Liberal response to Jeremiah 1:5

[Kuzcotopia]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Do you mean "liberal" as a very wide sweeping interpretation?

Okay, the passage refers to megalomania. The author is convinced he's special, and uses this line to pick up girls at the local goat's milk bar.

After all, if you said god didn't know you until you were 18, and even then, all he said was you might become a barber. . . then girls wouldn't be very impressed.

But if you say god knows you, has known you all your life, and plans to speak through you as a prophet. . . Well, that's how you get women.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

It would also mean that god has planned out everything for us, and knows ahead of time if a fetus will be born or if for one of many different reasons it won't. It doesn't seem to imply that life doesn't begin in the womb, and even then only for those gametes that god has already decided will fully develop as a fetus and be born.

Yeah, this god actually knows which fetuses will grow up to be abortion doctors.

 

[metis]

It's a verse that says life begins in the womb

It actually doesn't say that with any certainty since it may be referring to God's ability to predict future events.

 

[Brickjectivity]

@SinSaber Its very important to respect the unborn's potential, and Liberal Christians do. That said when I was a child attending my charismatic church there were prophesies and preachings that said abortion was part of a spirit of death. It was said that it was a slippery slope to us killing off our old people like the native Americans used to do and other kinds of death. It was a looming shadow that was coming to destroy our country and undermine everything good. This was not so much an argument as a scarecrow, practically something a voodoo priest would say. It had crap to do with the Bible.

Biblically speaking if you are truly literal about the Bible you should accept that in the Bible life enters through the breath, however the Bible is not a Science text. According to the Bible the unborn child is not yet alive, however it still has value. This is a very reasonable approach to a subject that is actually beyond discussion. In the Bible the midwives and parents determine if a child should live when he or she is born. It doesn't go into detail about how to make that choice. The child is a gift and is a blessing.

Biblically speaking we should always have as many children as possible, but Christians are not Biblical people. Christians are quasi-Biblical. I can demonstrate that many ways, beginning with the gospel of Matthew. Probably there are over 1000 ways to demonstrate it. In fact its a book idea.

 

[Jainarayan]

Do you think this hints that we existed in spirit form before our conception? That would be interesting.

Sauce for the goose, per my beliefs:

• "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."
• "The soul is unborn, eternal, never takes birth, and never dies. The soul is not destroyed when the body is destroyed.”
• "Just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul and the embodied soul continuously passes through these cycles, similarly the embodied soul passes into another body at death. The wise man does not get deluded and bewildered with such a change."
• "Know that to be imperishable and indestructible, by which all this is pervaded; for none can bring about the destruction of this indestructible substance, the imperishable soul."
• "They are both ignorant, he who knows the soul to be capable of killing and he who takes it as killed; for verily the soul neither kills, nor is killed."
• "The soul is never born nor dies at any time. Soul has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. Soul is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. Soul is not slain when the body is slain."
• "I am the Self residing in the heart of every being. I am their beginning, their life-span, and their end."

To me this makes infinitely more sense than souls popping into and out of existence with each body that is born.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." This means that God knows every soul before it connects with a sentient being. He knows the unique personality traits that it has but, like an infant, the souls need experience to develop into Sentient Universal Beings.

"Before you were born (on the earth) I set you apart." This means that the soul is a fragment of God. I set you apart from Myself.

"I annointed you as a prophet to the nations." This means that certain humans, in this case Jeremiah, have information to convey to others about the true nature of God and the universe.

I think that this thread nicely illustrates that the words of much scripture don't actually say anything specific. They are poetry, which is language that is vague, and into which each reader projects a bit of himself in deciding what the words mean - a sort of verbal Rorschach test. Naturally, you'll get a large assortment of different interpretations.

Song lyrics often fall into this category:

They're selling postcards of the hanging, they're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors, the circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner, they've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker, the other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless, they need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight, from Desolation Row​

What does that mean? It creates a mood for me - something ominous, something dysfunctional - but I can't say more than that. You might have a different read, and neither of us would be right or wrong. So what does it mean? Nothing specific at all.

Likewise with much scripture. It simply doesn't mean anything.

For example, what does this mean?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

I say that it means whatever you want it to mean.

Or this:

God is love.​

I think we can all agree that there can be multiple answers, as opposed to "God is loving," which is much less open to interpretation.

