Speaking of special snowflakes.....I suppose that these are just accidental as well.....
Who knew that something so small could be so beautifully and perfectly designed? No two alike.
Bless the man who discovered how to photograph snowflakes!
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Just Accidental?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
- Status
Speaking of special snowflakes.....I suppose that these are just accidental as well.....
Who knew that something so small could be so beautifully and perfectly designed? No two alike.
Bless the man who discovered how to photograph snowflakes!
Wegener–Bergeron–Findeisen process - WikipediaSpeaking of special snowflakes.....I suppose that these are just accidental as well.....
Who knew that something so small could be so beautifully and perfectly designed? No two alike.
Bless the man who discovered how to photograph snowflakes!
"Cause and effect" is what I believe we are seeing.....whatever effect you see, has a cause......right?
I believe that God was the one who created the principles upon which these things come into being. Trying to explain a "natural" cause for something that is clearly designed, is rather redundant IMV.
Like the flowers in my previous post....I give full credit to the designer.....you can call it pot luck if you like....whatever floats your boat.
I believe that matter inherently and eternally possesses the properties and relational propensities that, when interacting with other matter, foster the growth of order, structure and complexity seen in macroscopic wholes like crystals, life, stars or galaxies. Thus matter is inherently rich with properties and relational structures and these are merely expressed on a large scale when, under certain cases, the interactions between large quantities of matter, permit suitable conditions to arise. Physics shows this to be true."Cause and effect" is what I believe we are seeing.....whatever effect you see, has a cause......right?
I believe that God was the one who created the principles upon which these things come into being. Trying to explain a "natural" cause for something that is clearly designed, is rather redundant IMV.
Like the flowers in my previous post....I give full credit to the designer.....you can call it pot luck if you like....whatever floats your boat.
Regarding the reason for this this inherent property rich characteristic. Atheists believe this to be brute fact. Hindus like me consider this to be the inevitable consequences of matter being an emanating from, and hence another aspect of Brahman, the ultimate entity that is the only thing or being that exists.
Yes, they are all quite beautiful. What makes you think that their beauty has anything at all to do with us? What makes you think *we* are the ones that beauty is directed to? Especially when we *know* those colors are there because they attract the pollinators for those flowers? Oh, wait! COuld that be why those colors and patterns were selected? Because they attract the pollinators that allow for reproduction?
Again, you show beautiful pictures and claim they are works of art. Prove it. Prove that the *goal* of those colors is to act as a work of art. Prove that there is an intelligence behind the formation of those colors.
Have you looked into how those colors are formed? How the chemicals in the petals of the flower produce the colors you see? What the metabolic pathways are to produce such colors? How the development of the plant produces those colors in the petals?
Or do you just sit back, content with not knowing anything, and decide it much be due to a deity that *love* you?
"Cause and effect" is what I believe we are seeing.....whatever effect you see, has a cause......right?
I believe that God was the one who created the principles upon which these things come into being. Trying to explain a "natural" cause for something that is clearly designed, is rather redundant IMV.
Like the flowers in my previous post....I give full credit to the designer.....you can call it pot luck if you like....whatever floats your boat.
Once again, give credit where credit is due: mutation and natural selection.
Speaking of special snowflakes.....I suppose that these are just accidental as well.....
Who knew that something so small could be so beautifully and perfectly designed? No two alike.
Bless the man who discovered how to photograph snowflakes!
yes, isn't it amazing what natural processes can do?
Did I say that they were designed exclusively for humans to admire? The Creator can multitask you know.....what facilitates pollination often has a dual purpose. I can assure you that only humans appreciate beauty for its own sake. No other creature in existence can do that. Do sunrises or sunsets need to be beautiful? No they don't....and yet they are....some more exquisite than others. What other creature stops to admire a sunset? What other creature wants to capture that image and preserve it purely for aesthetic reasons?
