Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses

[Hockeycowboy]

Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses



The article, which is well worth reading in it's entirety, is based on interviews with over 100 people who grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education in such a way that the child is handicapped when pursuing his or her dreams? Note: I'm not talking about a legal right here, but instead, a moral right.

If you think parents and/or religious leaders have a moral right to limit a child's education, do you also believe the government possesses the same right? If not, why not?

"Discouraging" higher education is a far cry from establishing a "right to limit" it.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The penny has just dropped!
I saw a thread about Depressed Teens and suicide levels and posted in it, referring to this thread.
I now realise that the 'dep[ressed teens;' thread is actually answering this one in a way.

I would like to copy my post from that thread diectly on to this one, I just hope that is allowed.

Around here JW youths are very busy industrious folk who seem to be very contented and happy, and, ;'yes', they do seem to be involved more with Trades than Professions, but that might be a bright move, given the encroachment of IT?

Here was my post:-

Interestingly, in another thread, the OP shows evidence that Jehovah Witness children achieve less academically than others, with a lower undergraduate degree success ratio.

I can tell you that JW youth in my area are contented, happy, busy, positive-thinking people, mostly employed in Trades such as electrical, plumbing, roofing., building, plastering, gardening work which fits with a less pressured academic life, resulting in a more profitable and happy existence in trades which might not suffer so much from IT incursion.

And, 'NO', I am not a JW, but an observer.
If you want your children to be successful offer support and assistance, and let them find their own academic level...... AND BE PROUD OF THEM.

I hope this is true, because over here the happiness and industriousness is a ruse literally and intentionally developed to represent their religion in a positive light. But under the surface there is a ton of secrecy, isolationism and loneliness. Kids berated for development of any meaningful relationships outside the church, gays and lesbians expulsed and disowned, community involvement and charitability rejected as being unimportant worldly concerns. Just lots of windowless congregation halls, meetings and bible studies and 'door-to-door' hours per week logs throughout the week, menial jobs and the same 50 or so people waiting and hoping for the world to end.

 

[sayak83]

Hmmmm....did no one ever think to ask a JW about this issue instead of getting second hand stories from the disgruntled ones who felt like they were missing out on something wonderful?

You'd think that JW's were some sort of anti-education dumbos who want to keep their kids in ignorance. The two leading stories in that article are not the whole story.....by a long shot.



Do you know the difference between not being "encouraged" to do something and being "forbidden" to do it?

The children of Jehovah's Witnesses are not forced to abandon hopes for a higher education.....it is, after all left to the children when they are of age to make their own decisions about their education and their spiritual choices. Being raised as a JW does not guarantee that the child will choose the same spiritual path as their parents. But at the same time, parents are responsible for educating their children about the ever present dangers that are waiting for them out there in the world.

The reasons why university education is not encouraged is mainly because of the moral and spiritual climate that are common at such schools of higher learning. Can anyone doubt the validity of this statement? For our children, who are raised with high moral standards, the immoral activities that take place on campuses is a real moral danger. The world has lost its moral compass.

As for science being the reason why some might reject God and creation.....I can only think that those are the people who might have rejected him anyway. Many among our brotherhood are educated in different branches of science and medicine, having achieved their degrees before becoming Jehovah's Witnesses. There are also a lot of tradesmen in our ranks, so tertiary education is by no means frowned upon. Online courses are also a good way to gain a degree in a chosen field.

But higher education never leads to happiness when all it does is fuel a desire for a materialistic lifestyle. "Things" never make you happy for long.....it becomes a never ending addiction to transient material pursuits that often leads to serious debt and unhappy relationships. It doesn't guarantee a job either. I know many young people who gained university degrees who still haven't found work in their chosen field. Why do so many people think a higher education is so special?

We prefer the Bible's counsel to be 'content with the present things'....not continually looking for the next fad or fashion or addiction to waste money on. We also prefer the Bible's recommendation to live a simple life.....being materially poor but spiritually rich engenders a sense of satisfaction in life that no material things can equal. We would rather clean offices and windows and have time to serve God, than slaving for a master who can never be satisfied.



What makes you think that we don't care about the education of our children? It is the law that they must be educated, so we encourage our children to make the most of their school years and use that knowledge to serve a better 'boss'. The wages he pays can't be matched by any human employer, and he has fringe benefits that most people would die for.

