Killing IS justified

[oldbadger]

I was debating a christian.

Hi....
But you could have been debating a naturalist. Nature is going to kill you, one way or t'other. Nature cleaves a large and deadly scythe.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Now that is funny

Ok, I’m just going to toss this out there.

You can take it any way you like.

The God I know, from reading the Bible, cannot possibly harm anyone, cannot possibly punish anyone, cannot possibly send anyone to hell. The literal words in the Bible can sometimes appear very bad, but that is an appearance. The literal words are only a container for the spiritual concepts present within. It becomes easier and easier to see the spiritual meaning. It has for me anyway. The key to it all, was discovering what God is.

 

[ChristineM]

Hi....
But you could have been debating a naturalist. Nature is going to kill you, one way or t'other. Nature cleaves a large and deadly scythe.

According to the OT, so did god.

And of course, nature is amoral and doesnt give a fig if you have been "sinful" or not.

 

[ChristineM]

Ok, I’m just going to toss this out there.

You can take it any way you like.

The God I know, from reading the Bible, cannot possibly harm anyone, cannot possibly punish anyone, cannot possibly send anyone to hell. The literal words in the Bible can sometimes appear very bad, but that is an appearance. The literal words are only a container for the spiritual concepts present within. It becomes easier and easier to see the spiritual meaning. It has for me anyway. The key to it all, was discovering what God is.

I must be weird, very weird, i read books as they are written, not to massage my sensibilities.

 

[oldbadger]

Assault with no provocation from me. IE someone trying to kill me, someone using violence against me be it a weapon or body, robbery, and kidnapping. At least that is what I can think of at the moment.

That is a threat not an attack.

I am not a mind reader so I am not obligated to figure out the intent of the person assaulting me nor am I going to pause for consideration of whether this is a beating or attempting to kill me.

Assault:-You can't kill somebody just because they were violent to how you with their body. Why don't you just show them how dangerous you are first? Call out a warning. If you're armed, show your gun and call out. Courts like to know that you did give fair warning........ well, civilised courts, anyway.

Kidnap:- Are you worth kidnapping? Rich? Incredibly beautiful? My guess is........ sleep tight tonight!

Robbery:- Throw down your watch, wallet, mobile, and back away!!! Throw them down! They are not worth the never ending memory of how the person died by your hand. Always concede to the demands of a robber if you can.

Most killings are not justified.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Assault with no provocation from me. IE someone trying to kill me, someone using violence against me be it a weapon or body, robbery, and kidnapping. At least that is what I can think of at the moment.



That is a threat not an attack.



I am not a mind reader so I am not obligated to figure out the intent of the person assaulting me nor am I going to pause for consideration of whether this is a beating or attempting to kill me.

This concept of yours was responsible for the 1000s of nuclear weapons in the world. We need to be able to strike first before they can attack. And they need to be able to strike first before we can attack.

You are not a mind reader and cannot figure the intent of another.
SO WHY would you just assume he is going to harm you?
And WHY would you choose to harm him first.

Anyway, what are you protecting that requires murdering someone? There is nothing on this earth worth that.

 

[oldbadger]

According to the OT, so did god.

And of course, nature is amoral and doesnt give a fig if you have been "sinful" or not.

Well, thank goodness for that............. because I have been a sinful badger. Oh yes...... But Nature's going' to get me...... I just don't know how. By the way, a drunken nut in a truck counts as nature in my book.

 

[Shad]

This concept of yours was responsible for the 1000s of nuclear weapons in the world.

No as I am an individual and those are acts of governments.

We need to be able to strike first before they can attack. And they need to be able to strike first before we can attack.

Nope as you are inject premeditation and knowledge of an attack. I do not have the CIA nor can read minds. All the data I have is "I am being attacked due to no cause created by me"

SO WHY would you just assume he is going to harm you?

As they are in the process of assaulting me? Dumb question.

And WHY would you choose to harm him first.

I never said that.

Anyway, what are you protecting that requires murdering someone? There is nothing on this earth worth that.

My life..... Is this subject too complex for you?

 

[savagewind]

Imagine if any war never happened and here we are with all the descendants of the killed of just one period of war (WWII). There might have been even more deaths from starvation, local violence for food, more diseases, and a lack of water. Plus, the Nazis were stopped. Research Starters: Worldwide Deaths in World War II | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The God I know, from reading the Bible, cannot possibly harm anyone, cannot possibly punish anyone, cannot possibly send anyone to hell. The literal words in the Bible can sometimes appear very bad, but that is an appearance. The literal words are only a container for the spiritual concepts present within. It becomes easier and easier to see the spiritual meaning. It has for me anyway. The key to it all, was discovering what God is.

