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Left handedness comparable to homosexuality?

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
well, is it?

at one time, people thougth it was wrong to be left handed. could homosexuality be like so? i mean, some people are bisexuals, some people are ambidexterous.

are the factors that determine if we are right handed or left handed be similair to those that contribute to whether we are born gay or straight?
 
On the one hand (pun intended) I see what you're saying here Gerani. Then again, I'm left-handed, but if I really wanted to I could stop writing with my left hand and start writing with my right hand. Homosexuals can't 'switch' any more than heterosexuals can, I would imagine.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
A while back, I taught myself to write with my left hand, so now I'm ambidexterous.

However, as good as I may get, I will always write better with my right hand.

No one is born ambidexterous of course, you are either right handed or left. I don't think this is determined by genetics, but rather by the way your brain personally operates. What makes a baby grab something with her left hand rather than right?

Homosexuality is like this in most cases. Lots of people are born with it and can't help it because it's based on how they think....homosexuality is different though, in that it's rooted in mutation of sexual instinct I think....then again, which hand a baby chooses to favor could also be said to be reliant on instinct.

So like you were saying Mr. Spinkles, if you wanted, you could stop writing with your left and and pick up the right, but you will always have more natural ability in your left hand. Likewise, a homosexual could very well stop being homosexual (in practice) and practice a heterosexual lifestyle, but they will always prefer the homosexual lifestyle in the back of their minds.
 

dolly

Member
No, I'm not sure at all. Can they?

I seriously doubt. From person experience, but also because there is only one study which claims to have successfully changed homosexuals into heterosexuals, and that study has many holes - for example, they didn't make sure that only homosexuals, rather than bisexuals, were in the study (they also didn't really check on the people after the study (only one or two phone calls, etc), and some of the people lied (they had a hom relationship later on after they claimed to be "cured," etc). Even then, they admitted that a very, very, very, very small percentage would be able to change and not necessarily forever. This makes more sense if you consider the small percentage of confused bis who were probably in that study.


So no, I would say that they can't.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Aside from the external morphology and the reproductive orgams internally, there are differences between males and females. Some of these, brain structure and clicking in the ear come to my mind (without my source) as significantly shared between those who are oriented to a "target" sex (women and gays find men appealing - males and lesbians orient sexualy to women). That has been shown in many studies and suggests strongly a genetic component to orientation.

One study (Hamer-Pattatucci) sought to prove that one particular gene was responsible. Although major news at the time, it was found the sudy was flawed and not borne out by simular, better conducted studies. The thinking today is that several genes paly a role and are dependant on whether they are expressed or not. For example, there are genes that initiate the expression of another and other genes that place limits of the one being expressed (if A is the gene - A1 initiates it, A2 controls it). Now, that is three genes involved and those three may be part of a group of other triumvirates that determine orientation.

-pah-
 

Pah

Uber all member
dolly said:
I seriously doubt. From person experience, but also because there is only one study which claims to have successfully changed homosexuals into heterosexuals, and that study has many holes - for example, they didn't make sure that only homosexuals, rather than bisexuals, were in the study (they also didn't really check on the people after the study (only one or two phone calls, etc), and some of the people lied (they had a hom relationship later on after they claimed to be "cured," etc). Even then, they admitted that a very, very, very, very small percentage would be able to change and not necessarily forever. This makes more sense if you consider the small percentage of confused bis who were probably in that study.


So no, I would say that they can't.

Studies of Reparative and Simular Therapies, An Overview

The cite confirms what Dolly has said.

Details of these studies may be found here

A critique of Dr. Spitzers study may be found here

-pah-
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Speaking of hands and homosexuality, have you heard the study of hands. On the left hand homosexuals supposedly have a shorter index finger, than ring finger. I think there will be a time when homosexuality is accepted and not thought as wrong. It will not be the "norm" the same as being lefthand is not the "norm." That does not mean that either one are abnormal.
 
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Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Lightkeeper said:
Speaking of hands and homosexuality, have you heard the study of hands. On the left hand homosexuals supposedly have a shorter index finger, than ring finger.
Of heard of that too. Don't know how true it is in general, but it's true for me. ;)
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Scientists used to think that left-handedness was genetic, but in 20% of identical twins, one is left-handed and the other right-handed. Some think it is determined by what side of your brain you use more. Lefties are generally right-brained. Most children tend to develop a preference for one hand over the other at about the same time that their central nervous system is maturing. The two processes may be linked. Some think that right-handedness is the default, but a stressful birth might switch the preference. Twins, children born to smokers and children born to women over thirtyare more likely to be left-handed, which may suggest stressful births affect the preference.

Egyptian artwork displays Egyptians as right-handed and enemies as left-handed. Greeks believed women (the "lesser sex") sat on the left side of the womb during pregnancy. The Latin word for "left" was "sinister." "Right" was "dexter," which means skillful or adroit. Ambidextrous means, literally, "right-handed with both hands."

Lefties are more likely to be at the extreme ends of intelligence. A higher proportion of mentally retarded people are left-handed, as are people with IQs over 140.

