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LHP Only: Sacred Geometry

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
All the Octave theories span multiple octaves in order for them to be realized. Nothing is ever mentioned concerning a single C to C1 Octave.

Alright, I am confused here and wish to understand. My mind does not handle repetitive contradiction well, so let us recap because something went wrong somewhere. You said that the Fib sequence is an integral part of nature, to which I said that is greatly exaggerated and gave you some links to help see that. While it is a part of nature, it is greatly over exaggerated. I claimed that the fib sequence has no tie to sacred geo, but then retracted it after learning that it can, in fact, come from the patterns. Then, I am the one who said that the Fib sequence is a part of music, which you facepalmed me for, called me a baby, a retard, mentally challenged, high, and alcoholic, etc. Yet, now you are saying that it is an integral part of music, yet have shown nothing being tied to it and directly argued against that perspective.

As for C1 - C2, I have heard this many many times and it works with the Fib sequence, but any group of things that are a Fib number can be tied to the Fib sequence. It really implies little, but it is there. Personally, I do not care either way here. There are many kinds of patterns in everything, especially music, which is more to the point.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I want to drop this and start a new chapter here. I have serious issues with someone who calls me a drug addicted, mentally challenged, lesser child. The Fibonacci sequence is one of many, many patterns that exist in reality, including in music. There are many patters, I would guess we have not even discovered many of them. The Fibonacci / golden ratio in nature is exaggerated, that is a fact, but it does exist there. It can also come from sacred geometrical patterns, which is pretty cool. But that is just one unbelievably small aspect of the bigger picture. If anything, we should discuss that the golden ratio comes from the dodecahedron which was once considered (spirit), and thus the pentagram has a "divine" aspect to it. That is about it.
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
The Fibonacci sequence can be heard in a lot of music, take for instance Bach's Prelude I in C ("Well-Tempered Clavier"):

[youtube]2pbEarwdusc[/youtube]
Fibonacci sequence in music - YouTube

My personal interest lies in incorporating or infusing I. the phi ratio, II. the Fibonacci sequence, and III. the Law of the Trapezoid in my own music. In my studies I have found that I have already been doing this in my compositions, whether it is just two or all three methods. They may not be pure expressions of these methods, but they are there in my neo-classical, new age, and black metal works. As a musician and composer my primary focus is to compose something that is not just pleasing to the ear of the listener, but also inspires them as well. To conjure emotion and thought, to make the hairs on one's arms stand up, that to me is Magical creation using sound and frequency. The study of methods is one thing, but to actually incorporate that knowledge in creative expression (composition) is the perfect Remanifestation.

Xeper and Remanifest.
/Adramelek\
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
***Staff Advisory***

This thread has been moved to the Same-Faith Debates forum.

Also, several posts in this thread have been edited/deleted. Please refrain from making personal comments about other members, and keep Rule 1 in mind while posting:

1. Personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Regards the highlighted section -

Do you know what the overtone series is ?

from - Overtone

"Overtones or harmonics are the natural parts of any pitch heard when it is sounded. That is to say, that each pitch that we hear contains addition pitches within it that are termed overtones or harmonics. The relative strength or weakness of these overtones determines the tone color or timbre of the pitch. This is why no two instruments sound alike.When a pitch is played, the main note heard is the fundamental (the note itself), but there is also present a series of other pitches above it called overtones or harmonics. The first overtone is an octave above the fundamental, the second is an octave and a fifth above the fundamental, the third is two octaves, the fourth is two octaves and a third, and so on, with each following overtone closer to the last than the last was to the tone before it.
The series of overtones (harmonic series) for the fundamental pitch C would consist of C-C3-G3-C4-E4 G4-B-Flat4*-C5-D5 E5-F-Sharp5*-G5-A5*-B Flat5*-B5-C6."


images


Overtone.jpg






Here are some snippets of musicology you may find interesting. I'm leaving out any use of the term 'spiritual', because it's one of those effectively meaningless words... though I may return to Gurdjieff's idea "The Law of Octaves" which he expressed half a century before Mandelbrot sets and fractals become known.


There are two aspects to the overtone series that I would like to draw to your attention, in relation to your statement (highlighted) about music.

The first is the historical development of music. As it happens, the notes in the overtone series are a sort of schema of the evolution of music over the last few thousand years.

Here is a quick cut and paste to save me from too much work -

"The overtone series can actually be used to trace the progression of harmonic development through Western music. As George Frederick McKay points out in The Technique of Modern Harmony, different eras throughout musical history became more accepting of higher reaching chord tones in conjunction with the overtone series.
Octaves and 5ths are primal intervals, natural to ancient music. The use of the third became prominent in the Renaissance and with composers such as Palestrina in the 1500s. Bach and his contemporaries began to exploit the 7th in the 16th and 17th centuries. The 9th didn’t become an important chord tone until the time of Wagner in the mid 19th Century, and the extended tones of #11 and 13th weren’t commonly accepted until the music of early 20th century composers like Debussy and Stravinsky."
-Quick Tip: The Overtone Series


"But it is man made, your favorite bands are not channeling some fundamental aspect of reality, not making it come to life"

As you can see, the historical development of music in fact does " channel some fundamental aspect of reality, not making it come to life".

