Let's start at the beginning? maybe?

[LuisDantas]

My expectations, based on prior experiences, have not been disappointed. We have a mostly friendly and informative discussion that has stayed on topic for 8 pages now. That is something.

I very much second this. The subject matter, let's be frank, is far more difficult than most people even realize. And far as I can tell there has been a lot of sincere good will and honest effort in the posts. That is promising and significant.

 

[Pogo]

That is not too far off the mark. As it happens, the pool is a population of living specimens.




Yes and no. It is, but there are two complications.

1. Species are a fairly artificial concept, hard to truly delimit. Cats sometimes breed with wolves, horse with donkeys, tigers with lions. That is not usually of interest, but it depends on what we are trying to follow.

2. Speciation (the arising of new species) can only happen from inside a previously existing species.

Cats sometimes breed with wolves

Now lets not you send her down the Crocoduck alley.

 

[LuisDantas]

Now lets not you send her down the Crocoduck alley.

Sorry for that mistake! I tried to correct it in the original post.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is not too far off the mark. As it happens, the pool is a population of living specimens.

But this population varies from human to human, right? I say human because right now that's what it seems we are talking about. I haven't progressed to gorillas, etc. yet.

Yes and no. It is, but there are two complications.

1. Species are a fairly artificial concept, hard to truly delimit. Cats Dogs sometimes breed with wolves, horse with donkeys, tigers with lions. That is not usually of interest, but it depends on what we are trying to follow.

2. Speciation (the arising of new species) can only happen from inside a previously existing species.

OK, maybe I just better stick with trying to understand the concept of gene pool relating to ? humans? I see your point, and if scientists are not clear about these things (in other words, can't say with certainty what's what) how should a simple person like me know? Hint: (we can't, or so I think). In the words of Descartes, I think therefore I am confused...

 

[YoursTrue]

That is not too far off the mark. As it happens, the pool is a population of living specimens.




Yes and no. It is, but there are two complications.

1. Species are a fairly artificial concept, hard to truly delimit. Cats Dogs sometimes breed with wolves, horse with donkeys, tigers with lions. That is not usually of interest, but it depends on what we are trying to follow.

2. Speciation (the arising of new species) can only happen from inside a previously existing species.

After reading about the lykoi (wolf cat) I am giving up for sure. I think. Maybe I'll just pass over gene pool and see what else scientists say about this.

 

[YoursTrue]

Now lets not you send her down the Crocoduck alley.

So would you rather do the explaining about what constitutes a gene pool and what it means?

 

[YoursTrue]

Sorry for that mistake! I tried to correct it in the original post.

I appreciate your answers and probably in the future will not pay attention to those that are sarcastic and jesting in their comments. But anyway, it looks like I'm at a fairly dead end (try interpreting that expression= "fairly dead end." ). Since I have an idea of what gene pool is now, maybe I'll go on to the next idea in the berkeley.edu treatise on evolution. Later -- when I have more time...thanks, though.

 

[sayak83]

So would you rather do the explaining about what constitutes a gene pool and what it means?

Gene code for or regulate the formation of proteins and enzymes that make and control every aspect of body and mind. Every human genome has two copies of a gene (double stranded DNA). Suppose we list the entire set of gene pairs a human person has h = ( A1B1, A2B2, .....AnBn) where n is the total number of genes in a human. We can represent this set of genes symbolically as (AiBi), with i counter going from 1 to n.
Now this is for a single human person. Other humans will also have a set of these n genes, but slightly different versions of them...which why they look and behave differently. Suppose the world has m human beings living right now. Then the entire collection of active genes in the entire human population can be written as the Matrix H = [ AijBij] where is the counter for genes going from 1 to n along a row, and j is the counter for humans going from 1 to m along a column. This Matrix H is the genetic pool of human species today.
Image of a matrix
Link

 

[YoursTrue]

@Heyo I know you asked which textbook I had about evolution. I got rid of it because I didn't understand it. It was a big book, called Evolution. Anyway, I think I'll start looking in the library rather than buying something I don't follow (understand). I am going to read something about Stephen Hawking soon, quite a treatise, called "Hawking Hawking."
Sorry, that should have been answered to @sayak83.

 

[YoursTrue]

Gene code for or regulate the formation of proteins and enzymes that make and control every aspect of body and mind. Every human genome has two copies of a gene (double stranded DNA). Suppose we list the entire set of gene pairs a human person has h = ( A1B1, A2B2, .....AnBn) where n is the total number of genes in a human. We can represent this set of genes symbolically as (AiBi), with i counter going from 1 to n.
Now this is for a single human person. Other humans will also have a set of these n genes, but slightly different versions of them...which why they look and behave differently. Suppose the world has m human beings living right now. Then the entire collection of active genes in the entire human population can be written as the Matrix H = [ AijBij] where is the counter for genes going from 1 to n along a row, and j is the counter for humans going from 1 to m along a column. This Matrix H is the genetic pool of human species today.
Image of a matrix
Link

I think I understand. thanks.

