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Judaism and homosexuality

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Dan -

Thank you for bringing the question from the Orthodox DIR to the more general Judaism
DIR.

As you know I am not Orthodox and, despite my friend Avi's belief that I am a closet Conservative, I am not Conservative either.

The last thing I posted on the other thread was in response to your noting that the Conservative position was different than the Orthodox. Because it appeared to me that your knowledge of the Conservative position was based solely on a brief comment by a Conservative rabbi, and because it appeared to me that CMike's position was a knee jerk reaction of if it's not Orthodox, feh!, I thought it might be useful to provide the following document from 2006.

http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/si...er_dignity.pdf

Homosexuality, Human Dignity & Halakhah: A Combined Responsum For The Committee On Jewish Law And Standards

My own position is - take note of this, Avi - more liberal and I will address that a little ways down the road.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I read part of it. It's nauseating.

I love the way they refer to the Torah as the "ancient" writings.

Sounds like the Christians to me.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Nauseating?

I also read part of it. I found it to be an interesting discussion on bringing Torah into the modern day. Sounds like Jews have always sounded, when discussing the Law.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I was holding back when I called it nauseating.

What G-D said doesn't change to make it "stylish".

I find it disturbing that these "people" seek to "modernize" what G-D said.

G-D calls it an abomination. It's part of Torah law.

In fact, in the list of Torah laws of what not to do, homosexual behavior is one of the only sins here to be called an abomination. That is because it's particularly depraved.

Leviticus - Chapter 18 (Parshah Acharei Mot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Then you should be disturbed with every tradition in Judaism. Rabbis and sages have continually interpreted and adapted the laws to changing facts and circumstances, since Moses.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Then you should be disturbed with every tradition in Judaism. Rabbis and sages have continually interpreted and adapted the laws to changing facts and circumstances, since Moses.

They have clarified what is murkey so jews can execute it.

However, what G-D said doesn't change.

And what he said about homosexual behavior is crystal clear. He calls it an abomination.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
They have clarified what is murkey so jews can execute it...

However, what G-D said doesn't change.

And what he said about homosexual behavior is crystal clear. He calls it an abomination.

Perhaps we need to discuss the implications of the oven at Aknai.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Either way G-D calls homosexual behavior an abomination.

That left wing jews ignore this or seek to change it so it fits into their left wing stylish agenda doesn't change G-D's words.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Either way G-D calls homosexual behavior an abomination.

That left wing jews ignore this or seek to change it so it fits into their left wing stylish agenda doesn't change G-D's words.

Or are they words attributed to God by the authors? ;)

My feeling is that whom Joe goes to bed with is of not my concern as long as it is consensual and between adults, and if Joe's actions offend God, then God can deal with him.

Shabbat shalom
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
Please do.

I'm not asking or expecting that you agree with it, but I did post the link for a reason.

I ended up reading some of it, but it quite frankly wasn't capable of keeping my attention for 30 something pages...

Let us just analyze the conclusion though.

1.
The explicit biblical ban on anal sex between men remains in effect. Gay men are instructed to refrain from anal sex.
Nothing to debate here.

2. Heterosexual marriage between two Jews remains the halakhic ideal. For homosexuals who are incapable of maintaining a
heterosexual relationship, the rabbinic prohibitions that have been associated with other gay and lesbian intimate acts are
superseded based upon the Talmudic principle of kvod habriot, our obligation to preserve the human dignity of all people.
How can we decide which Mitzvah supercedes another? Why would Kvod Habriot allow homosexuality, but not allow a man who has natural urges for other sinful acts. What about cross-faith relations, taboo relations, pedophilia?


3. This ruling effectively normalizes the status of gay and lesbian Jews in the Jewish community. Extending the 1992 CJLS
consensus statement, gay and lesbian Jews are to be welcomed into our synagogues and other institutions as full members with
no restrictions. Furthermore, gay or lesbian Jews who demonstrate the depth of Jewish commitment, knowledge, faith and
desire to serve as rabbis, cantors and educators shall be welcomed to apply to our professional schools and associations.118
I agree with half of this. I believe any Jew who isn't dangerous should have unrestricted access to synagogues and other institutions.

