Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I am equally in love with Bible and Kitab-i-Aqdas also. You might have noticed.So who is so obsessed with Islam, Allah, and Quran etc??? Its irrelevant, though you are in love with it.
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I am equally in love with Bible and Kitab-i-Aqdas also. You might have noticed.So who is so obsessed with Islam, Allah, and Quran etc??? Its irrelevant, though you are in love with it.
I am equally in love with Bible and Kitab-i-Aqdas also. You might have noticed.
Okay, so let's look at that passage. In my KJV it reads, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." To me, that's talking about the future, and saying that no one has been received into Heaven except for Jesus. You probably believe that as soon as a person died, he goes to Heaven, but I don't. I believe the spirit resides in a peaceful realm of joy and rest until the time for the judgment, and that it is only after we receive our resurrected bodies that we go to Heaven.I have similar views except for the pre existence of all of us.
I believe Jesus pre existed and that God knew us before we existed because God is God and knows the future and can do that sort of thing. It doesn't say that we knew God then.
I can't help but think John 3:13 which seems to be saying that only Jesus came from heaven.
Do you believe our spirits are eternal? Did they pre-exist our physical bodies?We are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. We are not installed in our physical bodies until after birth.
Okay, so let's look at that passage. In my KJV it reads, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." To me, that's talking about the future, and saying that no one has been received into Heaven except for Jesus. You probably believe that as soon as a person died, he goes to Heaven, but I don't. I believe the spirit resides in a peaceful realm of joy and rest until the time for the judgment, and that it is only after we receive our resurrected bodies that we go to Heaven.
I can also think of a couple of passages that kind of hint at the pre-mortal existence of man, but unless you're interested, I'm not going to bother posting them. I'm really not a person who finds arguing doctrine enjoyable.
One last comment... John 3:13 talks about no one "ascending" into heaven, not "descending" from heaven.John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.
More modern translations usually have better scriptures to translate from and so differ from the KJV, which has errors.
To me Jesus was talking about things that have happened. Even before Jesus became a man He had ascended to heaven, initially after creating earth.
To me John 3:13 says that Jesus is the only one who has descended from heaven.
I believe in a place of the dead also for the souls of the dead but it seems that after Jesus the souls of those who died in Christ go to be with the Lord. Paul seems to teach (Phil 1:22-24) that and Revelation speaks of the souls of the martyrs under the altar. (Rev 6:9-17)
Also Jesus brings with Him those who have fallen asleep in Christ (1Thess 4:14) and then they are resurrected with glorified bodies.
Thanks for the little talk. I'm a doctrinal arguing sort of person so I guess it is good to stop here.
Do you believe our spirits are eternal? Did they pre-exist our physical bodies?
Do you believe our spirits are eternal? Did they pre-exist our physical bodies?
That was a very long answer to two yes or no questions. I'm assuming that your "yes" was an answer to both of my questions.Yes, we are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. That's what I see. It's very clear!!
One last comment... John 3:13 talks about no one "ascending" into heaven, not "descending" from heaven.
I see John 9:1-3 as being very relevant to this topic. Most people won't, because they will look right at the clue and miss it.
John 9:1-3 "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
Almost everyone who reads this will zero in on Jesus' answer, and fail to pick up on the significance of (1) the disciples' question and (2) what Jesus did not say in response. Those who are willing to look deeper will learn something new.
Looking at my first point: We know that the man in question was born blind. We know Jesus' disciples assumed that his blindness was a punishment for someone's sin. We know that they considered the possibility that his parents might have sinned and had been punished by having given birth to a blind child.
But, the disciples thought it might have been the blind man himself who had sinned. If he'd been blind since birth, though, when could he have sinned if not prior to his birth?
Now, examining Jesus' answer and specifically what He did not say... He answered by telling His disciples that the man's blindness was not a result of sin -- either the man's or his parents' -- but that he had been born blind so that the works of God could be manifest. He did not correct His disciples and say, "Well, I can see how you might come to the conclusion that the man was born blind because of a sin his parents had committed, but what on earth could you possibly be thinking in assuming that the man's blindness was a result of his own sin? When do you think he could conceivably have sinned if he was born blind? He didn't even exist before his birth!"
