Jesus Resurrection

[Jollybear]

Even a google search doesn't tell me what the heck that is?

...it was in the history channel documentary i gave you. It was part of the finds. The black top mountain and the chariot weels too in the red sea. Actually, just deal with the black top mountain first, not the chariot weels, otherwise youl write me a book. Black top mountain.

I covered this. Maybe there is consciousness after death?
The majority of NDE do not see religious images but those who do always see things revelant to their own beliefs. In India people who have NDEs see similar things to everyone else but on occasion if they see religious images then they see Hindu images.
Same with all cultures, the majority see non-secular images, landscapes, relatives, the medical team working on them.
And on occasion when people see religious images it's always related to their own beliefs.
So while NDEs might suggest some type of survival after death this has nothing to do with Hercules being real. Or Thor or Romulus or Jesus.

It appears you contradict yourself. First you say when folk see religious images its related to there own beliefs, then say it has nothing to do with Jesus.

Ok, what about a christian who has a NDE and sees Jesus, isnt that there religious image, thus being about Jesus?

But, in anycase, the reason i originally bring up NDEs or spiritual experiences period, veridical ones specifically, was to make a point.

You even said in another post they know things they shouldent. This is what im talking about on veridical experiences.

Doesnt this show evidence that rules out halucinations?

That is still all mythology. Bad mythology because in NDE people are not getting punished for sins weather they are religious, atheist, murders or whatever.

Bad mythology? Wait a second, are you saying people should not be punished for wrong doing then?

Even criminals who have had NDE report the same experience which actually shows that whole "judgment and sin" thing is a load of crap.

Actually, be careful how you handle this information because some people do in fact have negative NDE experiences. Most do not, per the data gathering, but, some do. If i remember correctly, its like 20% out of 100%, something like that.

Yes we all want bad murders to be punished but that doesn't seem to be the case according to the majority of NDEs.

Majority, not all. Correct.

Still in the gospels Jesus is very concerned with proof, he does miracles of all types to convince people. And says he will be back "in this generation", "soon", and all other types of similar statements.
We are also supposed to believe a bunch of fishermen dropped their work and followed him around leaving their families to starve.
We all know no god-man is going to show up and start doing miracles. Just man-men doing tricks.

Is it mythology now, or a real figure doing tricks? What one?

Anyway, your half right, Jesus cares, but he dont care to the level your talking about.

Jesus has enough compassion to care about doubters who have a openess, but he emphatically does not care about doubters who are motivated by just fighting him.

Here is a few verses with explanations of Jesus refusing to do miracles.

https://blog.faithlife.com/blog/2014/05/3-miracles-jesus-didnt-do/

So, your wrong, Jesus does not care as much as you say.

And in anycase, your test for me, about writing down a 15 degit number, i told you i cant control my experiences. That dont mean i have not had any.

In fact, one of my veridical experiences was dealing with a number. But it was something i did not control and it happened spontaneously.

I had a friend who was a ex pastor, on my facebook. He was in canada, where im from as well. I live in the USA now. He wanted to come to the USA and do pastoral work here. I didnt think it necessary. But, whatever floats your boat.

Anyway, i had a dream one night. I saw him in the dream and i heard a voice say in the backround "E708" it was one of those very vivid dreams too.

So, woke up the next day and i messaged him on facebook telling him the dream. I had no idea what it meant.

I had no prior knowledge of what he did either.

He told me he went to the immigration place to apply for a passport. He was given a waiting number which was "E708".

Now, i know i did not name off your 15 digit number. But, this veridical anectdotal experience i had, i had no control of it like i said.

But that experience PROVES to me that the mind is independent of brain/space/time.

Of course, for your naturalism, you have 2 options in explaining it away. Either im lying (which i know im not) or it was coincidence (which to me is too specific to be coincidence).

 

[joelr]

... Actually, just deal with the black top mountain first, not the chariot weels, otherwise youl write me a book. Black top mountain.
Are you talking about a mountain where people put up a cross?

"Erecting the cross has been a labor of love for the 9,200 residents of Rabun County. Last spring, 2 1/2 hours after a fund-raising drive was announced for the cross project, the Chamber of Commerce had more than $1,000 in hand. It eventually raised $4,000 from the people in this rural north Georgia county of mountains and waterfalls."

It appears you contradict yourself. First you say when folk see religious images its related to there own beliefs, then say it has nothing to do with Jesus.