Contrast this with prose intended to inform or instruct, which is meant to be understood clearly. There's not much doubt about what sentences like these mean:

Pull the car over so that I can get out.
I will call you tomorrow at noon.
She asked me to loosen the lid on the jar for her.
Add a teaspoon of salt.
I like hot dogs better than hamburgers
​

Some scripture is closer to this second category:

Then the priest shall order that one of the birds be killed over fresh water in a clay pot. He is then to take the live bird and dip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water.
​

 

[idav]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

He is saying God knows you even before the womb, how far back, even before conception? Are you asking why liberals might avoid Calvinism? Because some believe we have choice in the matter in a non-deterministic universe. Calvinism would suggest there is no choice from the beginning, now all that's really up to god though.

 

[columbus]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

It's a verse that says life begins in the womb

No it doesn't. It doesn't say specifically say anything about what's in the womb. And since the authors equated breath with life, there's no reason to think that they meant anything like that.

You are doing something pretty common, adding something to Scripture that It doesn't contain because you want to believe it.

We modern people know enough basic science and have more sophisticated ethics than the primitive people of the Old Testament times.
But a simple reading of the author's intent would be more like "I appointed this person prophet, that one slave, that one dies in childhood of snakebite, and that one of abortion at 3 weeks "
Nothing about fetuses being alive, much less protected by the prohibition against murder.
Tom

 

[Super Universe]

I think that this thread nicely illustrates that the words of much scripture don't actually say anything specific. They are poetry, which is language that is vague, and into which each reader projects a bit of himself in deciding what the words mean - a sort of verbal Rorschach test. Naturally, you'll get a large assortment of different interpretations.

Song lyrics often fall into this category:

They're selling postcards of the hanging, they're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors, the circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner, they've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker, the other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless, they need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight, from Desolation Row​

What does that mean? It creates a mood for me - something ominous, something dysfunctional - but I can't say more than that. You might have a different read, and neither of us would be right or wrong. So what does it mean? Nothing specific at all.

Likewise with much scripture. It simply doesn't mean anything.

For example, what does this mean?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

I say that it means whatever you want it to mean.

Or this:

God is love.​

I think we can all agree that there can be multiple answers, as opposed to "God is loving," which is much less open to interpretation.

Contrast this with prose intended to inform or instruct, which is meant to be understood clearly. There's not much doubt about what sentences like these mean:

Pull the car over so that I can get out.
I will call you tomorrow at noon.
She asked me to loosen the lid on the jar for her.
Add a teaspoon of salt.
I like hot dogs better than hamburgers
​

Some scripture is closer to this second category:

Then the priest shall order that one of the birds be killed over fresh water in a clay pot. He is then to take the live bird and dip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water.
​

The words of any scripture don't say anything specific? Incorrect. They give details but too often primitive humans did not understand the large universal ideas that were being conveyed because humans are an extremely selfish species.

"In the beginning was the word", this is an attempt to describe the initial moment that God began to form Himself, the word is a disturbance in the void, think of a medical flat line that suddenly jumps. The Tibetan monks recreate this initial First Cause when they chant.

"The word was with God and the word was God", the word and God are the same, think of the word as God as a fetus and then He became more, then He became God.

It doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean. It doesn't mean "the apples are 10% off today".

"God is love" means that in heaven the part of God that is there is entirely love, there is no other emotion.

"Then the priest shall order that one of the birds be killed over fresh water in a clay pot. He is then to take the live bird and dip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water." This is from a temple policy book. The ancient preists wrote down their traditions. Over thousands of years those old temple traditions were thought to be God's wishes when they were simply a tradition invented by a temple priest. Everything in the bible is not God's word, it's a primitive human idea of what they think God wanted.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

"In the beginning was the word", this is an attempt to describe the initial moment that God began to form Himself, the word is a disturbance in the void, think of a medical flat line that suddenly jumps. The Tibetan monks recreate this initial First Cause when they chant.

"The word was with God and the word was God", the word and God are the same, think of the word as God as a fetus and then He became more, then He became God.

You're being creative. Most Christians would disagree with you about that. Most Christians don't acknowledge an "initial moment that God began to form Himself." I think that you're making my point here with your free lance interpretation of what is definitely a vague passage with no clear meaning.

