Judaism and Supplemental Material

[Jayhawker Soule]

Like who?

-->-->--> ignore-list

 

[Swede01]

-->-->--> ignore-list

What do you mean?

 

[Harel13]

What do you mean?

He means that he's putting you on ignore. It's a feature in this site, that members can put one another on ignore and then they don't see the ignored member's posts.

 

[Swede01]

He means that he's putting you on ignore. It's a feature in this site, that members can put one another on ignore and then they don't see the ignored member's posts.

Okay, I was just asking questions to everyone but okay I did not know about that feature

 

[Harel13]

Okay, I was just asking questions to everyone but okay I did not know about that feature

Sometimes people find it necessary to use that feature.

 

[Swede01]

Sometimes people find it necessary to use that feature.

yeah

 

[Swede01]

But can someone start out as a noachide and then convert?

 

[Harel13]

But can someone start out as a noachide and then convert?

Certainly.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Like who?

Pretty much anything that started as a movement and didn't already exist prior to their start. You can basically look up a movement and see what their reason for founding was. Many of them will state, either directly or indirectly, what they beleive. Sometimes the wording is kind of nested in things like being emancipated and such.

You can literally ask someone if their movement holds that Hashem gave the Torah as a mass revelation at Mount Sinai and whether said movement holds that Hashem gave the mitzvoth, and the text of the Torah, to Mosheh (Moses).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But can someone start out as a noachide and then convert?

Yes. Again, Torath Mosheh, which includes Orthodox Judaism, has a different standard of what a conversion is and what is required to do so than various movements you may have heard of.

Yet, for Torath Mosheh Jews, being a Noachide would be a good start to already having some level of knowledge needed to convert. I can't answer for non-Torath Mosheh movements though. I don't fully know what the stardards are for non-Torath Mosheh movements.

 

[Swede01]

Pretty much anything that started as a movement and didn't already exist prior to their start. You can basically look up a movement and see what their reason for founding was. Many of them will state, either directly or indirectly, what they beleive. Sometimes the wording is kind of nested in things like being emancipated and such.

You can literally ask someone if their movement holds that Hashem gave the Torah as a mass revelation at Mount Sinai and whether said movement holds that Hashem gave the mitzvoth, and the text of the Torah, to Mosheh (Moses).

Who are the "first" jews then? Were the first jews close to modern orthodox jews? How much of the original practices have been abandoned?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Who are the "first" jews then? Were the first jews close to modern orthodox jews? How much of the original practices have been abandoned?

The best way for me to answer your question is with a few videos I created. See below.

 

[Swede01]

Okay

 

[RabbiO]

@Swede01

@Ehav4Ever is erudite about many aspects of Judaism. However, Reform Judaism is not one of them.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Swede01

@Ehav4Ever is erudite about many aspects of Judaism. However, Reform Judaism is not one of them.

I agree, Reform Judaism is a bit foreign to me as stated before in this thread.

Do you have any suggestions for the situation that @Swede01 described of him wanting to convert to Reform Judaism with the restrictions he mentioned?

 

[David Davidovich]

Rather than to start a thread for another individual topic, I would like to ask another question: What is the viewpoint of Torath Mosheh Jews on Numbers 5:11-31. And you can either translate what the Hebrew means, or just explain what those verses are meaning along with Jewish commentaries on those verses. Either way, I will take you word for what you say about those verses.

וַיְדַבֵּ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֥ה לֵּאמֹֽר׃ יהוה spoke to Moses, saying:

דַּבֵּר֙ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וְאָמַרְתָּ֖ אֲלֵהֶ֑ם אִ֥ישׁ אִישׁ֙ כִּֽי־תִשְׂטֶ֣ה אִשְׁתּ֔וֹ וּמָעֲלָ֥ה ב֖וֹ מָֽעַל׃ Speak to the Israelite people and say to them: Any party whose wife has gone astray and broken faith with him,

וְשָׁכַ֨ב אִ֣ישׁ אֹתָהּ֮ שִׁכְבַת־זֶ֒רַע֒ וְנֶעְלַם֙ מֵעֵינֵ֣י אִישָׁ֔הּ וְנִסְתְּרָ֖ה וְהִ֣יא נִטְמָ֑אָה וְעֵד֙ אֵ֣ין בָּ֔הּ וְהִ֖וא לֹ֥א נִתְפָּֽשָׂה׃ in that another man*another man Lit. “a participant whose involvement defines the depicted situation.” See the Dictionary under ’ish. has had carnal relations with her unbeknown to her husband, and she keeps secret the fact that she has defiled herself without being forced, and there is no witness against her,

