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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

ashkat1`

Member
Isn't it a matter of whose scholarship you accept? You are entitled to hold whatever view you like.....that is why we all have free will. Our decisions make us who we are, and who we are makes us either acceptable as citizens of God's kingdom or it doesn't. Since we all receive the same judgment, we have to wait and see if we are accepted or rejected by Jesus. (Matt 7:21-23) His judgment is the only one that matters......right?



Perhaps it is what I am rejecting that should be clarified.

The core doctrines of Christendom (for almost all denominations) were formulated by an apostate church. Do you believe that the apostasy took place as Jesus and the apostles said it would?

These doctrines include the trinity...immortality of the human soul...hellfire as an eternal punishment for the wicked....a heavenly reward for all the faithful (including pre-Christian servants of God)....and the cross as a religious symbol. These beliefs were formulated or adopted into church dogma in the centuries after Jesus and his apostles died. These are the teachings I reject. Jesus never taught any of these things.

Even though the Catholic Church that was the agency through which the Bible canon was compiled, there is no teaching of Christendom that is contained in scripture. These themes are forced into scripture but none of them were Jewish teachings. As a Jew, Jesus would not have taught them.

It is my view that Christianity has presented a corrupted image of God as the Ruthless Moralist, Ruling Caesar, and Unmoved Mover. I view God more as the Cosmic Artist luring the world to greater beauty. I think that what Christ had in mind. The Trinity is certainly implied in Scripture, though not worked out in any real detail. The prologue to Jn, for example, clearly establishes the Deity of Christ. Also, it is clear in Scripture that the Spirit is God. However, the Bible is not a book of metaphysics, and putting together a coherent picture of the Trinity is something we have to do. Hence, the Trinitarian formulas are extra-biblical in nature. I am not really happy with the majority of Trinitarian formulas, as they reflect Hellenic substance metaphysics, which I reject.
Hell is also very problematic for me. Christ preaches a God of love; and when you love others, you do not seek to coerce them with threats and terrible punishments. Christ says we are to our enemies and that God is kind and compassionate with the ungrateful and wicked. Problem is, you have all these dark sayings of Christ where he does talk about some sort of Hell. I am of two minds here. Perhaps such statements were added by later spin-doctors seeking a more punitive, vengeful God. Perhaps Christ was talking about aspects of universal salvation which could involve pain. Fire is not always negative in Christianity. Christian mystics often likened God to a fire, and us to iron in this fire. Some of the iron seems to resist the fire more than others. So a cold, stony, legalistic person caught up in what some have called teh furnace of divine love might have a painful time of it, might resist becoming more open and loving and empathic. I think the immortality of the soul, you mean life beyond the grave, certainly the Resurrection testifies to that as well as the teachings of Paul. I do have trouble with Paul because I find he slips too easily back into a legalistic model of a juridical, punitive God.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It is my view that Christianity has presented a corrupted image of God as the Ruthless Moralist, Ruling Caesar, and Unmoved Mover. I view God more as the Cosmic Artist luring the world to greater beauty. I think that what Christ had in mind. The Trinity is certainly implied in Scripture, though not worked out in any real detail. The prologue to Jn, for example, clearly establishes the Deity of Christ. Also, it is clear in Scripture that the Spirit is God. However, the Bible is not a book of metaphysics, and putting together a coherent picture of the Trinity is something we have to do. Hence, the Trinitarian formulas are extra-biblical in nature. I am not really happy with the majority of Trinitarian formulas, as they reflect Hellenic substance metaphysics, which I reject.
Hell is also very problematic for me. Christ preaches a God of love; and when you love others, you do not seek to coerce them with threats and terrible punishments. Christ says we are to our enemies and that God is kind and compassionate with the ungrateful and wicked. Problem is, you have all these dark sayings of Christ where he does talk about some sort of Hell. I am of two minds here. Perhaps such statements were added by later spin-doctors seeking a more punitive, vengeful God. Perhaps Christ was talking about aspects of universal salvation which could involve pain. Fire is not always negative in Christianity. Christian mystics often likened God to a fire, and us to iron in this fire. Some of the iron seems to resist the fire more than others. So a cold, stony, legalistic person caught up in what some have called teh furnace of divine love might have a painful time of it, might resist becoming more open and loving and empathic. I think the immortality of the soul, you mean life beyond the grave, certainly the Resurrection testifies to that as well as the teachings of Paul. I do have trouble with Paul because I find he slips too easily back into a legalistic model of a juridical, punitive God.
thank you
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Then that would mean Jesus pre-exist as the Word. So you are saying that in the beginning, there is Archangel Michael that exists because there is the Word who became man-Jesus. May I ask if when He (Jesus) is the Archangel Michael, and when He (Jesus) is the Word?