A belief in the pre-mortal life of human beings was widely believed at this time. In this example, it was just part of what Jesus' disciples had always believed. Now Jesus could have easily put the kabash on that notion if it were, in fact, a false doctrine. He didn't correct their reasoning or assumptions that the man could have sinned prior to being born, and that is truly significant, in my opinion.
Another passage that I think is worth noting is Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
You can't "return" to someplace you've never been before. Your body will return to the earth and your spirit will return to God. If your spirit had never been with God before, it could go to be with God but it could not "return" to Him. Heaven is where your spirit originated. If God is in heaven, then we were once there, too.
@firedragon , did you reply to my question? I asked you - "Are you Allah (since you are a Muslim)?" I will like to get the answer. Yes or No.
Ask me - "Are you Brahman?" And I will unhesitatingly answer - "Yes, I am 100% Brahman and none else."
Do you see the difference now?
No, I am not God. I did not create the universe, I did not create humankind, I do not want to be worshiped. I do not create rules of life. I do not judge people after death. I do not send them to heaven or hell. I do not resurrect people after death. I cannot rent the moon. I cannot move the mountains. I did not send prophets / sons/ messengers / manifestations / mahdis to the world. I do not provide sustenance to animals and humans. I cannot cause drought or flood. I cannot cause Tsunami or earthquakes. Tell me, in what way I am God?
I am the stuff of the universe, I am Brahman.
I see John 9:1-3 as being very relevant to this topic. Most people won't, because they will look right at the clue and miss it.
John 9:1-3 "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
Almost everyone who reads this will zero in on Jesus' answer, and fail to pick up on the significance of (1) the disciples' question and (2) what Jesus did not say in response. Those who are willing to look deeper will learn something new.
Looking at my first point: We know that the man in question was born blind. We know Jesus' disciples assumed that his blindness was a punishment for someone's sin. We know that they considered the possibility that his parents might have sinned and had been punished by having given birth to a blind child.
But, the disciples thought it might have been the blind man himself who had sinned. If he'd been blind since birth, though, when could he have sinned if not prior to his birth?
Now, examining Jesus' answer and specifically what He did not say... He answered by telling His disciples that the man's blindness was not a result of sin -- either the man's or his parents' -- but that he had been born blind so that the works of God could be manifest. He did not correct His disciples and say, "Well, I can see how you might come to the conclusion that the man was born blind because of a sin his parents had committed, but what on earth could you possibly be thinking in assuming that the man's blindness was a result of his own sin? When do you think he could conceivably have sinned if he was born blind? He didn't even exist before his birth!"
A belief in the pre-mortal life of human beings was widely believed at this time. In this example, it was just part of what Jesus' disciples had always believed. Now Jesus could have easily put the kabash on that notion if it were, in fact, a false doctrine. He didn't correct their reasoning or assumptions that the man could have sinned prior to being born, and that is truly significant, in my opinion.
Another passage that I think is worth noting is Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
You can't "return" to someplace you've never been before. Your body will return to the earth and your spirit will return to God. If your spirit had never been with God before, it could go to be with God but it could not "return" to Him. Heaven is where your spirit originated. If God is in heaven, then we were once there, too.
But abortion still removes all that potential.This sounds like it's directed at people that believe in things like souls, but I'll offer my perspective just so it exists in the discussion.
I don't think fetuses have the properties necessary to be "us" in the first place, though they do have the potentiality to be an "us." I think personhood is something that develops with emergent properties like sense of self, sapience, sentience, etc.
I am a brahmin and Brahman. Even a Shudra is Brahman and none other. That is why Sankara bowed to the 'candala', lowest in social hierarchy, a person banished from the society for a most heinous crime such as killing a teacher or a parent, or rape (if you know the story).I believe you are not Brahmin when it means God but you are at lest partially Brahmin (Knowing about God) in knowing about God.
I am an atheist, and atheist do not believe in existence of any God or Goddess.I believe that is false. God is not the stuff of the Universe.