וְעָבַ֨ר עָלָ֧יו רֽוּחַ־קִנְאָ֛ה וְקִנֵּ֥א אֶת־אִשְׁתּ֖וֹ וְהִ֣וא נִטְמָ֑אָה אוֹ־עָבַ֨ר עָלָ֤יו רֽוּחַ־קִנְאָה֙ וְקִנֵּ֣א אֶת־אִשְׁתּ֔וֹ וְהִ֖יא לֹ֥א נִטְמָֽאָה׃ but a fit of jealousy comes over him and he is wrought up about the wife who has defiled herself—or if a fit of jealousy comes over him and he is wrought up about his wife although she has not defiled herself—

וְהֵבִ֨יא הָאִ֣ישׁ אֶת־אִשְׁתּוֹ֮ אֶל־הַכֹּהֵן֒ וְהֵבִ֤יא אֶת־קׇרְבָּנָהּ֙ עָלֶ֔יהָ עֲשִׂירִ֥ת הָאֵיפָ֖ה קֶ֣מַח שְׂעֹרִ֑ים לֹֽא־יִצֹ֨ק עָלָ֜יו שֶׁ֗מֶן וְלֹֽא־יִתֵּ֤ן עָלָיו֙ לְבֹנָ֔ה כִּֽי־מִנְחַ֤ת קְנָאֹת֙ ה֔וּא מִנְחַ֥ת זִכָּר֖וֹן מַזְכֶּ֥רֶת עָוֺֽן׃ that party shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring as an offering for her one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. No oil shall be poured upon it and no frankincense shall be laid on it, for it is a meal offering of jealousy, a meal offering of remembrance which recalls wrongdoing.

וְהִקְרִ֥יב אֹתָ֖הּ הַכֹּהֵ֑ן וְהֶֽעֱמִדָ֖הּ לִפְנֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃ The priest shall bring her forward and have her stand before יהוה.

וְלָקַ֧ח הַכֹּהֵ֛ן מַ֥יִם קְדֹשִׁ֖ים בִּכְלִי־חָ֑רֶשׂ וּמִן־הֶֽעָפָ֗ר אֲשֶׁ֤ר יִהְיֶה֙ בְּקַרְקַ֣ע הַמִּשְׁכָּ֔ן יִקַּ֥ח הַכֹּהֵ֖ן וְנָתַ֥ן אֶל־הַמָּֽיִם׃ The priest shall take sacral water in an earthen vessel and, taking some of the earth that is on the floor of the Tabernacle, the priest shall put it into the water.

וְהֶעֱמִ֨יד הַכֹּהֵ֥ן אֶֽת־הָאִשָּׁה֮ לִפְנֵ֣י יְהֹוָה֒ וּפָרַע֙ אֶת־רֹ֣אשׁ הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֣ן עַל־כַּפֶּ֗יהָ אֵ֚ת מִנְחַ֣ת הַזִּכָּר֔וֹן מִנְחַ֥ת קְנָאֹ֖ת הִ֑וא וּבְיַ֤ד הַכֹּהֵן֙ יִהְי֔וּ מֵ֥י הַמָּרִ֖ים הַמְאָֽרְרִֽים׃ After he has made the woman*the woman Lit. “the (womanly) participant whose involvement defines the depicted situation,” namely the ritual proceeding. Labeling her as “woman” in this passage means that she is construed mainly as a party to the proceeding, rather than as her husband’s wife. See the Dictionary under ’ish. stand before יהוה, the priest shall bare the woman’s head*bare the woman’s head Or “dishevel the woman’s hair”; cf. Lev. 10.6. and place upon her hands the meal offering of remembrance, which is a meal offering of jealousy. And in the priest’s hands shall be the water of bitterness that induces the spell.*that induces the spell Meaning of Heb. ha-me’arerim uncertain.

וְהִשְׁבִּ֨יעַ אֹתָ֜הּ הַכֹּהֵ֗ן וְאָמַ֤ר אֶל־הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ אִם־לֹ֨א שָׁכַ֥ב אִישׁ֙ אֹתָ֔ךְ וְאִם־לֹ֥א שָׂטִ֛ית טֻמְאָ֖ה תַּ֣חַת אִישֵׁ֑ךְ הִנָּקִ֕י מִמֵּ֛י הַמָּרִ֥ים הַֽמְאָרְרִ֖ים הָאֵֽלֶּה׃ The priest shall adjure the woman, saying to her, “If no other party has lain with you, if you have not gone astray in defilement while living in your husband’s household,*living in your husband’s household More precisely, “under [the jurisdiction of] your [marriage] partner.” NJPS “while married to your husband.” See the Dictionary under “householder,” “marriage,” and ’ish. be immune to harm from this water of bitterness that induces the spell.