I think it would be extremely difficult for a gay man to become a rabbi. If a man wanted to become a rabbi, and allow his congregation to know that he is a homosexual, I'd have no problem with it if he made an example of a homosexual man who was able to live according to Jewish law (my opinion of it).

Do you believe a Rabbi who continuously, and publicly sins without shame should remain rabbi of your congregation?

Obviously, different denominations of Judaism with have different definitions for what a sin is, but you know how Orthodoxy feels about homosexuality which explains why it would be way too difficult for a homosexual to become a Rabbi.



4. We are not prepared at this juncture to rule upon the halakhic status of gay and lesbian relationships. To do so would
require establishing an entirely new institution in Jewish law that treats not only the ceremonies and legal instruments
appropriate for creating homosexual unions but also the norms for the dissolution of such unions. This responsum does not
provide kiddushin for same-sex couples. Nonetheless, we consider stable, committed, Jewish relationships to be as necessary
and beneficial for homosexuals and their families as they are for heterosexuals. Promiscuity is not acceptable for either
homosexual or heterosexual relationships. Such relationships should be conducted in consonance with the values set out in
the RA pastoral letter on intimate relationships, “This Is My Beloved, This Is My Friend”: A Rabbinic Letter on Human
Intimacy.119 The celebration of such a union is appropriate.

So the conservative movement has not officially allowed homosexual marriages? I seem to recall Levite, who self-identifies as a Conservadox Jew, and therefore stricter when it comes to Halakha than the average Conservative Jew say that he has officiated in gay weddings?

Levite, if you're reading this, care to comment?
 
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dantech

Well-Known Member
My feeling is that whom Joe goes to bed with is of not my concern as long as it is consensual and between adults, and if Joe's actions offend God, then God can deal with him.

Shabbat shalom

I don't think anyone has argued with that. We all know that God will judge and deal with everyone as fairly as possible.

Would you not mind if Joe, the town's regular guy, or Mike, the Synagogue's cantor, had an intimate relationship with his sister?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I ended up reading some of it, but it quite frankly wasn't capable of keeping my attention for 30 something pages...

Let us just analyze the conclusion though.

1.
Nothing to debate here.


How can we decided with Mitzvah supercedes another? Why would Kvod Habriot allow homosexuality, but not allow a man who has natural urges for other sinful acts. What about cross-faith relations, taboo relations, pedophilia?



I agree with half of this. I believe any Jew who isn't dangerous should have unrestricted access to synagogues and other institutions.

I think it would be extremely difficult for a gay man to become a rabbi. If a man wanted to become a rabbi, and allow his congregation to know that he is a homosexual, I'd have no problem with it if he made an example of a homosexual man who was able to live according to Jewish law (my opinion of it).

Do you believe a Rabbi who continuously, and publicly sins without shame should remain rabbi of your congregation?

Obviously, different denominations of Judaism with have different definitions for what a sin is, but you know how Orthodoxy feels about homosexuality which explains why it would be way too difficult for a homosexual to become a Rabbi.





So the conservative movement has not officially allowed homosexual marriages? I seem to recall Levite, who self-identifies as a Conservadox Jew, and therefore stricter when it comes to Halakha than the average Conservative Jew say that he has officiated in gay weddings?

Levite, if you're reading this, care to comment?

I read part of it. I didn't bother with 36 pages.

What if a person decides to marry or have sex with a close relative?

What if a person wants to have sex with a minor child?

A man not following bad urges is what seperates us from animals.

I too don't think the person should be shunned. However, that behavior isn't acceptable either.

No matter how you cut it, G-D clearly states that sex between a man and a man is an abomination.

It may be stylish in leftist circles, but it's against Torah law.

For the most part the only way other jews will know if a person is a homosexual is if he tell them. And publically displaying what G-D calls an abomination certainly takes him out as any type of jewish leader.

Also if you look at the list of prohibitions in the chapter where homosexual relations are listed, this is the only one where it also it's it's an abomination.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't think anyone has argued with that. We all know that God will judge and deal with everyone as fairly as possible.

Would you not mind if Joe, the town's regular guy, or Mike, the Synagogue's cantor, had an intimate relationship with his sister?

