Legalize Marijuana?

[Zephyr]

That's kind of what I was thinking....Since human trafficking is a problem anyways, a ton of funds could be freed up from this ridiculous War on Drugs and redirected to stopping other horrendous trades going on.

Bingo. We should be putting in more resources against that than we should, but our police are often too busy arresting peaceful stoners.

 

[Zephyr]

Welp, one of my buddies got busted. Fortunately it was just a single joint and no charges are being pushed, though he'll have to go to a school-run addiction program.

This is a dude who never produced or sold, and only occasionally had a celebratory spliff after finishing a big test or essay. Just glad he got lucky and won't have anything too damning on his record.

That's prohibition for ya.

 

[Stellify]

Welp, one of my buddies got busted. Fortunately it was just a single joint and no charges are being pushed, though he'll have to go to a school-run addiction program.

This is a dude who never produced or sold, and only occasionally had a celebratory spliff after finishing a big test or essay. Just glad he got lucky and won't have anything too damning on his record.

That's prohibition for ya.

That sucks But I'm glad he's just getting a slap on the wrist instead of charges being pressed, that really is lucky. :yes:
More and more often I see/hear about cops just making people destroy their stash/memorabilia if they get caught, instead of having anything put on their record.

 

[Zephyr]

That sucks But I'm glad he's just getting a slap on the wrist instead of charges being pressed, that really is lucky. :yes:
More and more often I see/hear about cops just making people destroy their stash/memorabilia if they get caught, instead of having anything put on their record.

The cops are usually pretty cool over on the west side outside of Seattle. I've had friends back home just been given a warning and told to take it inside since they obviously weren't selling or growing.

Unfortunately, I'm back on the red side of Washington.

 

[darkmage121]

In Wicca we have one rule. "If it hurt none, do as you will" The question is, dose a little pot really hurt anyone?

 

[DarkSun]

In Wicca we have one rule. "If it hurt none, do as you will" The question is, dose a little pot really hurt anyone?

Well, it's more likely to cause lung cancer than cigarette smoke, and there is a arguable link between marijuana-use and mental illness.

So I'd have to say yes... it does hurt people.

 

[Zephyr]

Well, it's more likely to cause lung cancer than cigarette smoke

[citation needed]

Marijuana smokers don't smoke packs of joints a day.

Hey Darksun, shall we ban opiate-based medicine as well? It can cause harm to people. How about solvents like acetone? Some people hurt themselves with those too.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

[citation needed]

:redcard:

Marijuana smokers don't smoke packs of joints a day.

Exactly,

but Phillip Morris probably has something like this in mind.

Hey Darksun, shall we ban opiate-based medicine as well? It can cause harm to people. How about solvents like acetone? Some people hurt themselves with those too.

and cars, fast food, alcohol...

 

[DarkSun]

:redcard:



Exactly,

but Phillip Morris probably has something like this in mind.



and cars, fast food, alcohol...

[citation needed]

Marijuana smokers don't smoke packs of joints a day.

Hey Darksun, shall we ban opiate-based medicine as well? It can cause harm to people. How about solvents like acetone? Some people hurt themselves with those too.

I feel like an unstoppable train right now.... Except an immovable wall has been placed on the track, and I just can't derail myself.

 

[DarkSun]

[citation needed]

Marijuana smokers don't smoke packs of joints a day.

Hey Darksun, shall we ban opiate-based medicine as well? It can cause harm to people. How about solvents like acetone? Some people hurt themselves with those too.

Citation needed?

Okay, sure.

(J Thorac Oncol. (2008 Dec 3) P| 1371-2.)

Cannabis smoking and risk of lung cancer in men: a pooled analysis of three studies in Maghreb.Cannabis is the most widely consumed illicit drug worldwide and the relation between cannabis smoking and lung cancer is suggestive, albeit inconclusive. METHOD: We conducted three hospital based case-control studies in Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria, three areas of high prevalence of cannabis consumption as well as production. This paper presents the pooled analysis of these three studies restricted to men with a total of 430 cases and 778 controls.

RESULTS: Ninety-six percent of the cases and 67.8% of the controls were tobacco smokers and 15.3% of the cases and 5% of the controls were ever cannabis smokers. All cannabis smokers were tobacco users. Adjusting for country, age, tobacco smoking, and occupational exposure, the odds ratio (OR) for lung cancer was 2.4 (95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.6-3.8) for ever cannabis smoking. This association remained after adjustment for lifetime tobacco packyears as continuous variable, OR = 2.3 (95% CI: 1.5-3.6). The OR adjusted for intensity of tobacco smoking (cigarette/d) among current tobacco smokers and never cannabis smokers was 10.9 (95% CI: 6.0-19.7) and the OR among current tobacco users and ever cannabis smokers was 18.2 (95% CI: 8.0-41.0). The risk of lung cancer increased with increasing joint-years, but not with increasing dose or duration of cannabis smoking.