These are the sorts of articles that the gullible swallow because they can't be bothered to find out the actual truth.

Thanks to @SomeRandom for putting some perspective on this topic.

In my religious upbringing, getting a good college level education (or business proficiency as the case may be) as well as having good morals, is more important than believing in God. A young person's task in his teen and young adult years is to focus on learning. God, theology etc. is after. The intellect well-honed by learning and the heart well-honed by ethical education, builds the kind of person who is capable of forming correct beliefs and understanding them appropriately regarding both spiritual and material realm and hence can act for the good of themselves and the world. Without such a well trained mind and heart, the possibility of falling prey to delusions and false beliefs is near certain.

This also leads to material prosperity of course.
How income varies among U.S. religious groups

 

[oldbadger]

I hope this is true, because over here the happiness and industriousness is a ruse literally and intentionally developed to represent their religion in a positive light. But under the surface there is a ton of secrecy, isolationism and loneliness. Kids berated for development of any meaningful relationships outside the church, gays and lesbians expulsed and disowned, community involvement and charitability rejected as being unimportant worldly concerns. Just lots of windowless congregation halls, meetings and bible studies and 'door-to-door' hours per week logs throughout the week, menial jobs and the same 50 or so people waiting and hoping for the world to end.

...you hope it's true.....?
I hope that's true.
Now, just how do you know about JW ruses, secrecy, isolationism, loneliness, etc etc, and why did you decide to chuck the anti-gay, anti-lesbianism, stuff into a debate about youth education and JW achievement?

I'm guessing that you are either an estranged JW or that you have been close to JWs for an extended period of time, Otherwise, how do you personally know about JW youth so closely?

I know about JWs because a JW couple have visited me for over 25 years now. We debate deeply about many things to do with our lives and beliefs, and I know them. But we debate very diplomatically because our friendship has becpme more important than our tenets.

I know about the JW youth because I have spent hours talking with them. After retiring in 2009 I took a part-time job carpet-cleaning in my friend's company, and I cleaned the JW Kingdom Hall carpets, very big carpets, twice a year until 2015. There are hundreds of chairs in a Kingdom Hall, and several young people would attend to move them during each cleaning session. We would talk. I was always most impressed. Have you talked with JW youth?

Further to that, many of my neighbours, mostly pagans like me, prefer to pay JWs to lay drives, fix gutters, build extensions, paint walls, fit electrical circuits etc, and also buy their cars and have them serviced.... all by JWs, and they tell me that they would hire no others, because JWs have a reputation for being totally honest, around here. I don't know about your area.

I know about JWs being anti-gay..... this is a thread about education.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Do you know the difference between not being "encouraged" to do something and being "forbidden" to do it?

This statement is admission that you don't encourage your children to seek higher education. I understand you're scared out of your mind at the thought of what goes on at college campuses - fine. But you still don't encourage ongoing education. You are saying so right here.

Many among our brotherhood are educated in different branches of science and medicine, having achieved their degrees before becoming Jehovah's Witnesses.

You laud these things and appear to take pride in these members... and yet you admit that they got the educations that put them in these important positions BEFORE becoming JWs. To want doctors and scientists among your ranks, and yet fail to encourage higher learning? Interesting strategy.

Online courses are also a good way to gain a degree in a chosen field.

Because there's no questionable moral content online, that's for sure.

But higher education never leads to happiness when all it does is fuel a desire for a materialistic lifestyle. "Things" never make you happy for long.....it becomes a never ending addiction to transient material pursuits that often leads to serious debt and unhappy relationships.

This is you not trusting the children of you ranks to make the right choices. This is you worrying that what you teach in your religion isn't strong enough to hold sway. This is you being insecure, unsure of your belief set. Do you seriously think your children can't sense this? When they realize this level of insecurity, could that, perhaps, be a reason why they might seek other answers? "Succumb" to "worldly" endeavors?

It doesn't guarantee a job either. I know many young people who gained university degrees who still haven't found work in their chosen field. Why do so many people think a higher education is so special?

Education itself is special. Very much more special than a great many "beliefs".

We also prefer the Bible's recommendation to live a simple life.....being materially poor but spiritually rich engenders a sense of satisfaction in life that no material things can equal.

You seem to like to equate education with seeking high amounts of monetary compensation. Why is higher education mostly about this for you?

What makes you think that we don't care about the education of our children?