Depending on the role he is playing, he assumes the name along with the role because a name in the Bible has deep meaning. Names aren't just labels, so the pre-human Jesus filled quite a few different roles and a name was attached to each one them.

If the Holy Spirit is not a person (impersonal), why He grieved, convicts and speaking??by Yoshua
No. It is not what I meant. It is about personal and impersonal. As I know JW's believed that the HS is a force. If that would be, then how come a force, and an impersonal speaks, convict and grieved?

Does the Bible teach that the “Holy Spirit” is a person?
Some individual texts that refer to the holy spirit (“Holy Ghost,” KJ) might seem to indicate personality. For example, the holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa·raʹkle·tos; “Comforter,” KJ; “Advocate,” JB, NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. (See also pages 380, 381, under the heading “Spirit.”)
The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit. (See also Revelation 7:10; 22:1, 3.)
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296." (Reasoning from the Scriptures)

Can you show the supporting scriptures that says the spirit being became Jesus?by Yoshua
Matt 1:20
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NIV

Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.NIV
It says that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Now, may I ask if how come Archangel Michael, an angelic being is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. How come that the Spirit of God is Archangel Michael and Jesus:shrug:???

Wait a sec....Where have I ever said that Michael is the holy spirit? It was the actions of God's spirit that transferred the life force of his son into the womb of Mary. He was born as the man Jesus according to prophesy.

If the prophets spoke words coming from Jehovah, does it mean that Jehovah make mistakes, unsure in the timing of a prophesy?? :rolleyes:
Does a mistake is not "false"? or a mistake can be right?:eek:

Not sure I understand this one.....but we have no prophets. So mistakes in timing is an imperfect human issue.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not sure I understand this one.....but we have no prophets. So mistakes in timing is an imperfect human issue.

Jehovah's Witnesses have no one who is regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.

Another definition: A person chosen to lead God's people.

We are suppose to trust in the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, but they don't teach or proclaim the will of God. Then, pray tell, whose will are they proclaiming?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Jehovah's Witnesses act like prophets, but they are not prophets. What's that called?

Sigh Jehovah's Witnesses are prophets when they tell people in the name of Jehovah what they should be doing and not be doing, but they are not prophets when they make a false prediction.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
we have no prophets.
"This was the test - the coming down of fire; and the fulfillment exactly on time has proved that Pastor Russell was one of God's great reformers and prophets."Watchtower 1919 Oct 1 p.297"For an answer, people should listen to the plain preaching by the remnant prefigured by Jeremiah, for these preach to men the present-day fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecies. Who made them a prophet to speak with the authority that they claim? Well, who made Jeremiah a prophet?" Watchtower 1959 Jan 15 pp.39-41"Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation."Watchtower 1964 Oct 1 p.601

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?
... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.
... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom."Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them'

"Even while being trampled on, these loyal ones do not cease to be Jehovah’s faithful witnesses. Hence, the prophecy continues: “‘And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.’ These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.”—Revelation 11:3, 4. These faithful anointed Christians needed the quality of endurance, for they had to prophesy “in sackcloth.” What did this mean? In Bible times sackcloth often symbolized mourning. Wearing it was a sign that the person had been brought low in sorrow or distress. (Genesis 37:34; Job 16:15, 16; Ezekiel 27:31) Sackcloth was associated with the mournful messages of doom or grief thatGod’s prophets had to proclaim. (Isaiah 3:8, 24-26; Jeremiah 48:37; 49:3) The wearing of sackcloth could indicate humility or repentance in view of divine warning. (Jonah 3:5) The sackcloth worn by the two witnesses appears to indicate their humble endurance in announcing Jehovah’s judgments. They were witnesses proclaiming his day of vengeance that would bring mourning also to the nations.—Deuteronomy 32:41-43. The John class had to preach this message for a definitely stated time: 1,260 days, or 42 months, the same length of time that the holy city was to be trampled underfoot. This period seems to be literal, since it is expressed in two different ways, first in months and then in days. Additionally, at the beginning of the Lord’s day, there was a marked period of three and a half years when the hard experiences of God’s people matched the events prophesied here—starting in December 1914 and continuing to June 1918. (Revelation 1:10) They preached a “sackcloth” message concerning Jehovah’s judgment of Christendom and the world. The fact that they were symbolized by two witnesses confirms to us that their message was accurate and well founded." Revelation, It's Grand Climax At Hand! p.164

"… commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name…" Watchtower 1972 Mar 15 p.189

"All True Christians ARE Prophets. The New American Bible correctly states: "Prophet means 'one who speaks for another,' especially for God. It does not necessarily mean that he predicts the future!" You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses." Awake! 1986 Jun 8 p. 9

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/jehovahs-prophet.php
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Anything you can quote from this century? Old Watchtowers and publications are like old newspapers, they are not viewed as scripture and never were.

We have never claimed to be prophets. No one is forcing anyone to accept the teachings of the GB. If they are not your slave, then why bother harping on about them.
Let it go.......
choir.gif
the tune is getting old and its all been sung a hundred times.....I think we get it.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have never claimed to be prophets.
Who publishes the Awake magazine?

"All True Christians ARE Prophets. The New American Bible correctly states: "Prophet means 'one who speaks for another,' especially for God. It does not necessarily mean that he predicts the future!" You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses." Awake! 1986 Jun 8 p. 9
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Anything you can quote from this century? Old Watchtowers and publications are like old newspapers, they are not viewed as scripture and never were.

This is getting ridiculous. @Deeje, you say we are to eat at the governing body table, which means trust what they teach, but what they say will be different later?

You call yourself, "In the truth" but it is OK to tell bold face lies?

What if they finally discover they are not the faithful and discreet slave?

Is Awake! 1986 Jun 8 p. 9 true or false right now? Will it change again? When?

Many faithful Jehovah's Witnesses who have died knew a different truth. What will it be like for them when they get resurrected? Will they have no memory of the 20th century truth, or will they remember it and have to discard it? How will that happen?
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have never claimed to be prophets. No one is forcing anyone to accept the teachings of the GB. If they are not your slave, then why bother harping on about them.
When they publicly retract their statement that "soon six billion hearts will stop beating" and when they discard the teaching that to save my child I must persuade him to serve Jehovah with the Jehovah's Witnesses, then I will leave you and it alone. You tell me when that happens. I need proof. OK?

I want another thing. It might seem petty, and for that I am sorry. I want the governing body to confess they made up **** about the women of Noah's day and it might be nice if they would try to explain why they did it.

I think I would be happy to hear that they know it is only an assumption that Jesus said to make disciples and what he really meant is to be a disciple. Revelation 14:5
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Haleluyah comes from the Hebrew meaning praise God. Yahweh is standard in the trade, so to speak. The preferred mode by the majority of scholars. The Codex apparently has vowel indicators, but these were probably fro another term, such as Adonai, since it was forbidden to speak the name of God.

Yes, the Halelu'yah' is Hebrew, but 'yah' ( Latin 'Jah' ) is Not a word for the title word of God. - Psalms 150
The Scriptures do Not forbid the speaking of God's ' hallowed be your name ' God. - John 17;6; John 17:26
Adonai just means Sovereign Lord, and Elohim just means God, neither of which are the Tetragrammaton (YHWH)
 

Shak34

Active Member
We have never claimed to be prophets.
The question is then: What does it take to be considered a prophet? Could it be......

Claiming to be God's channel:
"That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel." Watchtower 2013 Jul 15 p.20

Claiming that all new direction is not man made but comes from heaven:
"This is a theocracy, ruled by God. Not a collection of manmade decisions. This is governed from heaven." GB Anthony Morris JW Broadcasting Video Jehovah Blesses Obedience

Predictions: 1914, 1925, and 1975 are just a few end times predicted JW dates.

So then what would make a false prophet?

