquially called 'paranormal', then you should not be a believer in paranormal phenomena. We then disagree about the overall accumulation of evidence and argumentation and will have to fork in the road. I mean no disrespect to you, Subduction Zone. As I have said many times in my posts, I won't argue and debate with skeptics about my experiences with the paranormal. After due consideration, I've decided to stick with this personal boundary on the forum. I've shared my personal experiences, and as in real life, when presenting any potential evidence of paranormal activity, I let the chips fall where they may. I'm not interested in convincing skeptics that the paranormal is real. However, if I'm offered a suggestion about examining evidence without criticism that will lead to an argument, then I will listen and take the suggestion into consideration. I won't discuss it further.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I would say that, for me, the accumulation of things I've experienced has personally convinced me that things occur that have no explanation within known science and suggest things colloquially called 'paranormal'. If you really think all the claims and investigations do not point to things not explainable by current science and suggest things colloquially called 'paranormal', then you should not be a believer in paranormal phenomena. We then disagree about the overall accumulation of evidence and argumentation and will have to fork in the road. I mean no disrespect to you, Subduction Zone. As I have said many times in my posts, I won't argue and debate with skeptics about my experiences with the paranormal. After due consideration, I've decided to stick with this personal boundary on the forum. I've shared my personal experiences, and as in real life, when presenting any potential evidence of paranormal activity, I let the chips fall where they may. I'm not interested in convincing skeptics that the paranormal is real. However, if I'm offered a suggestion about examining evidence without criticism that will lead to an argument, then I will listen and take the suggestion into consideration.
Okay, you do not have to. I was merely trying to help. The problem is with issues like this is that it is very easy to fool oneself. That is where proper application of the scientific method can help. But as I said, one is taking a risk because a cherished belief can be shown to be wrong when one does so. Many of us want to believe in something. And some of us want to know as much as we can. The two stances conflict quite often
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Accepting a claim without evidence is blind faith. Many people have evidence for their belief that we might not think is good evidence but most people have evidence or reasons for their beliefs imo.
Many claim evidence that really isn't evidence.
And it requires not much faith at all to not accept something based on lack of evidence. But as you say, you are not saying that Pixies are definitely not stealing your keys, so to say they are not, needs a tiny bit of faith. :)
Withholding belief of unevidenced claims is reasonable, is it not?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Okay, you do not have to. I was merely trying to help. The problem is with issues like this is that it is very easy to fool oneself. That is where proper application of the scientific method can help. But as I said, one is taking a risk because a cherished belief can be shown to be wrong when one does so. Many of us want to believe in something. And some of us want to know as much as we can. The two stances conflict quite often

Thank you for your understanding, Subduction Zone. I've been involved in the paranormal/parapsychology field for sixteen years, and I understand the concern about believing in the paranormal just for the sake of it and not taking the risk to disprove a potential paranormal experience. I've seen it happen from time to time while investigating with other people. However, I've always tried to debunk any alleged poltergeist activity because, as explained in my post here, my primary objective when analyzing any potential evidence of paranormal activity is to try and debunk it first in order to determine whether I can authenticate it or not. I use as much science as I can, but science doesn't yet have the agreed-upon tools for studying everything I've experienced in the past forty-four years of my life. I've witnessed enough (and have had eyewitnesses to verify many of my experiences) during my lifetime to be fully confident that the paranormal phenomenon I've experienced is real and that modern science has yet to be able to conclusively explain it. I have had two psychologists and three therapists evaluate me, as well as a cranial CT scan, and there is no natural explanation for what I've been experiencing since I was six years old. And these are the reasons why I believe that there are supernatural phenomena that occur in the physical world that neither modern science nor sacred religious texts (such as the Bible or the Quran) or any religious dogma can rationally explain or logically refute. It is an everyday reality for me.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Who said science is 100% correct. Science is investigating hehre the things are not clear, but there are a lot of things where science is on a better footing. Those include cosmogony and evolution.

If you presume God did not create the universe or give life then of course you think science is on a better footing.

Strong? There is not an iota of evidence. Otherwise kindly mention just one here.

 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What is "the language of religion?" Vague blandishments? Poetic gobbledygook? Unevidenced claims? Nebulous, imprecision?
These have never gotten anyone anywhere. Different religions, with different world-views, different narratives and different belief systems proliferated. Only when the precision, reason, and and methodology of science was generally adopted did our understanding of reality take off.

Science is about the how and religion is about the why. Science tells us nothing about the why question. Those answers come from religion, or should I say, from the revelation from the true God.
All science is, is a tool of humans that we can use to find out about the physical world. It has it's limitations but some people see the physical realm as the be all and end all of reality and so those limitations are less visible to them.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yet you easily believe that a god with magic powers magically exists. What magic gives reality gods? What magic makes them capable of creating the universe that you can't believe exists absent an intelligent designer?