The above sentence precedes this:

It is the law that they must be educated

Am I the only one detecting irony here? What if education wasn't legislated?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

and why did you decide to chuck the anti-gay, anti-lesbianism, stuff into a debate about youth education and JW achievement?

Because it's a dark side of the JW collective that often gets brushed under the rug a lot, imo. Maybe not what the OP was talking about, but adding to an overall environment of conformity and isolationism I feel permeates most if not all the congregations I've ever been to.

I'm guessing that you are either an estranged JW or that you have been close to JWs for an extended period of time, Otherwise, how do you personally know about JW youth so closely?

The latter. I studied with JWs for a number of years (never baptized), in three different congregations in two states, and also have close friends who are or were part of the organization.

I know about JWs because a JW couple have visited me for over 25 years now. We debate deeply about many things to do with our lives and beliefs, and I know them. But we debate very diplomatically because our friendship has becpme more important than our tenets.

After I decided to stop studying and stop attending meetings I only had a very few number of people who didn't lose touch with me. And most of them were admittedly much more liberal in their beliefs than the norm (or at least main-line JW doctrine.)

I know about the JW youth because I have spent hours talking with them. After retiring in 2009 I took a part-time job carpet-cleaning in my friend's company, and I cleaned the JW Kingdom Hall carpets, very big carpets, twice a year until 2015. There are hundreds of chairs in a Kingdom Hall, and several young people would attend to move them during each cleaning session. We would talk. I was always most impressed. Have you talked with JW youth?

Yes, both as an insider and an outsider. During their private and public moments. And there's a difference, in my experience. A front that is meant to impress, to proselytize to outsiders. When I was going, everyone carried Watchtower and Awake literature and looked for times and places they could leave them with people, and logged it, and any door-to-door hours. Some even had part-time or full-time 'jobs' called Pioneer positions where they have a literal quota of literature and hours they must fulfill to keep the position. Being a JW, in my experience, teaches you to be a very good salesperson. Not necessarily a good person.

Further to that, many of my neighbours, mostly pagans like me, prefer to pay JWs to lay drives, fix gutters, build extensions, paint walls, fit electrical circuits etc, and also buy their cars and have them serviced.... all by JWs, and they tell me that they would hire no others, because JWs have a reputation for being totally honest, around here. I don't know about your area.

We have more LDS than JWs here, as well as Amish communities, fulfilling the same tasks with the same sort of reputation. I'm not saying that JWs can't or won't be the consummate cordial professional. Just that it's a pretty poor representation of what the inside life is, in my experience. And I still have JW friends, don't get me wrong, there is exceptions. But I also have JWs that I stopped associating with because they let their non-JW daughter think that her brother went missing, when really he just wanted to separate from his wife against policy and took off for a while to think on things. They figured letting their daughter think he was missing was better than letting her be in a position to 'tempt him during this fragile time.'

I know about JWs being anti-gay..... this is a thread about education.

Like I said, I'm using it more as an example of the sort of insular nature and closed-off feel kids may have within the organization.

That I think the overall lack of higher learning in JWs is symptomatic of a larger problem of this insular nature.

 

[Deeje]

If I may ask, and I hope you don't think me rude or that I'm trying to criticize your faith. But, if JW children are raised with very high moral standards, why would they be in moral danger in University? Surely such morally grounded and upstanding youths would be able to withstand the pressures of University, especially since Uni age is typically after the rebellious experimental teenage phase (at least in Australia.) By your early 20s you're past the teenage antics and are starting to learn how to adult, how to live on your own and you're starting to really mature at that age.

Thank you so much for your non judgmental tone SomeRandom.

No one is immune to the activities of those around them, least of all young people. The moral climate at universities all by itself is a challenge for those raised to be morally sensitive. There is no morality in today's world....nothing is "sin" to them, so to place our youth in that kind of environment is not something we really want to do. There are other options for education that do not involve being exposed to that level of immorality and filthy language on a daily basis.

Even the High Schools are not a fit environment, which is the reason why so many Witnesses home school their kids. There are fairly strict rules about it here in Australia. The downside of that is that kids are not exposed to that side of the world and do not learn first hand to stand on their own feet spiritually or emotionally. If they get through High School unscathed, then they are doing pretty well. We are realistic though, and no matter how much we want to protect our kids, they have to learn to make their own decisions about everything in life. We just hope that we have provided the right example and given them sound reasons for wanting to stay "clean". (morally and spiritually)

Yes I had me some wild nights, and I'm not exactly mature even now, but it's not like peer pressure affected us the same way it did in High School. We had already figured out our limits and our morals by Uni age. I had many peers who would abstain from alcohol or what have you for religious or other personal reasons. It's not like they were bullied or made fun of or shunned. We were past such immaturity by then.