Luke 21:8
Deuteronomy 18:18-20

Years of failed predictions, and yet still claim that all direction comes from God points to false prophets.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
As Proverbs 4:18 mentions with the passing of time spiritual light ( understanding ) becomes lighter and brighter until Jesus' coming 1,000-year day of governing over Earth begins.

Regardless of past dates that does Not change that we are in the last days of badness on Earth as mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As Proverbs 4:18 mentions with the passing of time spiritual light ( understanding ) becomes lighter and brighter until Jesus' coming 1,000-year day of governing over Earth begins.
No. Understanding is in the minds of the "believers". The light is truth from heaven, it can't mean what you say it means. Understanding grows, but truth stays the same. Does truth change, in your opinion?

The Jehovah's Witness's arrangement has truth changing because to them [it seems] truth and understanding are synonymous. Understanding is a human thing and it is written that we are NOT to lean on it, but truth is Jesus who is light which is the way.

The path (the way, ie Jesus) of the righteous gets brighter and brighter. It means Jesus, who like his Father does not change, gets more real to the believer as the day draws near.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not need Jesus. They have the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

It is written, Jesus disciples are the light of the world.

JWs say light means understanding. If it does, then you can replace light at Matthew 5:14 with understanding. Is that righteous?

You are the light understanding of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The question is then: What does it take to be considered a prophet? Could it be......

Claiming to be God's channel:
"That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel." Watchtower 2013 Jul 15 p.20

Claiming that all new direction is not man made but comes from heaven:
"This is a theocracy, ruled by God. Not a collection of manmade decisions. This is governed from heaven." GB Anthony Morris JW Broadcasting Video Jehovah Blesses Obedience

Predictions: 1914, 1925, and 1975 are just a few end times predicted JW dates.

So then what would make a false prophet?

Luke 21:8
Deuteronomy 18:18-20

Years of failed predictions, and yet still claim that all direction comes from God points to false prophets.

You are a former JW Shak34 or raised as one? You post like an apostate. Nuff said.

There is no real point in responding to these comments except to alert others to the deceptive nature of them....if you have made up your mind, then so be it. Your avatar says it all.

If we are conveying the prophesies that are already written in the Bible, then what are we? Messengers....the prophesies are not ours, so we are "prophets" by proxy in that case. . Mistakes in the timing are nothing new. The apostles also mistook the timing of the coming of God's kingdom too. (Acts of the Apostles 1:6)

"Keeping on the watch" is something Jesus told us to do (Matthew 24:42)....we make no apology for doing it. In a city, the watchman was to stand guard on the watchtower and raise the alarm if something was spotted on the horizon...if it proved to be a threat, then the people were ready, but if it was a false alarm, everything went back to business as usual. That is how it is with us.

Haters are gonna hate.....faults will always be the focus. See whatever you want to see.
 

Shak34

Active Member
You are a former JW Shak34 or raised as one? You post like an apostate. Nuff said.

There is no real point in responding to these comments except to alert others to the deceptive nature of them....if you have made up your mind, then so be it. Your avatar says it all.

My comments are not deceptive at all and I have no idea where that is coming from. :shrug: My quotes are quoted word for word and anyone could find them. The deceptive nature you speak of does not come from me.

As for my avatar, What did Sparlock ever do to you? ;)


P.S. I'm not an apostate.:p
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we are conveying the prophesies that are already written in the Bible, then what are we? Messengers....the prophesies are not ours, so we are "prophets" by proxy in that case.
Again, not true. Ephesians 4:25

You put JWs spin on everything written. You have made up your mind about what every scripture means. You are leaning on governing body interpretation of scripture.

You are making a parable into a prophesy. If Matthew 24:45 is parable, not prophesy, then you DO prophesy falsely.

You are as sure of the truthfulness of the imperfect men of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses as I am of the love of God. 1 Corinthians 2:2

My surety is scriptural. Yours is definitely NOT scriptural. Everyone but JWs knows it.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/trusting_man

I dare you to look at it! I double dare you. :cool:
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jehovah's witnesses prophesy that God says we are now to disregard all previous counsel about who we should trust.

Because PROPHESY MEANS TO SPEAK ABOUT THE TRUE GOD AND WHAT THE TRUE GOD CONSIDERS RIGHT AND WRONG!

Can you HEAR me lady @Deeje.
 
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