And there was no "central music committee" driving this. This was done spontaneously over many generations and cultures.

The second aspect of the overtone series I would like to tell you about is the Indian melakarta raga system.


Without going into a load of arcane musical maths, there is a musical 'problem' called the Pythagorean comma. I am not going to attempt to define that here, the post would become a Wikipedia entry. Suffice to say that to maintain the ratios of the different musical intervals over multiple octaves is an impossibility. Our (western) assignment of frequencies to the 12 notes of the octave is a best-fit compromise, the equal-tempered scale.

Here's some further information -
Equal Temperament -- from Eric Weisstein's Treasure Trove of Music

The Indians are a very clever bunch, and arrived at their own way of dealing with this. The Indian system uses srutis (microtones). The octave is divided into 22 notes rather than 12. They still use 7 note scales, but most of the notes have 2 or 3 variations, one of which is chosen for a given scale.

The raga system has 72 ragas. A raga is a combination of a specific scale selected from the 22 srutis (sometimes 2 scales, one for ascending notes and another for descending notes), plus a specific tala (time signature - though some of them are very strange and complicated to western musicians, except maybe some demented metal-heads) and a set of characteristic musical motifs (riffs) which serve as the prototypes for improvisation. Each raga is also associated with a specific emotion, time of year and time of day, but that is not relevant to this post ( in any way that I could 'prove').

Here is the important point about raga - the 22 srutis are all integer relationships to the tonic (root note of the scale). Thus they all have a direct relationship to frequencies of the overtone series of the tonic.

So each raga exploits the overtone series of the tonic which is always maintained as a drone (pedal note).Unlike western music, where choices have been made which disallow this level of consonance, each note of the scale resonates with one of the natural harmonics of the drone.

So there you have two examples of how the intrinsic nature, the physics, of sound underlies the historical development of music throughout human history, and is the underlying principle of one of the most sophisticated musical forms to have ever existed.

"not channeling some fundamental aspect of reality" ?

Yes it does. Musical forms have grown around the natural phenomenon of the overtone series. Not arbitrary.

Oh boy. Notice the harmonics in the Cosmic microwave background radiation?
733px-PowerSpectrumExt.svg.png


Using the correction for the red shift calculated from Plank's law, you get 160.2 GHz at the peak. (Using Wien's law you get 283 GHz, which I haven't done any calculations for.)
I used the formula from here:

Note in Hz = (440*2^(Note You Want/12)) {440=A above middle C=0, A#=1, B=2, etc.}

and arrived at 2.3698, which is between a B and a C (B-sharp--who writes this stuff? :facepalm:)

I did not correct for the Pythagorean comma with even temperament, and my math prolly needs to be double checked since I solved it longhand, and I haven't used those neurons for quite a long time. :facepalm:

Anyway, I just stumbled acrossed a really interesting video here: [youtube]5BviesAQQwQ[/youtube]
Anisotropies in Cosmic Microwave Background

It mentions that you only get the harmonic overtones when the string is "tied down," but the universe isn't supposedly tied down. It would mean another, early "dark force" in operation every early in the universe.

I noticed Iti has been studying up on The Higgs boson and the Higgs field. Any info/inspiration/enlightenment you can offer about the gravity waves mentioned at minute 14 to 16 would be appreciated.

{My poor brain hurts. Please dissect this info in the way only the LHP can. Thanks!}
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Wow. The Big Gong.

I wish I was educated sufficiently in maths and physics to have a sensible comment.

If I get the basics, the video is suggesting that there is an overtone series in the frequencies of background radiation. This implies that something ( dark matter ? ) constrains the expansion of the universe, and further that this force of constraint is analagous to a string (as in guitar) being 'tied down'.

That is psychedelic :rainbow1:

We wouldn't be able to make music if we weren't a little tense. LOL.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Wow. The Big Gong.

I wish I was educated sufficiently in maths and physics to have a sensible comment.

If I get the basics, you are suggesting that there is an overtone series in the frequencies of background radiation.

That is psychedelic :rainbow1:
Yep. That is exactly what I'm trying to convey.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Seriously ? The idea of dark matter, sure. But do you think it is common knowledge that background microwave radiation has frequency peaks in an overtone series ?

Haha, the people I talk to are aware of it.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Hang on ...'Same Faith Debates'

Where am I ?

What faith is this ?

Shhh....Do you think I'm gonna get busted for metaphorical indecent exposure for metaphorically jiggling out of an ill-fitting metaphorical corset? :eek: {Danged harmonic overtones!}
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
But what faith is this thread ?

The mod message didn't say.

The title doesn't say. Or is there a Sacred Geometry faith ?

I'm Augmented Fourth Way. Is that OK ?

We are in a purple zone, and the man could freeze our frubals.
 
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