Who is not drawn to gaze at the multitude of stars on a clear moonless night? Do they need to be beautiful? Do humans need to have the capacity to admire them when no other creature does? You seem to gloss over a whole lot of differences between us and our nearest 'cousins'. I see the differences as wonderfully designed, not just flukes of nature. The gulf between humans and apes is a chasm that evolution can never bridge.
What other creature admires flowers and their variety and perfume like humans do? I have possums around my place that love flowers too.....to eat. I go out in the morning and the plant is stripped bare. You think they stopped to admire the beauty before they devoured them?
Of course they were "selected"....by the one who designed the attraction in the first place. What is the purpose of attraction? Reproduction of course. We end up with the same end result, only you think it was all just a series of fortunate accidents. You can think that if you like.
You mean like you can prove evolution? I can make 'suggestions' and offer 'conjecture' about all of it just as you can for macro-evolution......you have your belief system and so do I. I don't need a science degree to see the designs in nature. Apparently you do.
I don't recall saying that the colors in nature are there just to impress us. As an artist, I can tell you what it takes to blend colors to get the shade desired. The Creator is an artist. He gave humans alone the ability to be creative like he is. We are not programmed solely by instinct, but we can use our talents to invent out of our own imagination. What other creature has that capacity? Yes and how amazing is the process that produced all those colors and shades. All put in place by the great designer.
There are only three true colors but in nature you see beautiful blends and shading and patterns....all not only aesthetically pleasing to the human eye, but useful to the plant or creature for its survival. That is just a coincidence though, is it?
Its not about aesthetics to other creatures because to them, it's merely a means to an end.
More condescension?
Why do you need to do this? Is this a weak substitute for evidence? I know that evolution is your "pet" but seriously, for a scientist, you don't defend it very well.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Speaking of condescension...More condescension?
I know where the blindness is.
Also, I would be careful about being condescending to other people in future considering your entire current argument is literally "Colours are pretty, therefore God". Do you honestly think this is a reasonable argument?
Firstly, my responses were to posters who had already made condescending comments to me. I am usually very careful about the tone of my posts. It amuses me that you would troll back to quote mine a few harmless negative comments. They are nothing in comparison to what I have received.
My argument is NOT that 'colors are just pretty therefore God' but understanding how those colors are achieved by a blending of the three primaries, is beyond pure chemical reactions to achieve. Here are a few examples of color blending, coupled with design.....
Who could look at the way these beautiful creations are designed and automatically think that they are just 'accidents' of nature?......see the way the colors are blended to contrast and enhance the aesthetic value of each variety? You think that the plants just dreamed up their own designs and colors when many of them share the same pollinators? How does that make any sense?
That beauty is not appreciated by any other creature on this planet...except humans. Insects don't care about aesthetics and neither do plants; insects are only attracted to color and aroma.....and the plants only need to attract their pollinators to survive......so what is the purpose of all this amazing variety of color and perfume that we humans find so enjoyable?
Is it all "just accidental"? I see purpose and exquisite craftsmanship, designed to perpetuate life and add to human enjoyment of living on this planet, just as it was meant to do.
And yet, in the development of each individual flower, pure chemical reactions *are* enough to achieve the effects you see. At NO point was there any outside intervention here--no artist changed the way the plants grow and develop.
We know that many insects are attracted to particular patterns in various flowers.
We even know of flowers that are rather drab in 'visible' light, but have dramatic patterns in ultra-violet light, which can be seen by bees.
In other words, for these flowers, the beauty is NOT for humans. it is for bees.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
In other words, when other people are condescending it's because they're ignorant meanies who don't have a rational argument, but when YOU are condescending it's just "harmless negative comments".
You're a hypocrite. Doesn't the Bible say something about logs and eyes?
Honestly, your argument is so puerile that I shouldn't even have to explain why it is flawed. So, instead, I'm just going to refute it with a series of images.My argument is NOT that 'colors are just pretty therefore God' but understanding how those colors are achieved by a blending of the three primaries, is beyond pure chemical reactions to achieve. Here are a few examples of color blending, coupled with design.....