Because of that genetic danger, I do believe a state has a right to ban it legally, but what people decide to do even if it's negative is not something we can always control. As far as the sin aspect is concerned, God can deal with that.

BTW, there's a rumor that it's genetic problems that may lead to one becoming a rabbi, but I'm not 100% certain that I believe that. Makes sense though.

:run:

Shabbat shalom
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
While I admire the Dorff-Nevins-Reisner teshuvah for its scholarship (Dorff and Nevins both having been among my teachers), my primary objection to it is that it does not go far enough. I have been trying to assemble a bet din in order to issue a takkanah l'akor davar min ha-torah (what essentially amounts to a rabbinic injunction rendering the two verses from which we derive our historic prohibitions of homosexual acts incapable of usage for practical halachah), such a takkanah to be of limited duration (1000 years or until the moshiach comes, whichever is first). I have several rabbis willing to join me for a bet din, but I am trying to get 200 rabbis total to add their names to the takkanah, which would then give it extreme reach and latitude.

Rav Dorff's solution not only still renders impermissible a central facet of gay male sexual relations, but it has to run itself around in circles to even get that far.

I am much more inclined to simply say that, given that it is theologically inconceivable that God would create ten percent of the human race to be either doomed to inevitable sin or doomed to inevitable wretchedness and solitude, we can only conclude that whatever the original meaning of those two verses in Vayikra, it cannot be a universal ban on homosexuality. But since there have been no reliable precedents in the tradition for interpreting it otherwise, we can only assume that we do not know how to interpret it correctly, and so must wait for Eliyahu ha-Navi to come and show us how those verses are to be understood in such a way that gay and lesbian Jews are able to have full lives and sanctified relationships.

Gay and lesbian Jews have the right to live their lives as God made them. And, even if we set aside the obvious ethical motivations for relieving their suffering, we are not in a position to be turning away people who want to live Jewish lives, observing mitzvot and raising Jewish children, simply because we are unwilling to act. This is a classic example of Eit la-asot l'Hashem, hefiru toratechah ("A time to act for God, to abrogate the Torah") as the Gemara brings to support various radical changes that have been necessary, and as several of our great sages have noted as a principle for doing so in exigent circumstances.

I have done gay and lesbian weddings, and would gladly do so again-- but I will not use kiddushin and a classic ketubah for a gay/lesbian weddding, since the halachah of kiddushin is simply not constructed in such a way that men or women can acquire one another in that fashion. I will only marry gay couples using an alternative methodology-- however, to be fair, I also don't approve of men acquiring women using kiddushin, either, and always recommend to the straight couples that I marry that they use the Brit Ahuvim marriage created by Rabbi Rachel Adler and modified by her son Rabbi Amitai Adler. I only marry straight couples using kiddushin if they insist on it.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
It's really simple if you care about what G-D says in the Torah, it's very clear. G-D calls it an abomination.

If you want to twist what G-D said to make it "stylish" and so it fits into a leftist agenda, then it really doesn't matter what the Torah says about it to you.

You don't care.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
It's really simple if you care about what G-D says in the Torah, it's very clear. G-D calls it an abomination.

If you want to twist what G-D said to make it "stylish" and so it fits into a leftist agenda, then it really doesn't matter what the Torah says about it to you.

You don't care.
Conservatives believe the Torah isn't Divine, but Divine-inspired, and therefore there was room for mistake. It doesn't mean they don't care about what God says, it means they aren't convinced God said all those things. (I think...)

And as Levite explains, because there was never a reliable precedent to teach us about homosexuality, he suggests that we are simply misinterpreting these words because it makes no sense to him that God would doom 10% of the Jewish population to a life of unhappiness.

Perhaps the correct way to debate this would be to analyze the sentence word by word and see if it can be interpreted in any other way...
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., given that it is theologically inconceivable that God would create ten percent of the human race to be either doomed to inevitable sin or doomed to inevitable wretchedness and solitude, we can only conclude that whatever the original meaning of those two verses in Vayikra, it cannot be a universal ban on homosexuality.
No, that is not the only conclusion. On might also conclude that the verses reflected the homophobic attitudes of the author, i.e., that they are simply and grievously wrong.
 
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