I have seen some very mature young people of university age, but conversely, some never seem to grow up or learn how to "adult" much before their thirties. It is a very individual thing. Some of this has to do with upbringing and some are mature due to circumstance in their family forcing them to be more responsible than others at an early age.

Our kids are by and large, happy and well educated in many areas, so we do not see them as disadvantaged in any way.
Anyone is welcome to come to our meetings and observe our young ones for themselves. We get many comments from teachers who see our kids as happy, well mannered and well adjusted....eager to learn. The nay-sayers will plant negative ideas for their own reasons, but they are not based on the overall state of affairs in our global brotherhood.

Why Are You Called Jehovah’s Witnesses? | FAQ

For those who might be interested.....

 

[Deeje]

I hope this is true, because over here the happiness and industriousness is a ruse literally and intentionally developed to represent their religion in a positive light. But under the surface there is a ton of secrecy, isolationism and loneliness. Kids berated for development of any meaningful relationships outside the church, gays and lesbians expulsed and disowned, community involvement and charitability rejected as being unimportant worldly concerns. Just lots of windowless congregation halls, meetings and bible studies and 'door-to-door' hours per week logs throughout the week, menial jobs and the same 50 or so people waiting and hoping for the world to end.

I think this post speaks for itself. The negativity is palpable. Is this all you ever saw...or was this all you were ever looking for?

"Under the surface" there is no secrecy.....it is all imagined if you think that our kids are all closet gays or nymphomaniacs.
Give me a break. Not every Witness parent gets it right, but it isn't because we don't get the right training. God has one set of standards that do not change with the times.....we try to uphold them and we make no apology for that.

"Isolationism"? You think its isolationist to try to keep our kids away from bad influences? Would you expose your child to another kid with ebola? We care about the company our children keep...the old saying, "show me your friends, and I'll show you who you are" is not far off the mark. (1 Corinthians 15:33) My own children had friends outside of the Witnesses growing up, but none of them were drop-kicks. Some of them even came to meetings with us. Balance is the key in all things.

"Loneliness"? A lot of people are lonely in this world....it doesn't mean that they have to keep company with undesirables in order to be less lonely.

Our kids are never "disowned"...what a horrible picture you present. I currently have a granddaughter who is disfellowshipped. She left home to lead a very immoral life and ended up pregnant and rejected by the man she was living with.
She came home and is now enjoying her son with very caring grandparents. She is making her way back to her spiritual roots, older and wiser, realizing that the world is somewhere that just chews you up and spits you out. She laments that she did not listen to her parents...it would have saved her a lot of heartache. We all know the story of the Prodigal Son. That is the model. The son was not welcomed home as one who had not changed his ways. The Father in that parable made no attempt to contact his son whilst he was living an immoral life, but once he decided to change his ways, he was welcomed back with open arms, the father even running out to meet him. (Luke 15:11-132)

Our kids are encouraged NOT to form relationships with the opposite sex before they are mature enough to handle them, because of the moral climate in which we live. My own family is testimony to that. Dating is reserved for choosing a marriage mate. We take marriage very seriously. There is no frivolous divorce for us.

"Community and charitable" involvement? We look after our own. Imagine if every church did that?
The best community service we can perform is the one assigned by Jesus Christ.....to tell people about the best government there is....one that will soon take over the reins of world rulership, and give people the best living conditions ever.....under God's Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)

The "windowless" Kingdom Halls are usually found in areas where vandalism is high. It saves having to constantly replace windows.There is nothing sinister in it.....unless you want to manufacture one.

Your completely negative posts here tells us why you never became a JW...and I think we are grateful not to have you in our ranks.
The whining would never stop!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I think this post speaks for itself. The negativity is palpable. Is this all you ever saw...or was this all you were ever looking for?

"Under the surface" there is no secrecy.....it is all imagined if you think that our kids are all closet gays or nymphomaniacs.
Give me a break. Not every Witness parent gets it right, but it isn't because we don't get the right training. God has one set of standards that do not change with the times.....we try to uphold them and we make no apology for that.