Who could look at the way these beautiful creations are designed and automatically think that they are just 'accidents' of nature?......see the way the colors are blended to contrast and enhance the aesthetic value of each variety? You think that the plants just dreamed up their own designs and colors when many of them share the same pollinators? How does that make any sense?
That beauty is not appreciated by any other creature on this planet...except humans. Insects don't care about aesthetics and neither do plants; insects are only attracted to color and aroma.....and the plants only need to attract their pollinators to survive......so what is the purpose of all this amazing variety of color and perfume that we humans find so enjoyable?
Is it all "just accidental"? I see purpose and exquisite craftsmanship, designed to perpetuate life and add to human enjoyment of living on this planet, just as it was meant to do.
Here is a picture of an angler-fish:
And this cute little fellow is a star nosed mole:
Dozens of these creatures live in your eyelashes:
And this random collection of eldritch features is called the Portugese Man-Of-War:
Do you get the point?
In other words, when other people are condescending it's because they're ignorant meanies who don't have a rational argument, but when YOU are condescending it's just "harmless negative comments".
You're a hypocrite. Doesn't the Bible say something about logs and eyes?
Honestly, your argument is so puerile that I shouldn't even have to explain why it is flawed. So, instead, I'm just going to refute it with a series of images.
Here is a picture of an angler-fish:
And this cute little fellow is a star nosed mole:
Dozens of these creatures live in your eyelashes:
And this random collection of eldritch features is called the Portugese Man-Of-War:
Do you get the point?
LOL. I just had to laugh. I saw the photographs.
Those deep sea creatures are inordinately alien appearing and frightening. Why is that, given that we all arose under the same set of principles?
I wonder if it's related to the lack of interaction between them and us through history. Leopards and grizzlies, however fierce, don't seem like monsters - just potentially dangerous. Still, they're nice to look at, unlike those deep sea uglies.
All well explained by biological mechanisms that arose through evolution. Seriously, do you even try to find out anything?Firstly, my responses were to posters who had already made condescending comments to me. I am usually very careful about the tone of my posts. It amuses me that you would troll back to quote mine a few harmless negative comments. They are nothing in comparison to what I have received.
My argument is NOT that 'colors are just pretty therefore God' but understanding how those colors are achieved by a blending of the three primaries, is beyond pure chemical reactions to achieve. Here are a few examples of color blending, coupled with design.....
Who could look at the way these beautiful creations are designed and automatically think that they are just 'accidents' of nature?......see the way the colors are blended to contrast and enhance the aesthetic value of each variety? You think that the plants just dreamed up their own designs and colors when many of them share the same pollinators? How does that make any sense?
That beauty is not appreciated by any other creature on this planet...except humans. Insects don't care about aesthetics and neither do plants; insects are only attracted to color and aroma.....and the plants only need to attract their pollinators to survive......so what is the purpose of all this amazing variety of color and perfume that we humans find so enjoyable?
Is it all "just accidental"? I see purpose and exquisite craftsmanship, designed to perpetuate life and add to human enjoyment of living on this planet, just as it was meant to do.
ABC model of flower development - Wikipedia
At least find something that has not been explained already for more of a challenge.
Yes, but it's really sad what that means for them, yet it was foretold, so its no surprise.
Oh, thank you.......you know I love pictures of the creatures we talk about......
Here is a picture of an angler-fish:
Lets see what a quick Google search will turn up......
"There are more than 200 species of anglerfish, most of which live in the murky depths of the Atlantic and Antarctic oceans, up to a mile below the surface, although some live in shallow, tropical environments.
I am sure that they have no trouble finding a mate, so beauty is in the eye of the beholder in this case. As I do not frequent the murky depths of the Atlantic or Arctic oceans, I doubt I would ever see one...except maybe on a documentary.
