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Judaism and homosexuality

CMike

Well-Known Member
Conservatives believe the Torah isn't Divine, but Divine-inspired, and therefore there was room for mistake. It doesn't mean they don't care about what God says, it means they aren't convinced God said all those things. (I think...)

And as Levite explains, because there was never a reliable precedent to teach us about homosexuality, he suggests that we are simply misinterpreting these words because it makes no sense to him that God would doom 10% of the Jewish population to a life of unhappiness.

Perhaps the correct way to debate this would be to analyze the sentence word by word and see if it can be interpreted in any other way...
1) There is no actual evidence that 10% of the population is homosexual

2) There is no actual conclusive evidence what causes it. I think it's a psychological disorder. However, it can't be proved either way.

3) What about pedophiles? They have urges to have sex with children? What about if someone wants to marry their mother?

Why should someone have to surpress their urges? Because that's what makes us different than animals.

4) There isn't much interpretation needed. G-D clearly states an abomination.

To twist it around to make it mean whatever you want, means that you
a) don't believe that G-D said it
b) don't care.

It doesn't have to make sense to Levite. When the Torah was given to the jews, they said "we will do and we will understand". Doing is more important than understanding.

5) What precedent is needed? G-D said it was an abomination.

Dan creating an interpretation is not caring about what G-D said. The Torah is based on the intention of G-D, not based on leftist "stylish" jews.

That is what christians do with the Torah. They twist it around to make it fit their beliefs, rather than their beliefs be based on what G-D said and meant.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
1) There is no actual evidence that 10% of the population is homosexual

2) There is no actual conclusive evidence what causes it. I think it's a psychological disorder. However, it can't be proved either way.

3) What about pedophiles? They have urges to have sex with children? What about if someone wants to marry their mother?

Why should someone have to surpress their urges? Because that's what makes us different than animals.

4) There isn't much interpretation needed. G-D clearly states an abomination.

To twist it around to make it mean whatever you want, means that you
a) don't believe that G-D said it
b) don't care.

It doesn't have to make sense to Levite. When the Torah was given to the jews, they said "we will do and we will understand". Doing is more important than understanding.

5) What precedent is needed? G-D said it was an abomination.

Dan creating an interpretation is not caring about what G-D said. The Torah is based on the intention of G-D, not based on leftist "stylish" jews.

That is what christians do with the Torah. They twist it around to make it fit their beliefs, rather than their beliefs be based on what G-D said and meant.

You do know that I've brought many of the same points as you, and agree with them, which is why I an Orthodox.
Even though I believe in certain things, I like to try and understand others' point of view.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
You do know that I've brought many of the same points as you, and agree with them, which is why I an Orthodox.
Even though I believe in certain things, I like to try and understand others' point of view.
I understand their point of view. I disagree with their point of view.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
No, that is not the only conclusion. On might also conclude that the verses reflected the homophobic attitudes of the author, i.e., that they are simply and grievously wrong.

Even though I don't believe that the Torah was literally written by God, I do believe it was written by prophets, who were doing their best to put into words they could comprehend and pass on the experience of what they received in the revelatory visions they had.

So while I can admit that perhaps the authors had homophobic attitudes that colored their views, I cannot simply dismiss the verses entirely and write them off as mere products of homophobia. I truly believe that any verse in Torah can-- at least in theory-- be interpreted productively.

If we had the power of the Tanna'im to interpret, I would say that the two verses in question refer specifically to homosexual acts done in the context of avodah zarah (since the verses are bracketed by commandments about avodah zarah, an excellent argument could be made that that is specifically the context they were intended to refer to, which is fine, since we are also commanded not to have heterosexual sex in the context of avodah zarah, either). But modern rabbis lack that power, so the best we can do is to render the verses unusable for practical halachah until that power is reinstated, when the moshiach comes.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Even though I don't believe that the Torah was literally written by God, I do believe it was written by prophets, who were doing their best to put into words they could comprehend and pass on the experience of what they received in the revelatory visions they had.
Of course, but having said that you've said relatively little. I readily assume that most prophets from most religions were doing the best they could given their cultural and intellectual limitations. But this does not grant their "revelatory visions" the status of holy writ.