"Isolationism"? You think its isolationist to try to keep our kids away from bad influences? Would you expose your child to another kid with ebola? We care about the company our children keep...the old saying, "show me your friends, and I'll show you who you are" is not far off the mark. (1 Corinthians 15:33) My own children had friends outside of the Witnesses growing up, but none of them were drop-kicks. Some of them even came to meetings with us. Balance is the key in all things.

"Loneliness"? A lot of people are lonely in this world....it doesn't mean that they have to keep company with undesirables in order to be less lonely.

Our kids are never "disowned"...what a horrible picture you present. I currently have a granddaughter who is disfellowshipped. She left home to lead a very immoral life and ended up pregnant and rejected by the man she was living with.
She came home and is now enjoying her son with very caring grandparents. She is making her way back to her spiritual roots, older and wiser, realizing that the world is somewhere that just chews you up and spits you out. She laments that she did not listen to her parents...it would have saved her a lot of heartache. We all know the story of the Prodigal Son. That is the model. The son was not welcomed home as one who had not changed his ways. The Father in that parable made no attempt to contact his son whilst he was living an immoral life, but once he decided to change his ways, he was welcomed back with open arms, the father even running out to meet him. (Luke 15:11-132)

Our kids are encouraged NOT to form relationships with the opposite sex before they are mature enough to handle them, because of the moral climate in which we live. My own family is testimony to that. Dating is reserved for choosing a marriage mate. We take marriage very seriously. There is no frivolous divorce for us.

"Community and charitable" involvement? We look after our own. Imagine if every church did that?
The best community service we can perform is the one assigned by Jesus Christ.....to tell people about the best government there is....one that will soon take over the reins of world rulership, and give people the best living conditions ever.....under God's Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)

The "windowless" Kingdom Halls are usually found in areas where vandalism is high. It saves having to constantly replace windows.There is nothing sinister in it.....unless you want to manufacture one.

Your completely negative posts here tells us why you never became a JW...and I think we are grateful not to have you in our ranks.
The whining would never stop!

The only one whining here is you. You keep replying to me because you're defensive and you don't like what I have to say. But all you've really supplied is 'nuh uh!' and 'you must've been a bad JW!'
Once again, sorry Charlie, you don't get to invalidate my experiences just because you don't like them. I have seen JW parents disown gay and lesbian children. I have seen anything outside church doctrine being labeled 'bad influence' which creates myopic tunnel visions, low levels of education, isolation and yeah, teen depression. If you don't like my perspective you'll just have to deal with it.

Incidentally, a lot of churches do look after their own, but also don't limit their charitability to bible bashing their view through the 'non-believers' and actually, you know, step up to helping people in more tangible ways. But I guess that's just too 'wordly.' I can tell you now that I've been to many churches over the years, and while I ultimately wasn't convinced by any of them, I'd sooner go to a Universalist church where they stop pretending they're so oppressed and vandalized (every Kingdom Hall I've been to were in no less affluent areas than your average Presbyterian church), stop worrying about how many hours they're spending trying to talk other people into their halls, and instead open their doors and hearts to their community.

 

[SomeRandom]

Thank you so much for your non judgmental tone SomeRandom.

No one is immune to the activities of those around them, least of all young people. The moral climate at universities all by itself is a challenge for those raised to be morally sensitive. There is no morality in today's world....nothing is "sin" to them, so to place our youth in that kind of environment is not something we really want to do. There are other options for education that do not involve being exposed to that level of immorality and filthy language on a daily basis.

Even the High Schools are not a fit environment, which is the reason why so many Witnesses home school their kids. There are fairly strict rules about it here in Australia. The downside of that is that kids are not exposed to that side of the world and do not learn first hand to stand on their own feet spiritually or emotionally. If they get through High School unscathed, then they are doing pretty well. We are realistic though, and no matter how much we want to protect our kids, they have to learn to make their own decisions about everything in life. We just hope that we have provided the right example and given them sound reasons for wanting to stay "clean". (morally and spiritually)



I have seen some very mature young people of university age, but conversely, some never seem to grow up or learn how to "adult" much before their thirties. It is a very individual thing. Some of this has to do with upbringing and some are mature due to circumstance in their family forcing them to be more responsible than others at an early age.