And this cute little fellow is a star nosed mole:
"As the fuzzy little carnivore plows through soggy soils, it bobs its head in constant motion. In the mole’s dark underground world, sight is useless—instead, it feels a world pulsing with prey. The mole hunts by bopping its star against the soil as quickly as possible; it can touch 10 or 12 different places in a single second.
It looks random, but it's not. With each touch, 100,000 nerve fibers send information to the mole’s brain. That’s five times more touch sensors than in the human hand, all packed into a nose smaller than a fingertip."
Not designed though eh?......and most likely we will never encounter one as it lives underground. I am sure other moles think he's very handsome.
Dozens of these creatures live in your eyelashes:
And yet unless I had a microscope, I would never see them. There are whole colonies of creatures that live on our bodies and they are usually beneficial, though because of the imperfection of our flesh, (compromised immunity) we often succumb to infections. A perfectly functioning immune system would keep us all well.
And this random collection of eldritch features is called the Portugese Man-Of-War:
I have lived with these guys all my life. We call them "blue bottles" and we know how to handle them. I remember as a child when they washed up on the beach, we used to go and pop them, being careful to avoid the tentacles. They are fascinating creatures considering that each one is a separate colony of living things, all co-existing and dependent on one another. The sting is easily treated with vinegar.
"The Bluebottle or Portuguese Man-of-War is not a single animal but a colony of four kinds of highly modified individuals (zooids). The zooids are dependent on one another for survival.
The digestive polyps are the 'stomachs' of the colony and respond quickly to the presence of food, wriggling and twisting until they fasten their flexible mouths to it. Once attached they become all mouth, spreading out over the surface of the morsel. The resting polyp measures only 1-2 mm in diameter but the mouth may expand to more than 20 mm. They digest the food by secreting a full range of enzymes that variously break down proteins, carbohydrates and fats.
The most impressive members of the colony are the tentacles. As Physalia drifts downwind, the long tentacle fishes continuously through the water. Muscles in the tentacle contract and drag prey into range of the digestive polyps. The prey consists mostly of small crustaceans and other members of the surface plankton which it ensnares in a tangle of nematocyst threads."
But, now can you tell me which one of these I would encounter on a walk through the woods....?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Congratulations on completely missing the point and exposing your own argument from beauty as being entirely fallacious, since you now even admit that beauty is relative and not an indicator of design.Yes, but it's really sad what that means for them, yet it was foretold, so its no surprise.(Matthew 7:13-14)
Oh, thank you.......you know I love pictures of the creatures we talk about......
Lets see what a quick Google search will turn up......
"There are more than 200 species of anglerfish, most of which live in the murky depths of the Atlantic and Antarctic oceans, up to a mile below the surface, although some live in shallow, tropical environments.
I am sure that they have no trouble finding a mate, so beauty is in the eye of the beholder in this case. As I do not frequent the murky depths of the Atlantic or Arctic oceans, I doubt I would ever see one...except maybe on a documentary.
"As the fuzzy little carnivore plows through soggy soils, it bobs its head in constant motion. In the mole’s dark underground world, sight is useless—instead, it feels a world pulsing with prey. The mole hunts by bopping its star against the soil as quickly as possible; it can touch 10 or 12 different places in a single second.
It looks random, but it's not. With each touch, 100,000 nerve fibers send information to the mole’s brain. That’s five times more touch sensors than in the human hand, all packed into a nose smaller than a fingertip."
Not designed though eh?......and most likely we will never encounter one as it lives underground. I am sure other moles think he's very handsome.
And yet unless I had a microscope, I would never see them. There are whole colonies of creatures that live on our bodies and they are usually beneficial, though because of the imperfection of our flesh, (compromised immunity) we often succumb to infections. A perfectly functioning immune system would keep us all well.
I have lived with these guys all my life. We call them "blue bottles" and we know how to handle them. I remember as a child when they washed up on the beach, we used to go and pop them, being careful to avoid the tentacles. They are fascinating creatures considering that each one is a separate colony of living things, all co-existing and dependent on one another. The sting is easily treated with vinegar.