So while I can admit that perhaps the authors had homophobic attitudes that colored their views, I cannot simply dismiss the verses entirely and write them off as mere products of homophobia. I truly believe that any verse in Torah can-- at least in theory-- be interpreted productively.
I'm not sure why these two sentences are bound together. It's almost as if you are saying ...
I truly believe that any verse in Torah can-- at least in theory-- be interpreted productively. -- therefore -- ... while I can admit that perhaps the authors had homophobic attitudes that colored their views, I cannot simply dismiss the verses entirely and write them off as mere products of homophobia.
... which is obviously nonsense. One's ability to reframe or otherwise rationalize xenophobic pronouncements makes them no less faulty. And while I appreciate the creative efforts taken to make such verses at least minimally palatable, they retain the quality of a tortured obeisance to literalism.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
If we had the power of the Tanna'im to interpret, I would say that the two verses in question refer specifically to homosexual acts done in the context of avodah zarah (since the verses are bracketed by commandments about avodah zarah, an excellent argument could be made.... But modern rabbis lack that power....

And it is here that, as you might suspect, I must reluctantly, but respectfully, disagree.

For the reason you set forth, and for other reasons, I believe the traditional interpretation is most probably incorrect. It is obvious that the verses in Vayikra condemn certain same sex act actitvity under some circumstance, but it is far from obvious that it is a blanket condemnation of homosexuality.

In an earlier post I brought up the oven at Aknai for a reason, but no one took the bait.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Do you honestly believe that?

Do I honestly believe that the interpretation is most probably wrong? Yes
Do I honestly believe that the 2 verses condemn some sort of same sex activity under some circumstance? Yes
Do I honestly believe that the 2 verses are not a blanket condemnation of homosexuality? Yes
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Of course, but having said that you've said relatively little. I readily assume that most prophets from most religions were doing the best they could given their cultural and intellectual limitations. But this does not grant their "revelatory visions" the status of holy writ.

I cannot speak to other prophets from other religions. But in terms of our own prophets and their revelations, yes, it actually does grant them the status of holy writ. That is why we have a fixed canon of Tanach, and are able to use verses from nevi'im as prooftexts to support halachic arguments.

It is important for me to understand the text as being a product of divine inspiration through human agency because I do believe that the Written Torah we have is not perfect: it requires the human tikkunim which we are empowered to create within the paradigm of torah sheb'al peh. This is to my understanding the most important facet of the concept of dibrah torah ki'lshon b'nai adam, that because the Written Torah is set down in the idiom (both linguistic and cultural) of the time and place of those who wrote it, we must continually re-examine and reinterpret it as our lashon (both linguistic and cultural) evolves.

But we do this through halachah and aggadah, not by simply junking verses we don't like, and just writing them off to ignorance.

I'm not sure why these two sentences are bound together. It's almost as if you are saying ...... which is obviously nonsense. One's ability to reframe or otherwise rationalize xenophobic pronouncements makes them no less faulty. And while I appreciate the creative efforts taken to make such verses at least minimally palatable, they retain the quality of a tortured obeisance to literalism.

I think you are forgetting that, first of all, pshat is not the only kind of meaning there is-- it isn't even always the applicable halachic meaning. And second of all, pshat is what our Rabbis tell us it is. The Perushim and Tanna'im, who had broad and deep powers of interpretation we no longer enjoy, could tell us what we were to consider pshat and what not-- so for example, when they teach us that 'ayin tachat 'ayin means financial reparations resulting from a judicial process, they indicate that we are to understand that as the pshat of that verse-- that we are not to conclude that literally removing someone's eye if they have knocked out someone's eye is in any way an acceptable reading, even if it is a reading we do not use in application.

So when I say that I presume there is a reading of those two verses in Vayikra that does not indicate a blanket ban on homosexuality and all that entails, I mean just that. Maybe that is a limitation of context, as I described above, and which RabbiO seems to feel is a correct and justifiable reading; maybe it is restricting application to some drash or remez or even sohd that I cannot guess at. Or maybe it is a clarification of what is pshat, which I do not know and would not have the power to declare if I did.