CONCLUSION: Our results suggest that cannabis smoking may be a risk factor for lung cancer. However, residual confounding by tobacco smoking or other potential confounders may explain part of the increased risk



Division of Pulmonaiy & Critical Care Medicine, Department of Medicine, David Geffen School of Medicine, UCLA, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1690, USA. [email protected]


In many societies, marijuana is the second most commonly smoked substance after tobacco. While delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is unique to marijuana and nicotine to tobacco, the smoke of marijuana, like that of tobacco, consists of a toxic mixture of gases and particulates, many of which are known to be harmful to the lung. Although far fewer marijuana than tobacco cigarettes are generally smoked on a daily basis, the pulmonary consequences of marijuana smoking may be magnified by the greater deposition of smoke particulates in the lung due to the differing manner in which marijuana is smoked. Whereas THC causes modest short-term bronchodilation, regular marijuana smoking produces a number of long-term pulmonary consequences, including chronic cough and sputum, histopathologic evidence of widespread airway inflammation and injury and immunohistochemical evidence of dysregulated growth of respiratory epithelial cells, that may be precursors to lung cancer. The THC in marijuana could contribute to some of these injurious changes through its ability to augment oxidative stress, cause mitochondrial dysfunction, and inhibit apoptosis. On the other hand, physiologic, clinical or epidemiologic evidence that marijuana smoking may lead to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or respiratory cancer is limited and inconsistent. Habitual use of marijuana is also associated with abnormalities in the structure and function of alveolar macrophages, including impairment in microbial phagocytosis and killing that is associated with defective production of immunostimulatory cytokines and nitric oxide, thereby potentially predisposing to pulmonary infection. In view of the growing interest in medicinal marijuana, further epidemiologic studies are needed to clarify the true risks of regular marijuana smoking on respiratory health.


Tobacco and Cancer Group, International Agency for Research on Cancer, Lyon, France.


The association between the use of cannabis and the risk of lung cancer is unclear. A hospital-based case-control study was conducted among men in Tunisia and included 149 incident lung cancer cases and 188 controls. Tobacco smoking was significantly associated with an increased risk of lung cancer with odds ratios increasing linearly (p for trend < 0.0001) from 3.9 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.4-10.9) for former smokers to 17.1 (95% CI: 6.3-46.3) among current smokers who had smoked for >35 years. The odds ratio for the past use of cannabis and lung cancer was 4.1 (95% CI: 1.9-9.0) after adjustment for age, tobacco use, and occupational exposures. No clear dose-response relationship was observed between the risk of lung cancer and the intensity or duration of cannabis use. This study suggests that smoking cannabis may be a risk factor for lung cancer.



D'Souza, Deepak Cyril et al. (2009) "PSYCHOPHARMACOLOGY" P|569-578

Acute and chronic exposure to cannabinoids has been associated with cognitive deficits, a higher risk for schizophrenia and other drug abuse. However, the precise mechanism underlying such effects is not known. Preclinical studies suggest that cannabinoids modulate brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF). Accordingly, we hypothesized that Delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (Delta(9)-THC), the principal active component of cannabis, would alter BDNF levels in humans.

Healthy control subjects (n = 14) and light users of cannabis (n = 9) received intravenous administration of (0.0286 mg/kg) Delta(9)-THC in a double-blind, fixed order, placebo-controlled, laboratory study. Serum sampled at baseline, after placebo administration, and after Delta(9)-THC administration was assayed for BDNF using ELISA.


Delta(9)-THC increased serum BDNF levels in healthy controls but not light users of cannabis. Further, light users of cannabis had lower basal BDNF levels. Delta(9)-THC produced psychotomimetic effects, perceptual alterations, and "high" and spatial memory impairments.


The effects of socially relevant doses of cannabinoids on BDNF suggest a possible mechanism underlying the consequences of exposure to cannabis. This may be of particular importance for the developing brain and also in disorders believed to involve altered neurodevelopment such as schizophrenia. Larger studies to investigate the effects of cannabinoids on BDNF and other neurotrophins are warranted.


Gudlowski, Y et al. (2008) "GESUNDHEITSWESEN" p|653-657

Cannabis consumption has varying effects over the whole life span, especially on achievements in the areas of schooling, professional life and performance in a social environment. Data from Studies oil remission from neurocognitive deficits following chronic cannabis consumption are ambiguous. The outcome range included everything from complete remission over considerable lasting deficits up to even chronic psychotic disorders. The data seem to be consistent however, when a differentiation between early begin of consumption (before the age of 16) and late begin of consumption is taken into account. Mainly those cannabis users with an early begin of consumption are prone to developing lasting neurocognitive deficits and even a decrease in grey Substance volume, as well as an increase in the risk of psychosis. The correlation of this outcome with cannabis Consumption during a phase of brain development that includes the consolidation of higher cognitive functions, awareness of social cues, planning of concepts and motivation as well as tools of functional control, is highly convincing. The endocannabinoid system reaches the point of highest receptor density during this age of 16/17 years, and many of the above-mentioned developmental processes are modulated by this system. A chronic damage to this system (e.g., down-regulation or desensitisation of CB1receptors by exogenous cannabinoids) therefore holds the potential for permanent neurophysiological as well as neurocognitive deficits, and also for the development of psychotic disorders.