Most NDE do not have religious visions. When they do , on occasion they have visions of whatever religion they are involved with.
But mostly NDEs are secular.

Ok, what about a christian who has a NDE and sees Jesus, isnt that there religious image, thus being about Jesus?

Once in a while it happens, Hindus have NDEs and sometimes see Krishna, Buddhists will sometimes see Budduha.
Obviously your mind will create images you are familiar with to comfort you.
Again, they are mostly non-religious anyways.

You even said in another post they know things they shouldent. This is what im talking about on veridical experiences.

Doesnt this show evidence that rules out halucinations?

Sometimes people see medical personel that they shouldn't have otherwise seen.
But once they pass over to another realm then it seems sometimes the things people see are images they are comfortable with, each person may see images from their particular religion and sometimes family members.
But again, almost all NDEs do not result in religious experiences but something completely different. No sin, punishment, judgement, that is definitely a myth.

Anything one sees in the "other dimension" is still up for debate however. We just don't know what's happening.

As to hallucinations in the real world, by people who are not dead or near death, yes, 100%, people have hallucinations all the time, people see visions, ghosts, family, imaginary friends.
There is a type of skitso where hallucinations are common but the person is otherwise normal.

Of course most people who claim to have seen big foot or abducted by aliens or a message from god are simply not telling the truth. Why are we even talking about this, it proves or settles nothing related to this discussion??

Bad mythology? Wait a second, are you saying people should not be punished for wrong doing then?

What did I just say?

People who commit crimes should be punished by law.
I do not think there is an afterlife scenerio where bad people are punished.
In NDEs even everyone is greeted by family and feels the prescense of love.

I think "hell" is something that happens on earth. When you do violence it eventually comes back to you.
Everyone likes to use the Hitler example when talking about people who should be punished. But his life ended in violence. He witnessed his wife and children commit suicide, he lost his country and everything he loved and was killed violently.
It comes back to you. Sometimes maybe just emotionally, hurting your psyche.

But the cold reality of life is sometimes people do bad things and there is no king-in the sky waiting to review you life and pass out punishment.
It's a ridiculous concept about as likely as Santa Clause.
But when you do bad things they do comeback at you in life. So there is some degree of Karma.

I know part of religion is getting to think all the bad people will go to hell but the universe just doesn't work like that. There is no jail-in-the-sky, oh well, that's life. We deal with it by trying to live a god life and not dwelling on the unfair things.

Actually, be careful how you handle this information because some people do in fact have negative NDE experiences. Most do not, per the data gathering, but, some do. If i remember correctly, its like 20% out of 100%, something like that.

I think it's lower than that. But if someone has a NDE and they know they did some really bad things I think the reason they have a bad experience is the same thing with psychadelic drugs.
Your guilty mind is full of conflicting emotions and causes a bad trip or a bad NDE experience.
I think if the NDE stuff is real then consciousness shapes the type of experience it has.

Majority, not all. Correct.

Is it mythology now, or a real figure doing tricks? What one?

I'm just talking about a character in a story.
If I start talking about Neo or Luke Skywalkers deeds and actions and motives, I'm NEVER implying they are real. They will never be real. They are in a story and it is no different with religion. Not at all.

Jesus has enough compassion to care about doubters who have a openess, but he emphatically does not care about doubters who are motivated by just fighting him.

Yeah but Jesus has shown up to NO ONE no matter how open. Some people lie and say he has or get some inspirational feeling and decide to believe it was Jesus.
Still there are billions of people who would gladly follow him and spread his message if he showed up and proved his divinity.
Right now the information points to just another myth. TO convince people you have to do better than being a mythological character/

Here is a few verses with explanations of Jesus refusing to do miracles.

https://blog.faithlife.com/blog/2014/05/3-miracles-jesus-didnt-do/

So, your wrong, Jesus does not care as much as you say.

You can make the bible say whatever idea you want it to support
here are some passages about how he did miracles all over the place and passages that say he did not:
Did Jesus perform many signs and wonders?

it's a load of rubbish

And in anycase, your test for me, about writing down a 15 degit number, i told you i cant control my experiences. That dont mean i have not had any.

In fact, one of my veridical experiences was dealing with a number. But it was

So, woke up the next day and i messaged him on facebook telling him the dream. I had no idea what it meant.