"God is love" means that in heaven the part of God that is there is entirely love, there is no other emotion.

I say that it means nothing specific. If I wanted to, I could choose some specific meaning different from yours and say that that is what the words mean.

I Googled what does god is love mean? and looked at the first three hits. None gave the answer you did.

There is only one thing that is love, and that is love itself. If God is love, then God is an emotion or feeling, not an agent capable of thinking or acting, and I would have no need for both words.

Everything in the bible is not God's word

What if I told you that not everything in a particular last will and testament was the choice of the deceased - that others had added their ideas to those of the deceased? Would being unable to distinguish which was which invalidate the document?

So how do you decide which words in the Bible are from God and which were thrown in by people speaking on His behalf? Whereas I might be willing to obey the commandments of the former, I'm certainly not interested in the words of the latter.

 

[columbus]

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" That means his soul was ready to enter the body formed inside the womb. If it has a soul its alove

Someone like @RabbiO could probably shed more light here, but I don't think that the authors of Jeremiah distinguished much between breath, life, and soul.

To me, the fundamental premises of my ProLife beliefs are pretty simple. Individual humans (AKA people) start when two haploid cells merge to form a new human. That's settled science. Deliberately choosing death for them is homicide, sometimes justifiable but all too often not.
And here's the bottom line. People feeling entitled to choose oppression and death for other people is the worst tendency we have. It results in all kinds of suffering and destruction, much more than just the direct and obvious ones. So I oppose elective abortion as a concept, while also realizing that some abortions are direly necessary and the ProLife thing to do. Which makes the conversations messy and complex.
Tom

 

[Enoch07]

What is the first thing you do when you exit the womb? Your birthday, the first day alive outside the womb? Inhale the first breath.

What is the last thing everyone does as they die? Exhale the last breath.

Many cultures have thought that the first breath out of the womb is the soul going into that body, and the exhale of death being the soul leaving.

I understand the verse. I agree God made our sous long ago and He did indeed know us before we were born. I am conflicted on when that soul is attached to the body. My personal opinion is with the first and last breath.

 

[Super Universe]

You're being creative. Most Christians would disagree with you about that. Most Christians don't acknowledge an "initial moment that God began to form Himself." I think that you're making my point here with your free lance interpretation of what is definitely a vague passage with no clear meaning.



I say that it means nothing specific. If I wanted to, I could choose some specific meaning different from yours and say that that is what the words mean.

I Googled what does god is love mean? and looked at the first three hits. None gave the answer you did.

There is only one thing that is love, and that is love itself. If God is love, then God is an emotion or feeling, not an agent capable of thinking or acting, and I would have no need for both words.



What if I told you that not everything in a particular last will and testament was the choice of the deceased - that others had added their ideas to those of the deceased? Would being unable to distinguish which was which invalidate the document?

So how do you decide which words in the Bible are from God and which were thrown in by people speaking on His behalf? Whereas I might be willing to obey the commandments of the former, I'm certainly not interested in the words of the latter.

I'm not being creative. The bible is "creative".

Most Christians would disagree with me about what the "word" is in Genesis? And what are they to me? I am about my Father's business, they are about theirs.

Most Christians don't acknowledge an initial moment that God began to form Himself? The truth is the truth regardless of primitive humans inability to comprehend it.

You think I'm making your point? I'm not. The passage does not mean that all dogs go to heaven. It does not mean that you can park for free on Sundays nor does it mean many, many other things. It's not whatever you want it to be.

You say that "God is love" is not specific? The words used have meaning, just because you don't understand doesn't mean it can mean whatever you want it to. Your inability to understand is a reflection on you, not on anyone else.

You Googled "God is love" and none gave the answer that I did? Did you think that Google has all the answers?

There is only one thing that is love and that is love itself? Aaaah, wow, you must have written the movie Lalaland. And where does this love come from? You should Google it.

If God is love then God is an emotion and not capable of thinking or acting? Your human definition of love is extremely primitive and unevolved.

What if you told me that not everything in a will was the choice of the deceased and that others added their ideas to it? Ah, you have one piece of the puzzle. But do you have any more?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

"God knew me millions of years ago, therefore I am actually millions of years old."

Does that sound about right to you?

He knows all that is going to happen.