It's a logical error (special pleading aka unjustified double standard) to insist that a universe needs an intelligent designer, but a god doesn't. If gods can exist uncreated, then so can anything else. Postulating gods adds nothing but another layer of unexplained complexity without adding any explanatory power. "God did it" explains nothing when there is no visible god, no clear manifestation of any god, and no apparent mechanism for a god to exist or act.

I believe that both the created and the creator exist.
There is just one true God.
The more science finds out, the more evidence there is for a creator/designer.


If you think that this universe has existed forever in some form and there was no need of a designer then you should be able to believe the designer could have existed forever without a designer. Why the double standards here?
An extra layer of complexity means nothing unless you think that the simplest answer is always the right one. But really the existence of the universe forever and with no designer is not really the simplest imo anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the existence of a designer certainly explains the why question for the existence of anything and explains human experience in this area of God.
But for you that is experience which does not even count as evidence because of your faith in empiricism as the only way.

Sure he does, as do I and as does anybody else who is aware of its internal contradictions and the degree to which it has been falsified empirically.

It is a strawman to claim that the Bible has been falsified just because you think your particular interpretation has been falsified.

That's worded improperly. Nothing can be said to be real until it is confirmed as such empirically, and nothing should be believed to exist that does not reveal itself to the senses in some manner, including spirits. There is no reason to call spirits or an alleged spiritual realm they are said to be hidden in real until they manifest themselves to the senses (empirically).

That is the sort of thing we have in the human experience of God and spirits. On the one hand you want that and otoh that is not evidence for you.

I see that you still haven't understood the difference between saying that something doesn't exist and saying that one lacks reason to believe that it does - what I have called unbelief/disbelief conflation. For whatever reason, many faith-based thinkers can't separate these into distinct ideas. They are equivalent and interchangeable to them. Tell one you don't believe in gods, and it is quickly transformed into a claim that gods don't exist, which straw man is then correctly called a faith-based declaration, but not one actually made.

You had no comment the last time I mentioned this to you. Is that because you didn't understand it then or because you had no response and preferred ignoring it? Also, is that because you don't mind doing that or because you are unaware that you do?

I can't remember why I made no comment. It could have been that I agree. It could have been that I was overloaded with you and your gang of atheist/skeptics who attack theists in a swarm when they think they have stepped outside the atheist/sceptic dogma in some way (especially this dogma) It could have been that you were just replying to a comment and did not realise if the person I had been speaking to was making statements that imo showed someone who believed instead of lacked belief. It could have been that I had come to an understanding with that person about what was said.
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
If you presume God did not create the universe or give life then of course you think science is on a better footing.
That's a long, long way from saying it's 100% accurate.

Science is about the how and religion is about the why. Science tells us nothing about the why question.
Why do your think there is an answer to 'the why question'? Why do you think there must be a purpose?

If you think that this universe has existed forever in some form and there was no need of a designer then you should be able to believe the designer could have existed forever without a designer. Why the double standards here?
It really isn't anything to do with time. The universe may or may not be infinite in the past time-like directions but time (according to general relativity) is a part of the universe, not something external to it. If you think you need an 'designer' because the universe had a start, then that's a fundamental misunderstanding.

If you think that the universe needs a designer because of complexity or improbability or whatever, then we run into infinite regress problems. A designer would need to be even more complex and improbable or whatever. That's why a designer basically just makes any perceived problems worse, rather than solving them.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Science is about the how and religion is about the why. Science tells us nothing about the why question. Those answers come from religion, or should I say, from the revelation from the true God.

The "why" question, is a loaded question.
It assumes there even is a "why" to ask about.

All science is, is a tool of humans that we can use to find out about the physical world. It has it's limitations but some people see the physical realm as the be all and end all of reality and so those limitations are less visible to them.
It is limited to those things that can be supported with objective evidence.

Indeed, science can't tell us about things that have no evidence, no verifiability, no testability.
A good question would be what makes you think anything can?

How do you differentiate the non-existent from the undetectable?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If you think that this universe has existed forever in some form and there was no need of a designer then you should be able to believe the designer could have existed forever without a designer. Why the double standards here?
An extra layer of complexity means nothing unless you think that the simplest answer is always the right one. But really the existence of the universe forever and with no designer is not really the simplest imo anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the existence of a designer certainly explains the why question for the existence of anything and explains human experience in this area of God.
But for you that is experience which does not even count as evidence because of your faith in empiricism and the only way.

I think it's kind of funny to see you accuse people who value objective evidence of "double standards" while complaining they dismiss "subjective experience", while you yourself will happily dismiss out of hand ANY "subjective experience" that doesn't fit your a priori subjective beliefs.

Or do you think Scientology is real? What? Don't tell me that you simply dismiss the subjective experience of people like Tom Cruise, John Travolta or any of the other millions of "clear" people...