Well, it looks like marijuana is not more likely to cause lung cancer than cigarettes. My bad.

But... it is still a cause of lung cancer. And it is undeniably linked to psychosis.

 

[DarkSun]

and cars, fast food, alcohol...

And meth, and cocaine, and heroin...

 

[Zephyr]

Citation needed?

Okay, sure.



Well, it looks like marijuana is not more likely to cause lung cancer than cigarettes. My bad.

But... it is still a cause of lung cancer. And it is undeniably linked to psychosis.

Every marijuana smoker in the study also smoked tobacco. It is testing the combination of marijuana and tobacco, not just marijuana. I'm not going to argue that smoking marijuana won't cause lung cancer, simply because inhaling burning plant matter really isn't the healthiest thing around. What I have yet to see though, is studies linking cancer with non-smoking methods of consumption (like vaporization or edibles).

As for the psychosis link, has there been any evidence that it could cause it in people who don't already have a predisposition to it, because that'd be interesting. As it stands, every study I've seen (and mind you, this is my field of study we're talking here) has only been able to conclude that it may trigger schizophrenia in people already predisposed to it through genetic factors. I have yet to see a study (well, a study that wasn't ludicrously poorly-designed) that showed that cannabis consumption could trigger schizophrenia (or indeed, any permanent forms of psychosis) in otherwise healthy people.

I will concede there is a correlation between marijuana use (as well as alcohol use) and schizophrenia, but I have yet to see any evidence that it is causal. People tend to jump to the conclusion that it causes schizophrenia without even considering that people smoke or drink because they're ill.

 

[Zephyr]

Even though that is a shop, one of my e-buddies who works in a CA dispensary actually recently came out with packs of joints, complete with professional-looking cases and tubes, as a new product. I know of nobody who could possibly smoke the whole thing in a day without getting crazy sick.

 

[Zephyr]

Tell me DarkSun, should my buddy Joe have been thrown into jail like many other people here for smoking?

Even if marijuana was this demon drug that gives people schizophrenia, why is it worth it to make it illegal? People will still easily get it (until earlier this march, I could get it easier than beer) and the Dutch have shown that legalizing it will not increase usage, while taking money out of criminal hands. Even if it were entirely untaxed, our justice system would save money by not arresting and jailing smokers, and we could redirect those resources to crimes such as human trafficking or gang violence. What good is it to throw smokers in jail for something they are only doing to themselves?

 

[DarkSun]

Every marijuana smoker in the study also smoked tobacco. It is testing the combination of marijuana and tobacco, not just marijuana. I'm not going to argue that smoking marijuana won't cause lung cancer, simply because inhaling burning plant matter really isn't the healthiest thing around. What I have yet to see though, is studies linking cancer with non-smoking methods of consumption (like vaporization or edibles).

No, no. They took into account the fact that all of the marijuana smokers were also using tobacco by statistically removing the likelihood that tobacco is the cause. Re-read it.

Besides, you completely ignored the other studies I posted which supported the first one.

And isn't it easier to over-dose on THC in a tea broth or when you eat it?

As for the psychosis link, has there been any evidence that it could cause it in people who don't already have a predisposition to it, because that'd be interesting. As it stands, every study I've seen (and mind you, this is my field of study we're talking here) has only been able to conclude that it may trigger schizophrenia in people already predisposed to it through genetic factors. I have yet to see a study (well, a study that wasn't ludicrously poorly-designed) that showed that cannabis consumption could trigger schizophrenia (or indeed, any permanent forms of psychosis) in otherwise healthy people.

There is also a link between marijuana use and depression and mental illness in general, so it's not only schizophrenia.

Since one in four people already have some form of disposition to mental illness, it is no minority of people who could potentially be harmed by marijuana use. Actually, 75,000,000 people in the US alone could be affected negatively.

And there has also been a link found between mental illness and adolescent use of marijuana. If marijuana is one day treated like cigarettes by younger people, then that would not be a good thing for society. I posted a few studies like this up there, I hope you didn't miss them.

I will concede there is a correlation between marijuana use (as well as alcohol use) and schizophrenia, but I have yet to see any evidence that it is causal. People tend to jump to the conclusion that it causes schizophrenia without even considering that people smoke or drink because they're ill.

