Jordan Peterson on Sex

[Kenny]

Well no, historians examine the causes of events, as gleaned from the sources available to them. So if Unwin were right we should expect to see his ideas reflected in historical theories.

As has been pointed out, the (Western) Roman empire fell for other reasons, after Christianity had been adopted as the official religion. And besides, who is to say that the fall of the empire indicated any deterioration in the society? Perhaps it improved, became less bloodthirsty and brutal. Nowadays we frown on imperialism, don’t we?

And going - for the sake of argument- by the rather fascist yardstick of empire as a measure of social vitality, there are plenty of other counterexamples, for instance the USSR.

Or, to look as other religious societies today , do we think Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, are model societies we should strive to emulate?

I think this is a personal viewpoint. Of corse there are many factor, I have so much as said so... I fail to see how the adoption of Christianity means the failing of the Roman Empire.

 

[exchemist]

I think this is a personal viewpoint. Of corse there are many factor, I have so much as said so... I fail to see how the adoption of Christianity means the failing of the Roman Empire.

I don’t suggest it had anything to do with it. The simple points are:

1) the rise and fall of empires tells you nothing about the health of a society, and

2) the Western Roman empire fell after it became Christian, not when it was supposedly full of pagan debauchery.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is a difference between spiritual and natural... Not that one is special and the other isn't but rather a difference in understanding. If you want to classify "me" along with another 6 billion people as "special" - I thank you. Like any other subject, one can become spiritual if one desires.

You just tried to do that. I was just pointing out the arrogance in making such a claim. Especially when you can't demonstrate anything you're claiming and your claim has to do with you having special knowledge that others don't have.

 

[Kenny]

You just tried to do that. I was just pointing out the arrogance in making such a claim. Especially when you can't demonstrate anything you're claiming and your claim has to do with you having special knowledge that others don't have.

Arrogance for stating the obvious difference between you and I... hmmm... interesting usage of a word.

It isn't that I can't demonstrate... it is that you don't accept any manifestation of God's goodness and mercy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think this is a personal viewpoint. Of corse there are many factor, I have so much as said so... I fail to see how the adoption of Christianity means the failing of the Roman Empire.

Nah. Historians do widely attribute Christianity a reason for Rome's fall. There were others, of course, such as an economic drain from over exertion and stretching of such a massive army and an over reliance on slaves, rebellions and raids by those Rome invaded and repressed (with some brutally devastating losses here and there) and internal political corruption, but the rise of Christianity and the strife, tensions and hostilities that came from Constantine's convertion that pitted the Old Ways against the New with the change in official religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

I did not have a good opinion about Jordan Peterson before.

Glad to realize that I was not wrong.

At this point I am sincerely worried about his mental health.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I thought @Estro Felino only spoke for all Italians but seemingly they speak for all Europeans.

Perhaps Brexit made more sense than I thought, then...ahem...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Nah. Historians do widely attribute Christianity a reason for Rome's fall. There were others, of course, such as an economic drain from over exertion and stretching of such a massive army and an over reliance on slaves, rebellions and raids by those Rome invaded and repressed (with some brutally devastating losses here and there) and internal political corruption, but the rise of Christianity and the strife, tensions and hostilities that came from Constantine's convertion that pitted the Old Ways against the New with the change in official religion.

How hard are you willing to defend this?
Are you suggesting it was a key reason, or just 'one of many'?
Are you talking about the Western Empire or Eastern?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How hard are you willing to defend this?
Are you suggesting it was a key reason, or just 'one of many'?
Are you talking about the Western Empire or Eastern?

"A reason," and "there were others, of course" amd then listing a few other reasons is a given for "one of many."

 

[lewisnotmiller]

"A reason," and "there were others, of course" amd then listing a few other reasons is a given for "one of many."

Yeah, but then it becomes somewhat redundant.

My point is, I wouldn't overstate Christianity's role in the downfall of Rome. It's not high on the list in my opinion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah, but then it becomes somewhat redundant.

My point is, I wouldn't overstate Christianity's role in the downfall of Rome. It's not high on the list in my opinion.

It's still acknowledged as a reason, however.

 

[exchemist]

I did not have a good opinion about Jordan Peterson before.

Glad to realize that I was not wrong.

At this point I am sincerely worried about his mental health.

I agree. Some of his more recent pronouncements suggest he may be losing his grip on reality.

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, but then it becomes somewhat redundant.

My point is, I wouldn't overstate Christianity's role in the downfall of Rome. It's not high on the list in my opinion.

Good point

 

[SkepticThinker]

Arrogance for stating the obvious difference between you and I... hmmm... interesting usage of a word.

Nope, that's not what I said, Kenny.
Arrogance for claiming that you're more special than others and that only special people can understand the Bible.

It isn't that I can't demonstrate... it is that you don't accept any manifestation of God's goodness and mercy.

Nope, again. I'd accept reasonable evidence and argument, same as I would for any other claim.

Problem is, you don't seem to have that. Just inaccurate claims from an old book that I won't accept evidence. that I've never actually seen.
And another claim that the "evidence" is some special stuff that only special people can see. Well, that ain't evidence, Kenny.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree. Some of his more recent pronouncements suggest he may be losing his grip on reality.

Im convinced he's doing it for the money. Sure, he does believe some of the incredible nonsense coming from his mouth, but doing what he does now withiut doubt pays more than what he can make as a shrink and teacher. Those things don't pay much. Political and media spotlights frequently do once it's stuck on someone. Amd he has one stuck on him for awhile.
And not to mention it's easier money with tremendously less responsibility.

 

[exchemist]

Im convinced he's doing it for the money. Sure, he does believe some of the incredible nonsense coming from his mouth, but doing what he does now withiut doubt pays more than what he can make as a shrink and teacher. Those things don't pay much. Political and media spotlights frequently do once it's stuck on someone. Amd he has one stuck on him for awhile.
And not to mention it's easier money with tremendously less responsibility.

Maybe, but the guy has had run-ins with depression, addiction to antidepressants and has also gone in for a quack all-meat diet inspired by his mad wife, which has buggered up his metabolism. He had to move to Serbia (!) for a year to get it sorted out, apparently. So balance of mind is not to be presumed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe, but the guy has had run-ins with depression, addiction to antidepressants and has also gone in for a quack all-meat diet inspired by his mad wife, which has buggered up his metabolism. He had to move to Serbia (!) for a year to get it sorted out, apparently. So balance of mind is not to be presumed.

I'm not assuming he's a balanced. He is the man, after all, who told Sam Harris he lives his life as thiugh he believes god is real. I bring it up a lot, but anyone who would say that about Sam is making some public logical blunders that those in his position should avoid as habit.
But he's also got books to sell amd those mostly buying them apparently aren't the best thinkers or they'd know why comparing us to lobsters as he does is an eggregious error.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It's still acknowledged as a reason, however.

I mean...kinda.
It depends on 'by whom' as well as what you're suggesting the actual impact was. Some of the commonly accepted old tropes haven't held up well to more modern scrutiny, and some things not previously considered (eg. the impact of multiple pandemics in the period leading up to the fall of the Western Empire) are increasingly credible reasons for societal upheavals.