LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Wandered Off]

Romans 5 teaches that all humanity is condemned in Adam.

Yes, the Bible has contradictory teachings with regards to "sins of the fathers."

Therefore, we are born into this world already in enmity and condemation with God, since Adam is our representative.

The Bible is clearly wrong about this too. Enmity is a choice, and newborns have no capacity for such a choice. Adam is certainly not my representative.

I think the issue that you may have is in regards to the actual numbers the God will save through Christ. You probably are saying that it's not fair is God predetermines to save some and not all sinners.

While I don't like that idea either, this was not the argument I was making.

Do you want to be a vessel of His justice or His mercy and grace?

God has no need for vessels, IMO.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Yes, the Bible has contradictory teachings with regards to "sins of the fathers."

The Bible is clearly wrong about this too. Enmity is a choice, and newborns have no capacity for such a choice. Adam is certainly not my representative.

While I don't like that idea either, this was not the argument I was making.

God has no need for vessels, IMO.

If I understand your reasoning and posting, you're argument is against the Bible itself, and not my understanding of it?

 

[Wandered Off]

If I understand your reasoning and posting, you're argument is against the Bible itself, and not my understanding of it?

Well, my question in 1530 could be construed as an argument against a Calvinist understanding, which I believe you have. Subsequent arguments point to conflicting messages within the Bible, so I would argue both for and against.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The Bible is clearly wrong about this too. Enmity is a choice, and newborns have no capacity for such a choice. Adam is certainly not my representative.

Has Adam become a literal man now? I was talking with a bunch of christians here on this forum who told me that Adam wasn't a real person and another who suggested that Adam reffered to a community of people whatever that means).......:sarcastic

 

[Wandered Off]

Has Adam become a literal man now? I was talking with a bunch of christians here on this forum who told me that Adam wasn't a real person and another who suggested that Adam reffered to a community of people whatever that means).......:sarcastic

Depends on whom you ask, I guess. I certainly don't think so, but I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that FH was thinking of a literal dude when he said Adam was our "representative."

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Has Adam become a literal man now? I was talking with a bunch of christians here on this forum who told me that Adam wasn't a real person and another who suggested that Adam reffered to a community of people whatever that means).......:sarcastic

You have a bunch of liberal Christians on this site....LOL! For those who reject a literal Adam, do you also reject the literal 2nd Adam (Rom 5).

 

[Fish-Hunter]

What happened to the Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ community on this site? Does silence mean that debating Mormon doctrine in the light of Scripture alone is not a good thing? :slap:

 

[McBell]

What happened to the Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ community on this site? Does silence mean that debating Mormon doctrine in the light of Scripture alone is not a good thing? :slap:

perhaps if you were to actually argue with Scripture alone....

 

[Fish-Hunter]

perhaps if you were to actually argue with Scripture alone....

I am convinced beyond a doubt that you are an undercover Mormon. Some things never seem to change. As I told you many times, sola scriptura does not mean that only scripture is read, studied, and used in understanding and explaining truth. Sola Scriptura means that the Holy Bible is the final authority pertaining to Faith and practice.

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine. Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the Reformers and is a formal principle of Protestantism today.

 

[McBell]

I am convinced beyond a doubt that you are an undercover Mormon. Some things never seem to change. As I told you many times, sola scriptura does not mean that only scripture is read, studied, and used in understanding and explaining truth. Sola Scriptura means that the Holy Bible is the final authority pertaining to Faith and practice.

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine. Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the Reformers and is a formal principle of Protestantism today.

You are too easily impressed with yourself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am convinced beyond a doubt that you are an undercover Mormon. Some things never seem to change. As I told you many times, sola scriptura does not mean that only scripture is read, studied, and used in understanding and explaining truth. Sola Scriptura means that the Holy Bible is the final authority pertaining to Faith and practice.

Actually, I think that's Prima Scriptura. Sola Scriptura doesn't just imply that the Bible is the final authority, it implies that it is the only authority.

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating,

How is the Bible self-authenticating?

clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader,

Debatable, but I'll skip this for now.

its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"),

This is logically impossible. For example: where in the Bible does it explicitly state that "take care of my sheep" (John 21:16) is a metaphor meaning "minister to my human followers" and shouldn't be taken literally to mean "engage in farming and animal husbandry"?

Using Scripture to interpret Scripture makes no sense. It's like saying that the Ikea desk itself is the instruction manual for its assembly.

Anything we read and comprehend depends on our own knowledge of what words mean and what they can describe. Everything we take in is coloured by our prior knowledge and our preconceptions. The Bible is not immune to this effect.

and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

I think this conclusion depends on the other claims of Sola Scriptura being true, and as I pointed out above, I don't think they all can be true. Also, doesn't this claim of "final authority" remove the possibility of continual work and guidance of the Holy Spirit from the equation?