"The Bluebottle or Portuguese Man-of-War is not a single animal but a colony of four kinds of highly modified individuals (zooids). The zooids are dependent on one another for survival.
The digestive polyps are the 'stomachs' of the colony and respond quickly to the presence of food, wriggling and twisting until they fasten their flexible mouths to it. Once attached they become all mouth, spreading out over the surface of the morsel. The resting polyp measures only 1-2 mm in diameter but the mouth may expand to more than 20 mm. They digest the food by secreting a full range of enzymes that variously break down proteins, carbohydrates and fats.
The most impressive members of the colony are the tentacles. As Physalia drifts downwind, the long tentacle fishes continuously through the water. Muscles in the tentacle contract and drag prey into range of the digestive polyps. The prey consists mostly of small crustaceans and other members of the surface plankton which it ensnares in a tangle of nematocyst threads."
I sure do....you have just demonstrated how many wonderful creatures there are in existence that we rarely see and can wonder at their fantastic abilities, obviously given to them by an incredible designer.
But, now can you tell me which one of these I would encounter on a walk through the woods....?
You're not good at constructing a cogent argument, are you?
And I wonder who put those chemical reactions into place in order to achieve the desired result? The Creator is also a scientist, you know.
The blind forces of chance could never achieve the perfection we see in nature, let alone their amazing array of perfumes and designs. Accidents happen it is true, but how many of them are ever beneficial?....and how many 'accidents' are we talking about here? You know that for a fact, do you? Or are you just "suggesting" that this "might be" or "could be" the case?
But why? Who designed the mechanism that creates the attraction in the first place?....I know how you will answer that....science's substitute for "God did it"...."Natural selection did it". Right? That is a suggestion.
Yes, I have seen documentaries on this. Perhaps that is the Creator's special gift to the bees?
What other hidden abilities are yet to be discovered in the natural world? Wonderful, isn't it? It is not something observable to humans, so who is missing it in amongst all those other beautiful things? The bees get a gift, probably useful for pollination. The beauty is still there in the bees themselves and in the other flowers in the garden. You are grasping at straws, methinks.
Well, seriously, do you ever step outside your own mindset? No need?.........Neither have I.
You can explain away the Creator all you wish....it doesn't make him disappear.
Is that a "No" answer to his question about you having any interest in learning?
Did you look at his link? I'll bet not. You didn't acknowledge its existence let alone comment on its content. It was a discussion of the anatomy, genetics, and growth and development of flowering plants and the generation of flowers.
What do you think that assiduously refusing to learn science does to the credibility of your objections about the claims of science?
Do you have any opinion about the validity of this? :
"They were allowed to stay there on one condition, and that is that they didn't eat of the tree of knowledge. That has been the condition of the Christian church from then until now. They haven't eaten as yet, as a rule they do not." - Clarence Darrow
Good that you have admitted close mindedness. Good that you have admitted that you have deliberately chosen to turn your back on objective scientific evidence. Your questions like can this or that be explained by science are mere empty rhetoric. You do not care what the answers are, you have predetermined not to learn them, not to hear them and use your willful, obstinate and deliberately cultivated ignorance of reality as a shield to shore up your fantasy faith on a poor simulated shadow of a God.Well, seriously, do you ever step outside your own mindset? No need?.........Neither have I.
You can explain away the Creator all you wish....it doesn't make him disappear.
But you asked a question. What has science discovered about the evolution and development of flowers. I have answered it. It's important as flowering plants and pollination and technologies that make them more bountiful is the only thing keeping the 7 billion of our kind fed everyday, and the only thing that will prevent mass starvation of the expected 12 billion folks by 2070 in an increasingly unstable climatic conditions brought about by global warming. The world will continue and flourish and no amount of praying and delusion born ignorance from end of the world desiring groups like JW will alter this. But you can continue to be blind and deaf. Your choice.
- Status