Our kids are by and large, happy and well educated in many areas, so we do not see them as disadvantaged in any way.
Anyone is welcome to come to our meetings and observe our young ones for themselves. We get many comments from teachers who see our kids as happy, well mannered and well adjusted....eager to learn. The nay-sayers will plant negative ideas for their own reasons, but they are not based on the overall state of affairs in our global brotherhood.

Why Are You Called Jehovah’s Witnesses? | FAQ

For those who might be interested.....

Well, maturity differs, certainly.
I guess I might have a different idea of what is balanced compared to JWs or really anyone who is super religious. Which is fine, everyone has different places where they draw the line, so to speak.

Speaking rather generally, having grown up around the time that Helicopter Parenting was just taking off (no pun intended) I have seen many Flanderised kids (regardless of religion or even lack thereof) and they absolutely fail once they are exposed to Uni or "the world" later in life. So I do appreciate that upbringing certainly has an effect on maturity levels. In any household, in any religion. Shelter the kid too much, they'll just go nuts once they get some freedom. Shelter them too little and they might become cold and too desensitized to care.

How religion comes into the mix is rather more nuanced than saying, well these kids are super religious therefore X happens. One has to also take into consideration the cultural background, societal pressures (both within a specific community and the world at large)parenting styles, how puberty affects the child etc. It's probably a lot more complicated. In saying that though, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that say Bible Belt kids are taught strict creationism or that certain trade jobs are more prevalent in certain religious communities. I mean a common stereotype of Jewish people is that they should become lawyers or doctors to be considered successful. And though I don't like stereotypes, there's usually a bit of truth to them all the same.

 

[sayak83]

I think this post speaks for itself. The negativity is palpable. Is this all you ever saw...or was this all you were ever looking for?

"Under the surface" there is no secrecy.....it is all imagined if you think that our kids are all closet gays or nymphomaniacs.
Give me a break. Not every Witness parent gets it right, but it isn't because we don't get the right training. God has one set of standards that do not change with the times.....we try to uphold them and we make no apology for that.

"Isolationism"? You think its isolationist to try to keep our kids away from bad influences? Would you expose your child to another kid with ebola? We care about the company our children keep...the old saying, "show me your friends, and I'll show you who you are" is not far off the mark. (1 Corinthians 15:33) My own children had friends outside of the Witnesses growing up, but none of them were drop-kicks. Some of them even came to meetings with us. Balance is the key in all things.

"Loneliness"? A lot of people are lonely in this world....it doesn't mean that they have to keep company with undesirables in order to be less lonely.

Our kids are never "disowned"...what a horrible picture you present. I currently have a granddaughter who is disfellowshipped. She left home to lead a very immoral life and ended up pregnant and rejected by the man she was living with.
She came home and is now enjoying her son with very caring grandparents. She is making her way back to her spiritual roots, older and wiser, realizing that the world is somewhere that just chews you up and spits you out. She laments that she did not listen to her parents...it would have saved her a lot of heartache. We all know the story of the Prodigal Son. That is the model. The son was not welcomed home as one who had not changed his ways. The Father in that parable made no attempt to contact his son whilst he was living an immoral life, but once he decided to change his ways, he was welcomed back with open arms, the father even running out to meet him. (Luke 15:11-132)

Our kids are encouraged NOT to form relationships with the opposite sex before they are mature enough to handle them, because of the moral climate in which we live. My own family is testimony to that. Dating is reserved for choosing a marriage mate. We take marriage very seriously. There is no frivolous divorce for us.

"Community and charitable" involvement? We look after our own. Imagine if every church did that?
The best community service we can perform is the one assigned by Jesus Christ.....to tell people about the best government there is....one that will soon take over the reins of world rulership, and give people the best living conditions ever.....under God's Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)

The "windowless" Kingdom Halls are usually found in areas where vandalism is high. It saves having to constantly replace windows.There is nothing sinister in it.....unless you want to manufacture one.

Your completely negative posts here tells us why you never became a JW...and I think we are grateful not to have you in our ranks.
The whining would never stop!

Fact:- Jehovah's witnesses are the poorest people as a religious group in US

Regardless of whether JHW gets to heaven or not, they, in general, lead poverty stricken life in US.
Since, unlike black church members, there is no 500 year history of racial discrimination on the members, I can see the only explanation to be their lack of education.
Perhaps this is for the best. Jesus says that the poorest have much greater chance of making it...
Hindus, in general, strongly disagree that wealth is any hindrance to a pious and virtuous life. Renunciation is different from poverty. If you are a billionaire and gives much of it away for charitable causes and live simply, one is a renunciate, but not poor.