Here's the big problem with this stance: In all experience I have ever had on this planet, people who write about their exploits, or the exploits of those they support attempt to ameliorate the story (that is, make it more palatable or acceptable) for their audience. What this means is that you can pretty reliably take how "bad" a story like this is told to you and multiply the "bad" by some factor greater than 1. So, any of the stories in The Bible that are historically representative of actual events can be expected to have been as bad, and very likely worse, than what you read.

 

[ChristineM]

Well, thank goodness for that............. because I have been a sinful badger. Oh yes...... But Nature's going' to get me...... I just don't know how. By the way, a drunken nut in a truck counts as nature in my book.

A drunken nut is immoral, not amoral so just hope he ploughs into the wall before he reaches you and let nature take its course.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I must be weird, very weird, i read books as they are written, not to massage my sensibilities.

Correct.

And I would ask how and why and by whom was the Bible written?

There is no reason to read it, unless you believe it’s the Word of God. If you’re just reading it to pass the time, I could recommend maybe Grisham or Patterson.

If you believe it’s the Word of God, then my first question would be: what can possibly be here? Since this has been written by an infinite being, perhaps there is more there than meets the eye.
And if it’s spiritual, why would I want to make all the verses conform to my worldly ideas?

Remember, most cannot get anything out of the Bible, except contradictions and mysteries, including Christians.

I can tell you’re highly intelligent and highly interested in expanding your knowledge. Seek and you will find your answers.
I know it. I’m not just saying all this. I believe it.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Anyway, what are you protecting that requires murdering someone? There is nothing on this earth worth that.

So you consider self-defense "murder?" Is the death penalty (basically societal-defense for extreme cases) also murder? Because if so, I can tell you - from my perspective - protecting the innocent and well-meaning among us from a criminal willing to take their lives is definitely worth it.

 

[oldbadger]

As they are in the process of assaulting me? Dumb question.

Why don't you punch the assailant in the mouth and run?
What weapons does the assailant have? Why did the assailant pick on you?

My life..... Is this subject too complex for you?

You really should try chucking down your watch etc. Try running away. Use your wits. And then if you really do have to kill the person you can show a Court that you did everything possible BEFORE you killed.

Stop being so frightened, is my suggestion.

 

[ChristineM]

Imagine if any war never happened and here we are with all the descendants of the killed of just one period of war (WWII). There might have been even more deaths from starvation, local violence for food, more diseases, and a lack of water. Plus, the Nazis were stopped. Research Starters: Worldwide Deaths in World War II | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Norman Borlaug sorted out the starvation thing.

But i agree, without wars this world would probably be far more crowded.

 

[oldbadger]

So you consider self-defense "murder?" Is the death penalty (basically societal-defense for extreme cases) also murder? Because if so, I can tell you - from my perspective - protecting the innocent and well-meaning among us from a criminal willing to take their lives is definitely worth it.

Unfortunately a lot of 'self-defence' was unnecessary, as in the killing of a person who has wandered in to property by mistake.
Would you kill an intruder before calling out a warning ??
The 'self-defence' theme is often an excuse for hystericals to kill, I think.

 

[savagewind]

Anyway, what are you protecting that requires murdering someone? There is nothing on this earth worth that.

How about to prevent more deaths? The death of a criminal or the death of many innocents because someone has decided that killing is wrong?

 

[oldbadger]

Norman Borlaug sorted out the starvation thing.

But i agree, without wars this world would probably be far more crowded.

Nature will take care of overcrowding, eventually.
And Nature will do it ruthlessly.
And Nature can't be killed.

 

[ChristineM]

Correct.

And I would ask how and why and by whom was the Bible written?

There is no reason to read it, unless you believe it’s the Word of God. If you’re just reading it to pass the time, I could recommend maybe Grisham or Patterson.

If you believe it’s the Word of God, then my first question would be: what can possibly be here? Since this has been written by an infinite being, perhaps there is more there than meets the eye.
And if it’s spiritual, why would I want to make all the verses conform to my worldly ideas?

Remember, most cannot get anything out of the Bible, except contradictions and mysteries, including Christians.

I can tell you’re highly intelligent and highly interested in expanding your knowledge. Seek and you will find your answers.
I know it. I’m not just saying all this. I believe it.

I read it because i wanted to understand what made christians (those i knew at least) such nasty b***ards. Expanding my knowledge so to speak.

 

[savagewind]

And Nature can't be killed.

It can be. It is being killed, slowly, but let it not be surely.