John 5:36-40 (Sola Scriptura)

[Unveiled Artist]

SHEEESH!!!! Thank gosh I wss going nuts. I thought you meant the actual book saves you.

We still disagree that we need this leatherbook to be saved. Any people have been saved without having a Bible. E v e r y one is different. That does not make them wrong.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

/points to unification/ what he said

 

[savagewind]

Pegg is saying knowledge (of scripture) is for salvation. But the very Bible they say we must know to be saved says "knowledge puffs up". Puffed up is bad not good.

We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 1 Corinthians 8:1

 

[Pegg]

Also if the Bible itself saves why arent people who are reading it all be saved? Salvation comes from the heart. Thats when the bible becomes your right hand man because Chrizt saved you first. You were born again and the bible is no longer words but His Word.

I dont think i've once said that the bible itself saves us. In fact i dont believe that at all... nor did Jesus for he told the Jews of his day :
John 5;39 “YOU are searching the Scriptures,+ because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.+40 And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life.+

Having the bible is not enough... people must know what is written in it AND accept what is written in it rather then change it for their own views and opinions. Unfortunately thats what people do when they read the bible... they read it, then discard what they read and carry on with their own views.

For example, how many christians believe that we have an eternal soul or spirit which survives the death of the body? Im sure you believe that too. Im sure you believe that the soul continues to live in heaven after you die. and im sure you believe the soul is eternal too.
Yet the bible does not say that. It says the opposite.

But people refuse to the belive that and they carry on with their own beliefs and that is why some people in Jesus day accepted that Jesus was the Messiah while others did not. Simply put, they refused to believe and put faith in Gods Word.

 

[savagewind]

It is in God's power to save a person's spirit for heaven. As a matter of fact Jehovah's Witnesses believe 144,000 souls WILL survive the death of their bodies.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay. That is kind of similiar to your views on scripture. God cant tell two people two ideas that contradict each other. While your view is your view to present it as a fact...as if another person is wrong for her views...is what i dislike.

A couple of us posters replied to you ealier thinking you were refering to the actual bible.

Also JW have different (not right or wrong but different) views than Catholics do (Ik a forner catholic) and likewise with other protestant denominations. Like my JW friend we can learn from each others beliefs.I find that hard to do with many Christians. I guess with her I am lucky.

Pegg is saying knowledge (of scripture) is for salvation. But the very Bible they say we must know to be saved says "knowledge puffs up". Puffed up is bad not good.

We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 1 Corinthians 8:1

I can see that. I know all the knowledge of the world cannot save a person as I see

I dont think i've once said that the bible itself saves us. In fact i dont believe that at all... nor did Jesus for he told the Jews of his day :
John 5;39 “YOU are searching the Scriptures,+ because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.+40 And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life.+

Having the bible is not enough... people must know what is written in it AND accept what is written in it rather then change it for their own views and opinions. Unfortunately thats what people do when they read the bible... they read it, then discard what they read and carry on with their own views.

For example, how many christians believe that we have an eternal soul or spirit which survives the death of the body? Im sure you believe that too. Im sure you believe that the soul continues to live in heaven after you die. and im sure you believe the soul is eternal too.
Yet the bible does not say that. It says the opposite.

But people refuse to the belive that and they carry on with their own beliefs and that is why some people in Jesus day accepted that Jesus was the Messiah while others did not. Simply put, they refused to believe and put faith in Gods Word.

 

[Pegg]

Okay. That is kind of similiar to your views on scripture. God cant tell two people two ideas that contradict each other. While your view is your view to present it as a fact...as if another person is wrong for her views...is what i dislike.

Thats a good point, God would never contradict himself. He would never tell us that we are going to live on after we die and tell us that our death is the end of our existence.

So in this situation, what is the solution? How do we determine which idea is true?

 

[savagewind]

Genesis 15:6
Abram believed God, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Belief in God not knowledge of scripture is Faith. Knowledge is not bad, but it is not first like the Jehovah's Witnesses teach it.

 

[savagewind]

Thats a good point, God would never contradict himself. He would never tell us that we are going to live on after we die and tell us that our death is the end of our existence.

So in this situation, what is the solution? How do we determine which idea is true?