 

[Deeje]

Once again, sorry Charlie, you don't get to invalidate my experiences just because you don't like them.

Your experience isn't everyone's experience. It does not reflect in any way on my brotherhood or our youth. This is your version of events and with such a negative attitude, who could trust your interpretation of anything?

I have seen JW parents disown gay and lesbian children.

No, you have seen gay and lesbian children make a choice between their lovers and their God. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We will not condone something God condemns. No apology for that.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Fact:- Jehovah's witnesses are the poorest people as a religious group in US

The rank and file jw's are poor, but the leaders in New York are very wealthy men!

 

[Deeje]

Regardless of whether JHW gets to heaven or not, they, in general, lead poverty stricken life in US.

Is it just me or do Americans tend to consider only what happens in their own country? I am not American and my experience of Jehovah's Witnesses generally is that they live in the middle somewhere.....neither very wealthy or in abject poverty.
Of course wealth and poverty is relative to the land you live in.

A simple lifestyle is to be preferred, since the more you have...the more you have to worry about all your stuff.

A wise man wrote...
"Remove untruth and lies far from me.
Give me neither poverty nor riches.
Just let me consume my portion of food,
9 So that I do not become satisfied and deny you and say, “Who is Jehovah?”
Nor let me become poor and steal and dishonor the name of my God." (Proverbs 30:8-9)

Or the words of Jesus....
"19 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is focused, your whole body will be bright. 23 But if your eye is envious, your whole body will be dark. If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!
24 “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches." (Matthew 6:19-24)

Very wise words in our opinion.

Since, unlike black church members, there is no 500 year history of racial discrimination on the members, I can see the only explanation to be their lack of education.

Or the explanation could be their choice to live a simpler lifestyle. Chasing after riches is for fools. Money and material things do not make you happy. Ask the rich and famous how happy they are being able to buy anything they want. They are among the most miserable people on earth. How many manage to stay married or to spend quality time with their children.

We would rather slave for God than riches.

 

[Deeje]

The rank and file jw's are poor, but the leaders in New York are very wealthy men!

And here come the trolls.....

JW's are not all poor. They live modestly in the middle somewhere in whatever culture they find themselves, as Jesus recommended. The "leaders" are not "wealthy" at all....because we have no "leaders". We have a "governing body" made up of older men in much the same way as the first century Christians did.
You want to compare what the Pope lives in compared to our shepherds and overseers? Ever been to the Vatican djh?

We have shepherds who care for a flock that belongs to their Master. They live in modest motel style accommodation with few personal possessions. They are accountable to Jesus, not you.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Your experience isn't everyone's experience. It does not reflect in any way on my brotherhood or our youth. This is your version of events and with such a negative attitude, who could trust your interpretation of anything?

Your experience isn't everyone's experience. It does not reflect in any way on my JWs or their youth. This is your version of events and with such a strong bias in favor of protecting the organization's image, who could trust your interpretation of anything?

See how easy that sort of argument is to turn around?

No, you have seen gay and lesbian children make a choice between their lovers and their God. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We will not condone something God condemns. No apology for that.

My, you turned pretty quickly from

Our kids are never "disowned"...what a horrible picture you present.

Just stop. There's no point in continuing. You won't convince me and you're just digging a deeper hole.

 

[Deeje]

See how easy that sort of argument is to turn around?

Your opinion is your opinion. Your posts appear to be vengeful and negative....but if that is who you are, so be it.
No point in....

 

[sayak83]

Is it just me or do Americans tend to consider only what happens in their own country? I am not American and my experience of Jehovah's Witnesses generally is that they live in the middle somewhere.....neither very wealthy or in abject poverty.
Of course wealth and poverty is relative to the land you live in.

A simple lifestyle is to be preferred, since the more you have...the more you have to worry about all your stuff.

A wise man wrote...
"Remove untruth and lies far from me.
Give me neither poverty nor riches.
Just let me consume my portion of food,
9 So that I do not become satisfied and deny you and say, “Who is Jehovah?”
Nor let me become poor and steal and dishonor the name of my God." (Proverbs 30:8-9)

Or the words of Jesus....
"19 “Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is focused, your whole body will be bright. 23 But if your eye is envious, your whole body will be dark. If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!
24 “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches." (Matthew 6:19-24)

Very wise words in our opinion.