Hence my conclusion that the verses should be put into halachic abeyance until Eliyahu ha-Navi and the moshiach come to teach us.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
And it is here that, as you might suspect, I must reluctantly, but respectfully, disagree.

For the reason you set forth, and for other reasons, I believe the traditional interpretation is most probably incorrect. It is obvious that the verses in Vayikra condemn certain same sex act actitvity under some circumstance, but it is far from obvious that it is a blanket condemnation of homosexuality.

In an earlier post I brought up the oven at Aknai for a reason, but no one took the bait.

When what is in the Torah can mean can mean anything, than what is in the Torah means nothing.

The passage is extremely obvious. It doesn't make the abomination statement based on "some circumstances".
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
When what is in the Torah can mean can mean anything, than what is in the Torah means nothing.

Really? Shiv'im panim l'Torah. Hafoch v'hafoch bah ki d'kula bah. And so forth. Our Rabbis seem to have had no problem with the idea that every single word of Torah has within it potentially infinite meanings.

If you wanted rigid literalism, you should've been a Tzedoki.

The passage is extremely obvious. It doesn't make the abomination statement based on "some circumstances".

It's obvious? And that's the end of the story? Despite the fact that those two verses represent the only usage of the form mishkevei in the Torah? Despite the fact that there are any number of verses just as apparently obvious that our Rabbis interpreted in ways entirely unlike what the apparent pshat seems to indicate?

The only reason I can think of to adamantly refuse to reinterpret those two verses when so many other examples of radical reinterpretation exist in our tradition would be because of a desire to retain the meaning current in traditional halachah. And that seems like abysmal theology to me-- certainly not a theology I could envision anyone espousing who has ever been close to anyone gay.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Really? Shiv'im panim l'Torah. Hafoch v'hafoch bah ki d'kula bah. And so forth. Our Rabbis seem to have had no problem with the idea that every single word of Torah has within it potentially infinite meanings.

If you wanted rigid literalism, you should've been a Tzedoki.



It's obvious? And that's the end of the story? Despite the fact that those two verses represent the only usage of the form mishkevei in the Torah? Despite the fact that there are any number of verses just as apparently obvious that our Rabbis interpreted in ways entirely unlike what the apparent pshat seems to indicate?

The only reason I can think of to adamantly refuse to reinterpret those two verses when so many other examples of radical reinterpretation exist in our tradition would be because of a desire to retain the meaning current in traditional halachah. And that seems like abysmal theology to me-- certainly not a theology I could envision anyone espousing who has ever been close to anyone gay.
No matter how you twist around G-D still stated in that passage that homosexual behavior is an abomination.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
No matter how you twist around G-D still stated in that passage that homosexual behavior is an abomination.

20:13 reads
ואיש אשר ישכב את זכר משכבי אשה

It could have, but does not, read
ואיש אשר ישכב את איש משכבי אשה

Think about it.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
20:13 reads
ואיש אשר ישכב את זכר משכבי אשה

It could have, but does not, read
ואיש אשר ישכב את איש משכבי אשה

Think about it.

This so reminds me of how the christians treat the Torah.

יג. וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם מוֹת יוּמָתוּ דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם

13. And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
This so reminds me of how the christians treat the Torah.

יג. וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם מוֹת יוּמָתוּ דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם

13. And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves.

Sure, the fact that the section is bracketed by verses explaining that the 'arayot are specifically given to separate us from the peoples of Canaan and of Egypt and their practices is probably just a coincidence.

And the fact that the word to'evah is used in Devarim, in Melachim, in Yishayah, Yechezkel, Yirmiyah, and a few other places as well as a specific euphemism for idols and idolatrous practices-- I'm sure that's probably quite a coincidence also, right?

It's funny how when the verse gets drashed by someone you respect, it's like Torah mi-Sinai, but when the drash is suggested by someone you don't respect, it's like Christianity....
 
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