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Personally, I have nevered pondered about the afterlife. I dont follow Christianity now but when I did it was always about now. It was an endless relationship of repenting to be back with God. I guess the best way is to find what each christian has in common. I mean you have halls, parishes, churches, and you worship the same God.

The bias of other christians saying "JW, catholics, mormons arent christian" type of thinking gets on my last nerve. My friend is very devoted to Christ. We both agree that Jesus is not God and she gave me how salvation is viewed from a no deified man. Takes a lot of time.

Christianity has a lot of history in repressing faiths they disagree with. It turns followers against each other and those who disagree. That is one big reason I dont practice. In order to be in fellowship with Christ you Must be in felowship with His body. Its a community and culture faith. We lost our tradition, our values, saying we dont need them we nust need Christ.

I could go on forever..but I dont know of a solid solution..the humbleness and patience to hear and accept differing viewpoints starts with us.

Thats a good point, God would never contradict himself. He would never tell us that we are going to live on after we die and tell us that our death is the end of our existence.

So in this situation, what is the solution? How do we determine which idea is true?

 

[Pegg]

Personally, I have nevered pondered about the afterlife. I dont follow Christianity now but when I did it was always about now. It was an endless relationship of repenting to be back with God. I guess the best way is to find what each christian has in common. I mean you have halls, parishes, churches, and you worship the same God.

The bias of other christians "JW, catholixs, mormons arent christian" type of thinking gets on my last nerve. My friend is very devoted to Christ. We both agree that Jesus is not God and she gave me how salvation is viewed from a no deified man. Takes a lot of time.

Christianity has a lot of history in repressing faiths they disagree with. It turns followers against each other and those who disagree. That is one big reason I dont practice. In order to be in fellowship with Christ you Must be in felowship with His body. Its a community and culture faith. We lost our tradition, our values, saying we dont need them we nust need Christ.

I could go on forever..but I dont know of a solid solution..the humbleness and patience to hear and accept differing viewpoints starts with us.

i agree with you that there is a lot of division in christianity. But dont you think that results when people base their ideas on various sources? If they all based their ideas on the same source, then logic should tell us that they would all be in agreement and there would be no divisions.

Jesus actually told us where we find the truth of any matter, he said:
John 17:17 Sanctify them* by means of the truth;+ your word is truth.

Thats why Jehovahs Witnesses are united all around the world. Thats why you can go to any kingdom hall in any country and you will hear the same message. We are united by Gods Word the bible and that is the source of our teachings because we 100% believe that Gods Word the bible is the truth of any matter. Unfortunately, not all christians accept Gods Word the bible as their truth....and if they dont, then how can they expect to gain salvation?

Its such a serious matter, life or death results from accepting Gods Word and thats why we place such strong emphasis on Sola Scripture!!!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Surpringly that is exactly the same thing the Catholic Church told me. No matter where you go in the world everyone at the same time in easter are saying they want to be christian and be initiated into the Church. All verses in Mass mirror that in other countries. Yet there are major differences in both denominations and both say their teachings (and traditions) come from scripture.

All denominations say they base their teachings on scripture. The problem is there is no human here to be the referee. It is all every other christians perspective of what "they" feel God tells them. They read the Bible from that same lense; so, scripture cannot differentiate it.

I dont know.

i agree with you that there is a lot of division in christianity. But dont you think that results when people base their ideas on various sources? If they all based their ideas on the same source, then logic should tell us that they would all be in agreement and there would be no divisions.

Jesus actually told us where we find the truth of any matter, he said:
John 17:17 Sanctify them* by means of the truth;+ your word is truth.

Thats why Jehovahs Witnesses are united all around the world. Thats why you can go to any kingdom hall in any country and you will hear the same message. We are united by Gods Word the bible and that is the source of our teachings because we 100% believe that Gods Word the bible is the truth of any matter. Unfortunately, not all christians accept Gods Word the bible as their truth....and if they dont, then how can they expect to gain salvation?

Its such a serious matter, life or death results from accepting Gods Word and thats why we place such strong emphasis on Sola Scripture!!!

 

[Pegg]

Surpringly that is exactly the same thing the Catholic Church told me. No matter where you go in the world everyone at the same time in easter are saying they want to be christian and be initiated into the Church. All verses in Mass mirror that in other countries. Yet there are major differences in both denominations and both say their teachings (and traditions) come from scripture.