Or the explanation could be their choice to live a simpler lifestyle. Chasing after riches is for fools. Money and material things do not make you happy. Ask the rich and famous how happy they are being able to buy anything they want. They are among the most miserable people on earth. How many manage to stay married or to spend quality time with their children.

We would rather slave for God than riches.

Have you noticed that the original OP article is only about the American JHW community is suffering from poverty and lost opportunity of social and material progress due to the hostile attitude of the Watchtower organization towards higher education? The experiences and polls of US JHW show it. Why are your Australian experiences relevant to this discussion at all?

Also please show scientific evidence that JHW people are happier than the rich folk.
Here is the income you need for attaining your optimal happiness in US.
Here Is The Income Level At Which Money Won't Make You Any Happier In Each State | The Huffington Post


Jesus (as interpreted by you) was wrong, just as he was in so many other things. Utterly totally, fundamentally and absolutely wrong.

There I said it in purple too.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Your opinion is your opinion. Your posts appear to be vengeful and negative....but if that is who you are, so be it.
No point in....

Your opinion is your opinion. Your posts appear angry and over-defensive, as if nobody should be allowed to bring to light bad experiences about JWs...but if that's who you are, so be it.

No point in making easily reversible arguments.

 

[oldbadger]

Because it's a dark side of the JW collective that often gets brushed under the rug a lot, imo.

So, every time a discusion about Judaism, Islam, Unitarianism, Trinitarianism, etc gets brought up, there's you, doing your righteous bit for humanity with 'They're against Lesbianism?'

After I decided to stop studying and stop attending meetings I only had a very few number of people who didn't lose touch with me. And most of them were admittedly much more liberal in their beliefs than the norm (or at least main-line JW doctrine.)

What did you expect? JWs believe deeply that they're on a mission from God. The Elder that visits me comes round less often now because their magazines have gone digital...... we're friends but our discussions probably irritate us both and cause us to study more. He says that whilst most 'nice' people just smile and agree, hiding their feelings, he and I discuss warmly. We've taught each other a lot.

...................... A front that is meant to impress, to proselytize to outsiders....... ........................ Being a JW, in my experience, teaches you to be a very good salesperson. Not necessarily a good person.

Gosh! How dreadful! So they were good salespersons? How wicked! So salesperson might mean something bad to you? ..... you begin to surface as a bit of a skeptic, possibly? Goodness knows what you think about the ruthless, cold, careless, badbad, World. !!!!!

We have more LDS than JWs here, as well as Amish communities, fulfilling the same tasks with the same sort of reputation. I'm not saying that JWs can't or won't be the consummate cordial professional. Just that it's a pretty poor representation of what the inside life is, in my experience. And I still have JW friends, don't get me wrong, there is exceptions.

I think that you're just biased against them, and your title-thingy suggests a heavy agenda. You just don't get it, do you? JW children would be very very unlikely to bully a weak kid, or psycho-bully a thick kid, or hurt each other, or steal from each other, or slander each other, or... or ...... be like usual kids. For some kids school is like Hell-on-Earth, and nobody gives a damn until a tragedy occurs.....

But I also have JWs that I stopped associating with because they let their non-JW daughter think that her brother went missing.............................................. .'

Ah..... so what you wrote about 'they lost touch from me' was also 'I lost touch from them'. Is that the worst situation you found......... 'Siblings lose touch through lost faith!!' ?

Like I said, I'm using it more as an example of the sort of insular nature and closed-off feel kids may have within the organization. That I think the overall lack of higher learning in JWs is symptomatic of a larger problem of this insular nature.

I honestly don't think I'd have wanted you to take my kids on a train ride. My late wife was a bahai and bahai is anti-gay etc, and other stuff, but I get the feeling that your atheism could show itself in your non-verbal-gestures and body-language. I know a bit about same and kids are subliminally very sensitive to this, more than researchers might have discovered.

I would not want to live in a JW theocracy, not that I'm in love with present arrangements; but the issue here is that JW kids seem to be very balanced, contented, happy and most kids out there are unbalanced, discontent, unhappy..... even their language shows their crushed feelings........ Over here 'Very very impressive' is described as 'Well Sick'. In fact that's a bit like the World that we are preparing kids for...... 'Well Sick'.