On top of this, consider John 21:25:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

When even the Bible itself states that it does not contain all the acts of Christ, how can it be considered to be a "final authority" on the Christian religion?

 

[Wandered Off]

God's written word is self-authenticating

I, too, am self-authenticating.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

You are too easily impressed with yourself.

I'm sorry that I seem to boast with pride. I am just boasting that I know the One true God through the Biblical Jesus Christ. My confidence is in God as He reveals Himself through the Holy Bible. I am nothing but a wretched wicked sinner deserving of the eternal wrath of God. But in God's mercy and amazing undeserving grace, He has chose to forgive me in Christ....to the praise of His glorious grace.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I, too, am self-authenticating.

Please share your thoughts... maybe "I think therefore I am"? Do you ever consider how insignificant we are as individuals. I was watching a special on China last night. That country has 1.3 billion people. The world has about 6.5 billion people. Now consider all of the people who have lived and died in past generations. So, why are we here? If there is no God, why not drink, eat and be merry through a hedonistic lifestyle, because our life is but a vapor? Does hedonism give you everlasting joy and pleasure? Today we may live, and tomorrow we could die?

 

[Halcyon]

I'm sorry that I seem to boast with pride. I am just boasting that I know the One true God through the Biblical Jesus Christ. My confidence is in God as He reveals Himself through the Holy Bible. I am nothing but a wretched wicked sinner deserving of the eternal wrath of God. But in God's mercy and amazing undeserving grace, He has chose to forgive me in Christ....to the praise of His glorious grace.

Out of interest, how much do you know about how the Christian Bible was created?

For example, could you tell me who chose the four gospels now in the NT, and for what reasons? Could you name those of Paul's epistles that weren't included?
Can you tell me the difference between Timothy 1, Timothy 2, Titus, Hebrews and the rest of Paul's epistles?
Do you know why the Apocalypse of John was included despite protest?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Out of interest, how much do you know about how the Christian Bible was created?

For example, could you tell me who chose the four gospels now in the NT, and for what reasons? Could you name those of Paul's epistles that weren't included?
Can you tell me the difference between Timothy 1, Timothy 2, Titus, Hebrews and the rest of Paul's epistles?
Do you know why the Apocalypse of John was included despite protest?

It is impossible for those in the flesh to receive the Holy Bible as the Word of God. It is only by the Spirit of God that someone is able to receive the Bible as the Word of God. A sign of being an elect of God is receiving the Holy Bible as the Word of God. A sign of being a non-elect (reprobate) is to reject the Bible as the Word of God. It is a circular argument. But, thanks for the question. I think Buddha died and was never resurrected from the dead to prove me wrong. In all of human history, the only historical figure who claim to rise from the dead and have millions believe Him is the historical Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

 

[Apex]

It is impossible for those in the flesh to receive the Holy Bible as the Word of God. It is only by the Spirit of God that someone is able to receive the Bible as the Word of God. But, thanks for the question.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Do we have an award for "Best attempt at dodging the question"? Because this post should win it.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Do we have an award for "Best attempt at dodging the question"? Because this post should win it.

Right on my friend, you are the first LDS Representative to post in quite awhile! So, why do you belief in the LDS version of God? Did you convert later in life, or were you raised in the Mormon Faith?

 

[McBell]

Right on my friend, you are the first LDS Representative to post in quite awhile! So, why do you belief in the LDS version of God? Did you convert later in life, or were you raised in the Mormon Faith?

And here we see you going out of your way to avoid the questions asked earlier.
Just for a recap:

For example, could you tell me who chose the four gospels now in the NT, and for what reasons?
Could you name those of Paul's epistles that weren't included?
Can you tell me the difference between Timothy 1, Timothy 2, Titus, Hebrews and the rest of Paul's epistles?
Do you know why the Apocalypse of John was included despite protest?
​

Rather embarrassing, don't you think, that with all your talk and preaching, you cannot even answer these simple questions?

Now one has to wonder the why you cannot answer...
I flat out say that you just do not know the answer.
Prove me wrong.
I dare you.

 

[McBell]

I'm sorry that I seem to boast with pride. I am just boasting that I know the One true God through the Biblical Jesus Christ. My confidence is in God as He reveals Himself through the Holy Bible. I am nothing but a wretched wicked sinner deserving of the eternal wrath of God. But in God's mercy and amazing undeserving grace, He has chose to forgive me in Christ....to the praise of His glorious grace.

this ain't sunday.....