All denominations say they base their teachings on scripture. The problem is there is no human here to be the referee. It is all every other christians perspective of what "they" feel God tells them. They read the Bible from that same lense; so, scripture cannot differentiate it.

I dont know.

The Borean's heard the preaching of the Apostle Paul. They didnt just accept what he told them though. They compared his teaching to the scriptures.

We can do the same. Whatever a church teaches can be compared to the scriptures for its truthfulness or accuracy.

The bible should be our compass or our measuring rod. If what we hear is different to what the bible states, then we should discard what we hear because it is Gods Word which is truth. He is the one we want to worship, so he is the one we must listen to.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That doesnt solve the problem of each denomination hearing words from God reading the same verses but geting out of bith something different. Even just between southern baptist and northern baptist (i call it) there are differences.

If God is actualy speaking to you and to john both of you should be able to go to the same scripture and with the same conclusion decide whether what you heard is from God. Everyone is reading the same scripture but believe differently. Both you and i included. What makes my interpretation from scripture false and yours true given we read the same book and in analogy heard the same God?

Thats probably why people are devorcing religion/worshiping in one community. I find this dangerous because it allows for even more false interpretations that are not corrected by an authoritive of scripture.

The Borean's heard the preaching of the Apostle Paul. They didnt just accept what he told them though. They compared his teaching to the scriptures.

We can do the same. Whatever a church teaches can be compared to the scriptures for its truthfulness or accuracy.

The bible should be our compass or our measuring rod. If what we hear is different to what the bible states, then we should discard what we hear because it is Gods Word which is truth. He is the one we want to worship, so he is the one we must listen to.

 

[Katzpur]

i agree with you that there is a lot of division in christianity. But dont you think that results when people base their ideas on various sources? If they all based their ideas on the same source, then logic should tell us that they would all be in agreement and there would be no divisions.

I think you're right up to a point. For instance, I can't imagine how anyone could come up with the Trinity, as defined in the Nicene Creed, by a simple reading of the Bible. Many Protestants claim to believe in Sola Scriptura, but also in the Trinity, when the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly based on Greek philosophical ideas of what God must be in order to be God. How they can do so is beyond me. On the other hand, I can see certain doctrines which are so vaguely spoken of in the Bible that it is easy to see how there could be many different interpretations of them.

Thats why Jehovahs Witnesses are united all around the world. Thats why you can go to any kingdom hall in any country and you will hear the same message.

Yes, the same is true of Mormonism.

Its such a serious matter, life or death results from accepting Gods Word and thats why we place such strong emphasis on Sola Scripture!!!

I guess my biggest problems with Sola Scriptura are that (1) the Bible doesn't claim to be the sole source of God's word. (I mean how could it? It's a collection of many books.) (2) The biblical canon has been changed many times over the centuries. Certain books that are now accepted as scripture weren't always accepted as scripture, and books that were once accepted as scripture aren't now accepted as scripture. For Sola Scriptura to even conceivably be a valid belief, it seems to me that the canon would have had to be determined once (and then never modified), and at a much earlier date than was the case.

 

[Pegg]

That doesnt solve the problem of each denomination hearing words from God reading the same verses but geting out of bith something different. Even just between southern baptist and northern baptist (i call it) there are differences.

If God is actualy speaking to you and to john both of you should be able to go to the same scripture and with the same conclusion decide whether what you heard is from God. Everyone is reading the same scripture but believe differently. Both you and i included. What makes my interpretation from scripture false and yours true given we read the same book and in analogy heard the same God?

lets do a little test

I'll give you a scripture and you tell me what it actually says, then tell me what your religious belief is.

Psalm 146: 3 Do not put your trust in princes*
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.+
4 His spirit* goes out, he returns to the ground;+
On that very day his thoughts perish

What is this verse telling us about the spirit of mankind?

Now, what is your personal religious belief regarding the spirit of mankind?

 

[Pegg]

I think you're right up to a point. For instance, I can't imagine how anyone could come up with the Trinity, as defined in the Nicene Creed, by a simple reading of the Bible. Many Protestants claim to believe in Sola Scriptura, but also in the Trinity, when the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly based on Greek philosophical ideas of what God must be in order to be God. How they can do so is beyond me. On the other hand, I can see certain doctrines which are so vaguely spoken of in the Bible that it is easy to see how there could be many different interpretations of them.

yeah thats a good example of a church teaching with no basis in scripture...yet they use certain vague scriptures, all too often taken out of context, and claim their idea is scriptural.