I dunno, seems shocked multiple times throughout the bible, Jesus included.

"before I formed you I knew you" implies God had a clear concept of the kind of person He wants to make before forming that person in the womb... just as an artist has a clear concept of the figure he wants to make before starting to work on the marble block. No preexisting soul is meant. Neither is there any hint that a person fully exists at conception. The idea of "forming" shows that the entire span of the womb is needed to create the person.

Yeah. I don't call the picture on the engineer's table a car until it drives off the lot.

Fun fact: Verses are only meaningful to those who actually believe that the bible is the "word of god."

And even if it actually WERE, it's only meaningful to those who take verses out of context and ignore all those verses where everyone and everything not Plot Important is treated like crap.

It was said that it was a slippery slope to us killing off our old people like the native Americans used to do and other kinds of death.

Native Americans? Source?

 

[Brickjectivity]

"God knew me millions of years ago, therefore I am actually millions of years old."

Does that sound about right to you?


I dunno, seems shocked multiple times throughout the bible, Jesus included.


Yeah. I don't call the picture on the engineer's table a car until it drives off the lot.


And even if it actually WERE, it's only meaningful to those who take verses out of context and ignore all those verses where everyone and everything not Plot Important is treated like crap.


Native Americans? Source?

Sorry. Inuit. Plus there are other cultures. Its called Senicide. Senicide - Wikipedia

 

[McBell]

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" That means his soul was ready to enter the body formed inside the womb. If it has a soul its alove

The verse says absolutely nothing about a soul.

 

[columbus]

It's a verse that says life begins in the womb

Some people reinterpret OT verses concerning gay male sex.
I am quite sure that the verses were the results of a homophobic, male dominated, society. Reinterpreting them to mean gay marriage is ok doesn't strike me as particularly honest or true to the intentions of the authors.
But if anybody can reinterpret the OT to mean whatever they want, then what's the problem with Christians celebrating gay weddings?
Tom

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am quite sure that the verses were the results of a homophobic, male dominated, society.

A homophobic, male dominated society of men who cut off their own foreskins? No, sorry try again. Its true that Christian society is currently homophobic, and its true that there are many misunderstandings about gay people among Christians. Its also true that gay sex is forbidden in the Bible for Jews, and its true that early Christians are both Jews and equally obsessed with reproduction. Its about rabbit-like reproduction not homophobia I'm pretty sure. We're talking about a society that gets regularly invaded and attacked, and they are all about keeping their numbers up.

Reinterpreting them to mean gay marriage is ok doesn't strike me as particularly honest or true to the intentions of the authors.

I think...we have to be reasonable here. The main thing that the Bible really hates is the practice of pederasty, however it does strictly regulate the sexual activities of males who are Jewish or Christian.

There is no call in the Bible, however, to make homosexuality or gay marriage illegal for non Christians. That is strictly a political impulse on the part of some people --- and also comes from the un-Biblical belief (that is the current trend) that everyone in the world must convert. That does, unfortunately, result in homophobia, however it is not dishonest to say that there is no reason gays cannot be allowed to get married under secular law. Its not against the Bible, unless you are Christian or Jewish. Then again, if you are Christian then you should be cracking out babies as fast as possible and if not then its pointing out a splinter when you've got a spike.

But if anybody can reinterpret the OT to mean whatever they want, then what's the problem with Christians celebrating gay weddings?

They cannot. There is a method to it, and what contributes to issues like widespread homophobia is that people do not use it. How can people read the Christian Bible backwards and expect to get reasonable results.

 

[Brickjectivity]

@columbus , it occurs to me that there is a situation where the Bible is homophobic. That's when a homosexual is born to Jewish or Christian parents and those parents do not understand what is going on with their child, when the culture doesn't understand and when people do not understand in general. I do not know what to tell you, but I may get back to you on that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm going to say, Tom, that I do understand that homosexual men get treated like hell right now. I think this is not the future of Christianity or of Judaism, so for me that is not so much of an issue. I think for the case of Judaism I have found this post relevant. I think that for homosexual Christians this is a very difficult time but also an opportune time for them to shine. I presume that we and society make out out of the morass of fear and this primitive time of war and judgmental Christian versus Christian time. I insist that the future is bright and that the love of Christ prevails over ignorance.