And that's just one example off course... there's also the "subjective experience" of hindu's, voodoo, tarrot readers, muslims, vikings, ancient romans, ancient greeks, ancient egyptions, mayans, the inca, buddhists, shintoists, alien abductees, bigfoot spotters, etc etc etc.

Who holds a double standard, really?
I don't. I value objective evidence, always. I will happily go where objective evidence takes me.
I will happily drop beliefs and / or take on new beliefs if objective evidence demands it.

Can you say the same? I doubt it.

It is a strawman to claim that the Bible has been falsified just because you think your particular interpretation has been falsified.

The fact that there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of "interpretations" is imo the first hint of it being rather worthless.

It matters not where you go, the "interpretation" of E = mc² will always be the same. Gravity works the same for a Hindu and a Muslim.
Scientific facts, unlike religious beliefs / interpretations, aren't dependent on your cultural background or geographic location.

That is the sort of thing we have in the human experience of God and spirits. On the one hand you want that and otoh that is not evidence for you.

Like Tom Cruise being an Operating Thetan is evidence of Scientology, right?
RIGHT?

atheist/sceptic dogma

There's no such thing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe that both the created and the creator exist.
I assume that by "the created," you mean nature. It definitively exists, however, it is logically possible that it is all that exists. Or, as you suggest, it may have been created by some process, such as emanating from a multiverse in which it began to expand billions of years ago. You choose to believe that its source was a sentient, supernatural agent, or an awakened or wakeful multiverse so-to-speak.
The more science finds out, the more evidence there is for a creator/designer.
If you mean a god, I disagree. There is nothing that we are aware that exists that requires intelligent oversight to explain, and much that doesn't, including the assembling of the universe from an initial hot, dense state and its day-to-day operation. Science has made gods less necessary as explanatory devices, and is one of the explanations for the waning of Christianity in the West, where more people are educated about it.
If you think that this universe has existed forever in some form
I think that that is one of the logical possibilities. The universe has either always existed or came into existence, and if it came into existence, it either did so either uncaused or caused by some prior existence, which might or might not be sentient, and which itself might have always existed or come into existence uncaused. I think that this list is exhaustive, meaning that if reason can be trusted, one of these must be the case. But we have no means of ruling any in or out at this time. The best we can do is order them according to Occam' parsimony principle. Adding a prior source adds complexity (an unseen reality) without extra explanatory power and requiring that prior source be conscious compounds the problem.
you should be able to believe the designer could have existed forever without a designer.
Yes, that's included in my list, under uncreated, conscious, prior source for our universe.
An extra layer of complexity means nothing unless you think that the simplest answer is always the right one.
The simplest narrative that accounts for all relevant observation is preferred. Adding more increases complexity without adding any explanatory or predictive power. What prevents you from adding more to your narrative, like our universe's conscious creator - what you call "God" - being the product of a multiverse that generates untold numbers of gods running their own universes? And let's throw in a triumvirate of gods to create the multiverse that created your god who created our universe? As you can see, we can end endless complexity to this narrative, but none of it accounts for observed reality better than narratives that omit all of that.

Somebody with a more complicated religious belief and narrative than yours can make all of the same arguments you make in support of his belief. He just believes it, and you can't prove he's wrong. Furthermore, the more science reveals, the more evidence there is for a triumvirate of gods to create the multiverse that created the god that created our universe. If you can believe in just this final god, you should be able to believe in all the rest.
your faith in empiricism and the only way.
Empiricism is the only path to knowledge.
It is a strawman to claim that the Bible has been falsified just because you think your particular interpretation has been falsified.
Parts of the Bible have been falsified. That's not controversial outside of fundamentalist religious circles. Apologists are working to try to reconcile scripture with science, but they need to reinterpret the language of scripture and call it allegory, for example, claiming that it never meant what it says wherever what it says has been falsified. The universe wasn't formed in six days, so now, a day isn't a day.

Incidentally, a myth is not an allegory or metaphor. The latter are specific literary forms which myth doesn't meet. They include substituting symbols for known people, objects, and events. Myths don't. They attempt to explain the unknown with free speculation.
you and your gang of atheist/skeptics who attack theists in a swarm
This is your religion speaking. Nobody is attacking you, and there is no gang and no swarming, which is dehumanizing language, like calling liberals vermin (it's a recent American thing and a not-so-recent German thing). You have been taught to see dissent as malevolent.
Science is about the how and religion is about the why. Science tells us nothing about the why question. Those answers come from religion, or should I say, from the revelation from the true God.
Religion has no answers, just guesses, like myths.
All science is, is a tool of humans that we can use to find out about the physical world. It has it's limitations but some people see the physical realm as the be all and end all of reality and so those limitations are less visible to them.
And some people imagine that there are realms and agents that exist that don't and are vested in those reveries. Naturally, science can't help them, which they describe as a limitation of science rather than a limitation of undisciplined thinking.
 
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