When a verse is vague, its easy to use it to justify a belief. But there is a way around that... the method used the by our governing body is this: If the idea contradicts any other verses, then the interpretation given to that vague scripture can't be correct. So they look for an interpretation which does not contradict any other verses.

Yes, the same is true of Mormonism.

I guess my biggest problems with Sola Scriptura are that (1) the Bible doesn't claim to be the sole source of God's word. (I mean how could it? It's a collection of many books.)

(2) The biblical canon has been changed many times over the centuries. Certain books that are now accepted as scripture weren't always accepted as scripture, and books that were once accepted as scripture aren't now accepted as scripture. For Sola Scriptura to even conceivably be a valid belief, it seems to me that the canon would have had to be determined once (and then never modified), and at a much earlier date than was the case.

the way the Jewish priests determined the hebrew canon was by the accuracy of the prophets writings and if the prophecy came true then they knew the writing was inspired by God. For example, it was the prophet Isaiah who foretold that the Jews would be saved from captivity to Babylon by a king named Cyrus. That prophecy was given 200 years before the event.
So the priests held onto the writings of Isiah for a long time before it became confirmed as true scripture. After Cyrus the Great overthrew the Babylonians, the book of Isaiah became part of the collection of the hebrew sacred scriptures.

The “Bible canon” denotes the catalog of inspired books worthy of being used as a basis for faith, doctrine, and conduct.

But the mere title and preservation of a religious book, nor its esteem by millions of people, do not prove that it is of divine authorship. It must contain internal proof of Divine Authorship for it to really be considered worthy of basing our teachings and faith on it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My personaly belief (below) is not close to scripture in regards to final authority in governing our spiritual life.

My point is john can read that same scripture you posted and get a whole different message and both of you as christians say you hear the same God. Who is correct?

lets do a little test

I'll give you a scripture and you tell me what it actually says, then tell me what your religious belief is.

Psalm 146: 3 Do not put your trust in princes*
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.+
4 His spirit* goes out, he returns to the ground;+
On that very day his thoughts perish

What is this verse telling us about the spirit of mankind?

Now, what is your personal religious belief regarding the spirit of mankind?

--My belief is completely opposite this verse. I do but my trust in man-my family,friends, and strangers who I built trust with over awhile. I depend on humanity because we are in this life together to help each other even though we differ.

I learn about myself and others by speaking to my ancestor spirits a d passed relatives. I do not believe in a supreme God diety. The best description I read of God is in my signature. (Whent and anne do believe in a Creator. I like the way they express "His" existence)

--I do believe salvation is by knowing your roots. It is here and now. We work together if its just interediate family to give each other kids teens adults foundations. We can ask were we come from but what is the point of asking where we are going. We dont know.

--I do believe in spirits of humans. Once we die we stay on earth to help our loved ones just as my grandmother helped her daughter after her death and continues to.

Most of my family I know believe in God. I know about their God through them; and, I show my respects. We just have different ways of seeing why we are here, how, and where we going. It is not wrong; its different

 

[Pegg]

My personaly belief (below) is not close to scripture in regards to final authority in governing our spiritual life.

My point is john can read that same scripture you posted and get a whole different message and both of you as christians say you hear the same God. Who is correct?

do you want to know who is correct?

It is the writer of the Psalm who is correct. Why? Because he was inspired, or directed by holy spirit, to write what he wrote. The bible presents Gods thoughts on the matter, not our own.

You can liken religious beliefs and opinions to a smorgasbord of food prepared by us and offered to God. We prepared them as offerings to God for worship. But how many of our offerings does he actually like? What a disaster it would be for us if we put so much effort and time into preparing all these dishes, and God comes and examines them and says "no sorry, i dont like your dish...nor do this persons dish.... Im not going near Johnny's dish... her dish over there is repulsive to me... no, im alergic to Peters dish.."

now we have a big problem because all these forms of worship are unacceptable to him. Where does that leave us?

The fact is that God has already told us what dish to prepare, he has told us the ingredients and how he likes it. But unfortunately we continue to bake our own pies.