Homosexuality is something that will never be perfectly defined, because people will believe what they want, despite all the evidence in the world stacked against them. The fact is their is no evidence that exists that suggests that homosexuality has any connection to genetics. Nothing about behavior or preference can be traced to genetics or DNA. Some studies suggest, and hint at, and say, "Maybe," or "It's possible that," or "It is likely that," but no one can say with any degree of certainty that genes play any role in behavior.

People can change. I know many people (personally) that have gone one way or the other. People can convince themselves of whatever they want. If we could not do anything about our sexual urges then pederasty and incest would be legal. Society places boundaries where it will, and our society is only loosening it's standards. The emergence of "political correctness" has forced society to respect and admire those that are different. That's all and good, but the people who's behavior detracts from society are also getting their fifteen minutes, and it's taking its toll.

Homosexuality is abnormal. The function of our sexual drive and our sexual organs is procreation. Homosexuality circumvents that and betrays the purpose of sex. Granted that sex is not only for the purpose of procreation, our physical attraction to members of the opposite sex is.

Almost every man that lives would be lying if he said he has never fantasized for at least a second about a homosexual encounter. Those urges sneak up on people sometimes. Some people entertain those urges. Some people feel disgusted later and some don't. Does having those urges make you gay? Does acting upon those urges make you gay? What if you go for fifteen years with a desire to have a homosexual relationship but you never get around to it? Are you gay?
 
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Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
I have often wondered if the people who are most homophobic are actually gay. Psychologists long ago decided that homosexuality is not a sickness. It may not be the "norm" but it is not abnormal. I do believe that it will be accepted one day.
 

Pah

Uber all member
dan said:
Homosexuality is abnormal. The function of our sexual drive and our sexual organs is procreation. Homosexuality circumvents that and betrays the purpose of sex. Granted that sex is not only for the purpose of procreation, our physical attraction to members of the opposite sex is.

Abnormal seems to be a biased word. While homosexuality it not the "marjority" or "mean" orientation it is certianly within the "norm" of nature's expression of sexuality.

There is no basis (other than, perhaps, a scriptural one) to think that sex is only for procreation. Sex provides pleasure and is used to cement social bonds as well as to propogate. It is shown by the absence of a chance for fertility, in all of the animal kingdom, when sex is practised. To disparage a "drive" for pleasure and raise "procreation" to a higher purpose fails to recognize the evolutionary aspect of sex. In that context, homosexuality forefills an evolutionary role
.

Almost every man that lives would be lying if he said he has never fantasized for at least a second about a homosexual encounter. Those urges sneak up on people sometimes. Some people entertain those urges. Some people feel disgusted later and some don't. Does having those urges make you gay? Does acting upon those urges make you gay? What if you go for fifteen years with a desire to have a homosexual relationship but you never get around to it? Are you gay?

Yes, or lesbian if you are female. A celibate priest, monk or nun is still oriented to a particular gender. But consideration for claiming bisexual would be appropiate if the desire extends to both genders.

-pah-


Dan - please turn on your Private Messaging -pah-
 

Pah

Uber all member
Lightkeeper said:
I have often wondered if the people who are most homophobic are actually gay. Psychologists long ago decided that homosexuality is not a sickness. It may not be the "norm" but it is not abnormal. I do believe that it will be accepted one day.

It would be unkind to label all those that oppose homosexuality as being homophobic. But combined with a dogmatic position of faith and just the plain ol' morality of the Victorian era, there might be a difficulty in reconciling normal feelings. Then there might be a vigorious denial of what is confusedly considered internal "evil". This may be expressed in a denial to others for that which is desired to be purged from one's self.

But some of us have overcome that and I'm sure there are many in our membership that don't have this problem.

-pah-
 
I kind of agree with dan on this...people have a choice in the matter. The lines between gay and straight, man and woman are pretty grey...I think everyone, ultimately, is a blend. Lots of male and female heterosexuals have had gay experiences, and lots of male and female homosexuals have had straight experiences. I don't think that everyone is totally one or the other. Also, I think he is accurate in saying that homosexuality, like left-handedness, is abnormal....although a different term might be preferred if that word has a negative (rather than neutral) connotation.

Still, I disagree with dan that homosexuality is bad or morally wrong.
 

dolly

Member
In that context, homosexuality forefills an evolutionary role.

Also in the context that it increases the survival rate of offspring birthed by the hets of that group.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Mr_Spinkles said:
I kind of agree with dan on this...people have a choice in the matter. The lines between gay and straight, man and woman are pretty grey...I think everyone, ultimately, is a blend. Lots of male and female heterosexuals have had gay experiences, and lots of male and female homosexuals have had straight experiences. I don't think that everyone is totally one or the other. Also, I think he is accurate in saying that homosexuality, like left-handedness, is abnormal....although a different term might be preferred if that word has a negative (rather than neutral) connotation.

Still, I disagree with dan that homosexuality is bad or morally wrong.

I would agree if we were only speaking of experience and activity. But we (at least I am) talking about a drive. I see four categories of orientation - asexual, bisexual, intersexual and intrasexual, one of which may be termed predominate. I guess that's the problem with labels when there is a range.

-pah-
 

Pah

Uber all member
dolly said:
Also in the context [pah: forefilling an evolutionary role] that it increases the survival rate of offspring birthed by the hets of that group.

It certainly can not be called a deleterious trait for it would have been "bred out" long ago in the whole animal world.

-pah-
 
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