וְאַ֗תְּ כִּ֥י שָׂטִ֛ית תַּ֥חַת אִישֵׁ֖ךְ וְכִ֣י נִטְמֵ֑את וַיִּתֵּ֨ן אִ֥ישׁ בָּךְ֙ אֶת־שְׁכׇבְתּ֔וֹ מִֽבַּלְעֲדֵ֖י אִישֵֽׁךְ׃ But if you have gone astray while living in your husband’s household*living in your husband’s household See note at v. 19. and have defiled yourself, if any party other than your husband has had carnal relations with you”—

וְהִשְׁבִּ֨יעַ הַכֹּהֵ֥ן אֶֽת־הָאִשָּׁה֮ בִּשְׁבֻעַ֣ת הָאָלָה֒ וְאָמַ֤ר הַכֹּהֵן֙ לָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה יִתֵּ֨ן יְהֹוָ֥ה אוֹתָ֛ךְ לְאָלָ֥ה וְלִשְׁבֻעָ֖ה בְּת֣וֹךְ עַמֵּ֑ךְ בְּתֵ֨ת יְהֹוָ֤ה אֶת־יְרֵכֵךְ֙ נֹפֶ֔לֶת וְאֶת־בִּטְנֵ֖ךְ צָבָֽה׃ here the priest shall administer the curse of adjuration to the woman, as the priest goes on to say to the woman—“may יהוה make you a curse and an imprecation among your people, as יהוה causes your thigh to sag and your belly to distend;*distend Meaning of Heb. uncertain.

וּ֠בָ֠אוּ הַמַּ֨יִם הַמְאָרְרִ֤ים הָאֵ֙לֶּה֙ בְּֽמֵעַ֔יִךְ לַצְבּ֥וֹת בֶּ֖טֶן וְלַנְפִּ֣ל יָרֵ֑ךְ וְאָמְרָ֥ה הָאִשָּׁ֖ה אָמֵ֥ן ׀ אָמֵֽן׃ may this water that induces the spell enter your body, causing the belly to distend and the thigh to sag.” And the woman shall say, “Amen, amen!”

וְ֠כָתַ֠ב אֶת־הָאָלֹ֥ת הָאֵ֛לֶּה הַכֹּהֵ֖ן בַּסֵּ֑פֶר וּמָחָ֖ה אֶל־מֵ֥י הַמָּרִֽים׃ The priest shall put these curses down in writing and rub it off into the water of bitterness.

וְהִשְׁקָה֙ אֶת־הָ֣אִשָּׁ֔ה אֶת־מֵ֥י הַמָּרִ֖ים הַמְאָֽרְרִ֑ים וּבָ֥אוּ בָ֛הּ הַמַּ֥יִם הַֽמְאָרְרִ֖ים לְמָרִֽים׃ He is to make the woman drink the water of bitterness that induces the spell, so that the spell-inducing water may enter into her to bring on bitterness.

וְלָקַ֤ח הַכֹּהֵן֙ מִיַּ֣ד הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה אֵ֖ת מִנְחַ֣ת הַקְּנָאֹ֑ת וְהֵנִ֤יף אֶת־הַמִּנְחָה֙ לִפְנֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וְהִקְרִ֥יב אֹתָ֖הּ אֶל־הַמִּזְבֵּֽחַ׃ Then the priest shall take from the woman’s hand the meal offering of jealousy, elevate the meal offering before יהוה, and present it on the altar.

וְקָמַ֨ץ הַכֹּהֵ֤ן מִן־הַמִּנְחָה֙ אֶת־אַזְכָּ֣רָתָ֔הּ וְהִקְטִ֖יר הַמִּזְבֵּ֑חָה וְאַחַ֛ר יַשְׁקֶ֥ה אֶת־הָאִשָּׁ֖ה אֶת־הַמָּֽיִם׃ The priest shall scoop out of the meal offering a token part of it and turn it into smoke on the altar. Last, he shall make the woman drink the water.

וְהִשְׁקָ֣הּ אֶת־הַמַּ֗יִם וְהָיְתָ֣ה אִֽם־נִטְמְאָה֮ וַתִּמְעֹ֣ל מַ֣עַל בְּאִישָׁהּ֒ וּבָ֨אוּ בָ֜הּ הַמַּ֤יִם הַמְאָֽרְרִים֙ לְמָרִ֔ים וְצָבְתָ֣ה בִטְנָ֔הּ וְנָפְלָ֖ה יְרֵכָ֑הּ וְהָיְתָ֧ה הָאִשָּׁ֛ה לְאָלָ֖ה בְּקֶ֥רֶב עַמָּֽהּ׃ Once he has made her drink the water—if she has defiled herself by breaking faith with her husband, the spell-inducing water shall enter into her to bring on bitterness, so that her belly shall distend and her thigh shall sag; and the wife shall become a curse among her people.

וְאִם־לֹ֤א נִטְמְאָה֙ הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וּטְהֹרָ֖ה הִ֑וא וְנִקְּתָ֖ה וְנִזְרְעָ֥ה זָֽרַע׃ But if the woman has not defiled herself and is pure, she shall be unharmed and able to retain seed.