--My belief is completely opposite this verse. I do but my trust in man-my family,friends, and strangers who I built trust with over awhile. I depend on humanity because we are in this life together to help each other even though we differ.

Its good to have people in our life whom we can trust. But there is also God whom we can trust and his word encourages us to do so:

Psalm 118: 8 It is better to take refuge in Jehovah
Than to trust in humans.

Psalm 40: 4 Happy is the man who trusts in Jehovah...'

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in Jehovah+ with all your heart,
And do not rely* on your own understanding.
In all your ways take notice of him,
And he will make your paths straight

Our life is not supplied to us by people. It is sustained by God himself therefore we are dependent on God for our very existence and our salvation is completely in his hands.... so putting our trust in him is a worthwhile goal.

I learn about myself and others by speaking to my ancestor spirits a d passed relatives. I do not believe in a supreme God diety. The best description I read of God is in my signature. (Whent and anne do believe in a Creator. I like the way they express "His" existence)

--I do believe salvation is by knowing your roots. It is here and now. We work together if its just interediate family to give each other kids teens adults foundations. We can ask were we come from but what is the point of asking where we are going. We dont know.

--I do believe in spirits of humans. Once we die we stay on earth to help our loved ones just as my grandmother helped her daughter after her death and continues to.

Most of my family I know believe in God. I know about their God through them; and, I show my respects. We just have different ways of seeing why we are here, how, and where we going. It is not wrong; its different

You've stated that you dont believe a Supreme God exists but your family do.
Logically, two opposing views cannot both be right. Either God exists or he doesnt. Both cannot be correct.

But this is a good example of that smorgasbord of beliefs. We offer the dishes we choose to offer. In the end, God will decide on what he likes and what he doesnt. At least he gives us the option of choosing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is the thing. Believers are creating so many offerings that "they do not know" to their God is wrong. No offense but you are not an exception. You are offering Him a dish by sharing your faith and believing what you are interpeting from scripture is right and telling others who differ in belief as wrong....but you have to at least understand that we all dont have to make the same dishes as you. Hence the reason for faith.

On that note just because you believe does not make it fact. My relatives belief in God does not make it or Him any more real if you said He existed.

Offerings, dishes, are personal. Our conviction in our religions are by faith. As long as you hold a "I know what God is saying in scripture and you dont" there will always be a hinderence in learning from someone who differs.

If you cannot understand at least and/or see the truth in another persons beliefs without defending your own, or telling them they are wrong, how can you have conversations with people who do not share your exact views?

do you want to know who is correct?

It is the writer of the Psalm who is correct. Why? Because he was inspired, or directed by holy spirit, to write what he wrote. The bible presents Gods thoughts on the matter, not our own.

You can liken religious beliefs and opinions to a smorgasbord of food prepared by us and offered to God. We prepared them as offerings to God for worship. But how many of our offerings does he actually like? What a disaster it would be for us if we put so much effort and time into preparing all these dishes, and God comes and examines them and says "no sorry, i dont like your dish...nor do this persons dish.... Im not going near Johnny's dish... her dish over there is repulsive to me... no, im alergic to Peters dish.."

now we have a big problem because all these forms of worship are unacceptable to him. Where does that leave us?

The fact is that God has already told us what dish to prepare, he has told us the ingredients and how he likes it. But unfortunately we continue to bake our own pies.



Its good to have people in our life whom we can trust. But there is also God whom we can trust and his word encourages us to do so:

Psalm 118: 8 It is better to take refuge in Jehovah
Than to trust in humans.

Psalm 40: 4 Happy is the man who trusts in Jehovah...'

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in Jehovah+ with all your heart,
And do not rely* on your own understanding.
In all your ways take notice of him,
And he will make your paths straight

Our life is not supplied to us by people. It is sustained by God himself therefore we are dependent on God for our very existence and our salvation is completely in his hands.... so putting our trust in him is a worthwhile goal.




You've stated that you dont believe a Supreme God exists but your family do.
Logically, two opposing views cannot both be right. Either God exists or he doesnt. Both cannot be correct.

But this is a good example of that smorgasbord of beliefs. We offer the dishes we choose to offer. In the end, God will decide on what he likes and what he doesnt. At least he gives us the option of choosing.