There have also been studies which show that marijuana use does worsen pre-existing mental illnesses. So even if some people are self-medicating, their condition might not be helped in the long-run.

Do I need to find a citation for this as well? I posted a blog earlier where several people had made sentiments which supported what I'm saying. If you like, I can go and get it.

 

[DarkSun]

Tell me DarkSun, should my buddy Joe have been thrown into jail like many other people here for smoking?

Even if marijuana was this demon drug that gives people schizophrenia, why is it worth it to make it illegal? People will still easily get it (until earlier this march, I could get it easier than beer) and the Dutch have shown that legalizing it will not increase usage, while taking money out of criminal hands. Even if it were entirely untaxed, our justice system would save money by not arresting and jailing smokers, and we could redirect those resources to crimes such as human trafficking or gang violence. What good is it to throw smokers in jail for something they are only doing to themselves?

Because making it legal is defeatism. Giving up on something just because it isn't working very well does sound plausible at surface-level, but these laws are in place for peoples' benefit, and even if the laws are being ignored by some, removing the laws altogether is akin to giving up on the people for which they were made.

And the Dutch have only had marijuana legal for a little while, haven't they? If, after forty years, the same proportion of people smoke marijuana, then we'll talk.

 

[Zephyr]

No, no. They took into account the fact that all of the marijuana smokers were also using tobacco by statistically removing the likelihood that tobacco is the cause. Re-read it.

Besides, you completely ignored the other studies I posted which supported the first one.

The first study still falls on its face when you consider that both subject pools smoked tobacco. When you account for that factor, there's still the issue of the fact that sending burning plant matter into your throat is not a good idea. I'm not trying to argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer. I'm just saying that the studies are using some pretty pathetic samples. All it can show is that if you smoke both tobacco and marijuana you may have an increased risk of lung cancer. It would be dishonest for it to claim that for just marijuana (though I agree that smoking marijuana probably causes cancer. Good thing I don't smoke).

The second is also saying something obvious: the longer you hold smoke in your lungs, the more likely bad stuff will happen.

The third study says that smoking may cause cancer. No ****. That has nothing to do with the psychoactive components of cannabis and everything to do with the fact that you just lit paper and plant matter on fire and breathed it in.

The fourth study just states that THC may affect BDNF levels. Its data has nothing to do with schizophrenia directly. It's also ignoring the fact that multiple cannabinoids in the plant interact with each other. Marijuana is more than just THC.

The last study says that you shouldn't take psychoactive substances while your brain is still forming. I'm not going to argue to the contrary, because that's just common sense.

And isn't it easier to over-dose on THC in a tea broth or when you eat it?

First, THC isn't soluble in water, so good luck making a tea, unless you like your tea very buttery. And it depends on what you mean by overdose. You can not die from too much THC, not practically anyways. You'd need to consume your body weight a few times over for that. How do you define an overdose of THC?

There is also a link between marijuana use and depression and mental illness in general, so it's not only schizophrenia.

And there are studies showing that it alleviates the symptoms as well.

Since one in four people already have some form of disposition to mental illness, it is no minority of people who could potentially be harmed by marijuana use. Actually, 75,000,000 people in the US alone could be affected negatively.

Alcohol use is also correlated with mental illness, as are many other legal objects.

And there has also been a link found between mental illness and adolescent use of marijuana. If marijuana is one day treated like cigarettes by younger people, then that would not be a good thing for society. I posted a few studies like this up there, I hope you didn't miss them.

I don't disagree, and children should not smoke marijuana or tobacco, nor drink alcohol, because obviously they all harm a child's development. To ban cannabis while keeping these legal is hypocritical.

There have also been studies which show that marijuana use does worsen pre-existing mental illnesses. So even if some people are self-medicating, their condition might not be helped in the long-run.

So there are studies going both ways.

Do I need to find a citation for this as well? I posted a blog earlier where several people had made sentiments which supported what I'm saying. If you like, I can go and get it.

Blogs can say anything. I can make a blog supporting the idea that injecting heroin will cure cancer, but it would be meaningless.

 

[Zephyr]

Because making it legal is defeatism. Giving up on something just because it isn't working very well does sound plausible at surface-level, but these laws are in place for peoples' benefit, and even if the laws are being ignored by some, removing the laws altogether is akin to giving up on the people for which they were made.

And the Dutch have only had marijuana legal for a little while, haven't they? If, after forty years, the same proportion of people smoke marijuana, then we'll talk.

You're assuming that the laws are moral in the first place. And what do you expect, there to be some major increase in marijuana usage in the Netherlands for no reason? The numbers have gone down. What makes you think they will miraculously increase again?

 

[Sententia]

 

[Zephyr]

Duke Nukem Forever coming out? XKCD being consistently rather than creepy with the occasional witgasm? It'll never happen!