זֹ֥את תּוֹרַ֖ת הַקְּנָאֹ֑ת אֲשֶׁ֨ר תִּשְׂטֶ֥ה אִשָּׁ֛ה תַּ֥חַת אִישָׁ֖הּ וְנִטְמָֽאָה׃ This is the ritual in cases of jealousy, when a woman goes astray while living in her husband’s household,*living in her husband’s household Cf. note at v. 19. and defiles herself,

א֣וֹ אִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֨ר תַּעֲבֹ֥ר עָלָ֛יו ר֥וּחַ קִנְאָ֖ה וְקִנֵּ֣א אֶת־אִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וְהֶעֱמִ֤יד אֶת־הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ לִפְנֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעָ֤שָׂה לָהּ֙ הַכֹּהֵ֔ן אֵ֥ת כׇּל־הַתּוֹרָ֖ה הַזֹּֽאת׃ or when a fit of jealousy comes over a husband and he is wrought up over his wife: the woman shall be made to stand before יהוה and the priest shall carry out all this ritual with her.

וְנִקָּ֥ה הָאִ֖ישׁ מֵעָוֺ֑ן וְהָאִשָּׁ֣ה הַהִ֔וא תִּשָּׂ֖א אֶת־עֲוֺנָֽהּ׃ {פ}
The man*man More precisely, the “party” who initiated the proceeding (v. 15). See the Dictionary under ’ish. shall be clear of guilt; but that woman*that woman I.e., the guilty one in the initial case. See the first note at v. 18. shall suffer for her guilt.

click here: Numbers 5:11 with Connections (sefaria.org)

 

[rosends]

A woman suspected of adultery, having been warned, can be (if she maintains innocence) put through a ritual which will, by dint of divine power, reveal her guilt or innocence. If she is guilty, she suffers from some sort of physical punishment. If she is innocent, she doesn't receive that punishment. What exactly is your question.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Rather than to start a thread for another individual topic, I would like to ask another question: What is the viewpoint of Torath Mosheh Jews on Numbers 5:11-31. And you can either translate what the Hebrew means, or just explain what those verses are meaning along with Jewish commentaries on those verses. Either way, I will take you word for what you say about those verses.

click here: Numbers 5:11 with Connections (sefaria.org)

This one is a bit complicated because it requires a good knowledge of both the witten Torah and the oral Torah. Also, the words used in English - often require a Torath Mosheh Jew to give you a good amount of commentary on what they mean. For example, the English word "adultry" doesn't mean exactly what the Hebrew words mean for this particular area. (Green brackets)

At the moment I will give the short version. At a later time I will break it down based ont he Hebrew.

The only way such a process can even be enacted is if it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that Hashem is supporting the Israeli Torah based nation. If this is not established 100% w/o question the process cannot be performed.

1. The Rambam explains in the Mishnah Torah Hilchoth Sotah that this is a situation where a Torah based Jewish man has warned/advised his wife not to be alone/including hiding it with a particular man. In Hebrew we call this, (התיחדות).
   • One side of it is that in Torah based Jewish culture a man being alone with a married woman/vice versa is avoided due to the problems such contact can cause.
   • The second side of it is that the man in question is "concerned" about the well being of his wife, from a Torah based perspective, of being concerned. Meaning, his reasoning is for the sake of knowing that the type of contact is forbidden and will destructive to his wife. His concern has to be for reasons that are pure and without question if analayzed by the Torah based Jewish community. Red brackets.
   • Last, it is forbidden for said man to "warn" his wife using harsh language, violence, or out of jealousy. (Note the Hebrew word used does not translate exactly into the jeolousy that is common in English.) Green Brackets below.

1. The only way for the process, mentioned in the written Torah, to take place is if
   • The husband in question informed his wife of his concerns privately first to try and convince her of his concerns.
   • The husband in question, after his wife continued contact with said man, has had her husband's concerns brought up in front of Torah based witnesses.
   • There are two or more witnesses to her meeting privately with said man she was warned about,
   • The wife in question denies the contact and agrees to do the process. She can say no at any point. If she is being pressured then the whole thing is thrown out.

In order to understand this concept you have to understand that the issue at hand is with the Ketuba, the marriage agreement. She can refuse the process and her and husband can divorce with the terms of the marriage contract being annulled.

In a situation where this process cannot be done or won't be done then the two divorce with the marraige contract being annulled, again only if there are witnesses to the fact that said act even took place.

 

[Swede01]

I agree, Reform Judaism is a bit foreign to me as stated before in this thread.

Do you have any suggestions for the situation that @Swede01 described of him wanting to convert to Reform Judaism with the restrictions he mentioned?

Yeah is there any reform jew in here who knows?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yeah is there any reform jew in here who knows?

As was stated by @RabbiO, I am not erudite in the reform movement. I wouldn't know.