 

[Heyo]

This Matrix H is the genetic pool of human species today.

I'm reluctant to nitpick here as it isn't really important now, but ...
the gene pool is technically only the unique entries in the matrix.
Your gene pool doesn't get bigger by simply adding the genes of more people or gets smaller by subtracting people. It's only if they have a gene that makes them unique and only that one gene.
/nitpick

 

[sayak83]

I'm reluctant to nitpick here as it isn't really important now, but ...
the gene pool is technically only the unique entries in the matrix.
Your gene pool doesn't get bigger by simply adding the genes of more people or gets smaller by subtracting people. It's only if they have a gene that makes them unique and only that one gene.
/nitpick

In mathematical theories of evolution redundancies are kept I believe....primarily because duplicate genes often strengthen a certain synthesis route and serves as a unit in which mutational effects can operate.
But yes. In general only the unique elements are together defined as the gene pool set.

 

[YoursTrue]

Gene code for or regulate the formation of proteins and enzymes that make and control every aspect of body and mind. Every human genome has two copies of a gene (double stranded DNA). Suppose we list the entire set of gene pairs a human person has h = ( A1B1, A2B2, .....AnBn) where n is the total number of genes in a human. We can represent this set of genes symbolically as (AiBi), with i counter going from 1 to n.
Now this is for a single human person. Other humans will also have a set of these n genes, but slightly different versions of them...which why they look and behave differently. Suppose the world has m human beings living right now. Then the entire collection of active genes in the entire human population can be written as the Matrix H = [ AijBij] where is the counter for genes going from 1 to n along a row, and j is the counter for humans going from 1 to m along a column. This Matrix H is the genetic pool of human species today.
Image of a matrix
Link

Not saying the above is not true, but now I am wondering about questions about species, described in an earlier post that it's kind of hard to determine (my own words). So once again, either the anxiety is building up, or I give up. almost. And of course I'm trying t-r-y-i-n-g to understand the theory of evolution from the beginning of the description. But having trouble. However, I may keep going, we'll see.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm reluctant to nitpick here as it isn't really important now, but ...
the gene pool is technically only the unique entries in the matrix.
Your gene pool doesn't get bigger by simply adding the genes of more people or gets smaller by subtracting people. It's only if they have a gene that makes them unique and only that one gene.
/nitpick

ok. Well I'm still on figuring that there is a (current) understanding of the present human species (homosapiens). And the last I read is that a Neanderthal bone was investigated to find out its genetic makeup, if I'm using the correct terminology. So maybe -- I'm up to Neanderthal...although it is said that humans possess Neanderthal genes. (right?)
P.S. I realize some here must be very well versed or knowledgeable about the theory (of evolution).

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm reluctant to nitpick here as it isn't really important now, but ...
the gene pool is technically only the unique entries in the matrix.
Your gene pool doesn't get bigger by simply adding the genes of more people or gets smaller by subtracting people. It's only if they have a gene that makes them unique and only that one gene.
/nitpick

ok, I'm passing that up and I confess I must be really dumb because I don't understand that. I didn't think gene pool was within any one organism. But then again -- maybe I'm wrong. I'm still mixed up. I can call myself dumb but best no one else does. Even if it's true.

 

[YoursTrue]

So now, after the previous few posts, I'm thinking -- can a "gene pool" be within one organism? I mean like the last of the Neanderthals -- was a gene pool within him? (or her)

 

[Daemon Sophic]

I'm reluctant to nitpick here as it isn't really important now, but ...
the gene pool is technically only the unique entries in the matrix.
Your gene pool doesn't get bigger by simply adding the genes of more people or gets smaller by subtracting people. It's only if they have a gene that makes them unique and only that one gene.
/nitpick

Sorry, but nitpicking right back at you, buuuuuuuuut........ Since we also use the "gene pool" statistically to determine ratios of p vs q in each generation, then ALL of the populous must be included, even if any one entity doesn't bring a new mutation to the table. Additionally, part and parcel of the discussion of evolution is just that, random mutations, in one person in the population, and how well that particular mutation gets passed on, to how many offspring, and their proportion of the following generations. They don't even have the new mutation in their own germline, but it exists due to an oddity of meiosis while generating a gamete.
/nitpick

But this population varies from human to human, right? I say human because right now that's what it seems we are talking about. I haven't progressed to gorillas, etc. yet.

OK, maybe I just better stick with trying to understand the concept of gene pool relating to ? humans? I see your point, and if scientists are not clear about these things (in other words, can't say with certainty what's what) how should a simple person like me know? Hint: (we can't, or so I think). In the words of Descartes, I think therefore I am confused...

Sure, but sometimes we will need to discuss bacteria, or fish, or balloons, etc... for analogies and for discussions of evolution. But for the gene pool, we can try to stick with the human gene pool.
It is a good basis to consider one specific species something wherein the members can breed with each other to make viable offspring. I.e. - offspring capable of siring/mothering others of their species.

After reading about the lykoi (wolf cat) I am giving up for sure. I think. Maybe I'll just pass over gene pool and see what else scientists say about this.

No. Just..... No.
Those are just cats. Period. No wolf/cat hybrid. Just. A. Cat. Somebody got overenthusiastic about naming them with a "wolf" tag, just because their paws are wide, and their faces are broad. BUT. They are just cats.
@LuisDantas must be flogged with a wet noodle.

ok, I'm passing that up and I confess I must be really dumb because I don't understand that. I didn't think gene pool was within any one organism. But then again -- maybe I'm wrong. I'm still mixed up. I can call myself dumb but best no one else does. Even if it's true.

I think you're doing great! So much more than so many others who almost invariably don't even try.
Keep up the fantastic work!
Keeping it in the human species. One person has a genome (a.k.a. a set of genes written on their 23 chromosomes). A group of people (7 or 7 billion) make up a gene pool. All the individuals of one species who have the potential to mate with one another to create viable offspring.

 

[sayak83]

Not saying the above is not true, but now I am wondering about questions about species, described in an earlier post that it's kind of hard to determine (my own words). So once again, either the anxiety is building up, or I give up. almost. And of course I'm trying t-r-y-i-n-g to understand the theory of evolution from the beginning of the description. But having trouble. However, I may keep going, we'll see.

It's possible to mathematically define the species concept using the kind of Matrix I constructed. Suppose we do not know how to distinguish living beings in terms of one or another species. What we could (theoretically) do is to sequence the genes of every living organism on the planet and create a giant gene matrix G, whose rows give the set of genes of each and every living thing. Now we can ask: Can we club together rows into various subgroups based on how similar or dissimilar the rows are?
Remember the row entries AikBik are giving you the set of 'i' genes present in the 'k'th living thing. Living things belonging to a species will have very very similar (nearly identical with a few variants here and there) set of row entries....while living things belonging to other species may have quite different row entry values. In linear algebra and data sciences there are quantitative ways to precisely quantify the similarity indices of different rows. And if we do this here, we will find that the rows can be naturally grouped into multiple "sub-matrices" whose internal row entries are very very similar to each other. These sub-matrices contain all the individual living things that can be classified as one "species" or "lineage".

 

[Heyo]

ok, I'm passing that up and I confess I must be really dumb because I don't understand that. I didn't think gene pool was within any one organism. But then again -- maybe I'm wrong. I'm still mixed up. I can call myself dumb but best no one else does. Even if it's true.

I knew I should have let that one slide ...
I guess the confusing thing is that I said "your gene pool". With that, I didn't mean his personal genome. The gene pool is not within one individual.
Maybe I can try and make an analogy. Let's say you have a group of people, pupils of a school, for instance. They together have a "skill pool". The skill pool is a list of the things someone in the school can do. It doesn't matter who or how many can do a certain thing, just that that ability exists in someone at the school.
It is specific to an environment (the school).
It is dependent on the time. (Next year a new pupil could enter who has an ability no-one else had.)
Now the headmaster can ask himself, "do we have someone who can perform skill X?". He doesn't care who can do it, he doesn't care how many can do it, and he doesn't care if someone outside the school can do it.

Back to the human gene pool. It is simply the question, "is there someone with a gene for red hair living on Earth today?". If the answer is "yes", then the gene for red hair is in the gene pool.

 

[YoursTrue]

I knew I should have let that one slide ...
I guess the confusing thing is that I said "your gene pool". With that, I didn't mean his personal genome. The gene pool is not within one individual.
Maybe I can try and make an analogy. Let's say you have a group of people, pupils of a school, for instance. They together have a "skill pool". The skill pool is a list of the things someone in the school can do. It doesn't matter who or how many can do a certain thing, just that that ability exists in someone at the school.
It is specific to an environment (the school).
It is dependent on the time. (Next year a new pupil could enter who has an ability no-one else had.)
Now the headmaster can ask himself, "do we have someone who can perform skill X?". He doesn't care who can do it, he doesn't care how many can do it, and he doesn't care if someone outside the school can do it.

Back to the human gene pool. It is simply the question, "is there someone with a gene for red hair living on Earth today?". If the answer is "yes", then the gene for red hair is in the gene pool.

OK, thanks, I think I understand.