He told me he went to the immigration place to apply for a passport. He was given a waiting number which was "E708".

But that experience PROVES to me that the mind is independent of brain/space/time.

This has nothing to do with religion and there could also be explanations, I don't know all of the circumstances.

Of course, for your naturalism, you have 2 options in explaining it away. Either im lying (which i know im not) or it was coincidence (which to me is too specific to be coincidence).

After he said the # you could have remembered the dream wrong.
He could have been fibbing
It's only 4 spaces, not that big.
You could have overheard it somewhere.
Was it the date, time, birthday?
You might have made some phone call or contact to the immigration or had some past experience and the number for that form is E708?

I never said weird coincidences never happen, in fact if you understand probabilities they HAVE to happen every so often. When they finally do our minds make a big cosmic deal out of them and insist it's proof of ESP.
It isn't. Sit with your friend with 1000 pieces of paper with images, letters and numbers written on them. One item each page
As you stare at each image have him draw what he sees.
Then tally up the hits, near-hits and misses.
Random says you will get a certain amount correct (5%?) so you have to beat that number.

Random coincidences once in a while do not dis-prove naturalism at all.
A one time match of 4 digits is not a veridical experience.
You knew he was coming, you knew he was dealing with immigration, you sound like you have experience with immigration and the forms. You might have had the same form once and remembered it subconsciously!

Now if ESP is real that would be great. But Thor and Jesus are never going to real no matter how much ESP is real.
If I had a dream about a 4 digit number that then showed up the next day I still wouldn't think Zeus must now be real?

 

[Jollybear]

"Erecting the cross has been a labor of love for the 9,200 residents of Rabun County. Last spring, 2 1/2 hours after a fund-raising drive was announced for the cross project, the Chamber of Commerce had more than $1,000 in hand. It eventually raised $4,000 from the people in this rural north Georgia county of mountains and waterfalls."

Wer talking about two different things here. I dont know what that is you posted me.

But, here. The black top mountain. The rocks wer broken open and wer light brown inside, chared black on outside. The bottom of mountain was light brown.

Has the Real Mount Sinai Been Discovered?

Most NDE do not have religious visions. When they do , on occasion they have visions of whatever religion they are involved with.

Your missing my point. You said NDEs are not about Jesus. Then i said what about those ones who see Jesus? Then you say each religious person sees there own leader. Ok, well, then, that NDE would be about THAT religious leader. But, what about the ones who see Jesus? Does that not show he is real?

But mostly NDEs are secular.

Secular huh....hmmm...

So, a person experiences the afterlife, a tunnel, a light, a paradise, loved ones, ect , and those things have NO religious conotations?

Once in a while it happens, Hindus have NDEs and sometimes see Krishna, Buddhists will sometimes see Budduha.
Obviously your mind will create images you are familiar with to comfort you.

How do you know the mind is creating these images and these experiences and there not actually seeing this in another world?

Sometimes people see medical personel that they shouldn't have otherwise seen.

Ok...so, wouldnt that be evidence of ESP?

But again, almost all NDEs do not result in religious experiences but something completely different. No sin, punishment, judgement, that is definitely a myth.

What about the life review that MANY NDEs experience? What do you call that?

Anything one sees in the "other dimension" is still up for debate however. We just don't know what's happening.

Let me just ask you straight out. Do you believe conciousness lives on after death in another realm? Im not asking you what you know, just your views. Or are you just undecided? If undecided, what do you HOPE is the truth?

As to hallucinations in the real world, by people who are not dead or near death, yes, 100%, people have hallucinations all the time, people see visions, ghosts, family, imaginary friends.
There is a type of skitso where hallucinations are common but the person is otherwise normal.

Veridical experiences rule out halucinations. You need another explanation for those kind.

Of course most people who claim to have seen big foot or abducted by aliens or a message from god are simply not telling the truth.

There simply not telling the truth huh? Every single one of them, are not telling the truth? Really? Thats pretty bold statement there. And i disagree 100% with it.

My mom told me she saw a UFO. She wasnt ubducted, but she saw one and i fully believe her. She has no reason to lie to me about it and plus, i know her. And she described it. It was very close up. Triangular. Lights all around the rim and large light in middle. It was as close as a roof top. Very large, huge in fact. It came toward her, she grew afraid and ran. Then it backed away and flew off at lightning speed. She said the sky sucked into itself as it flew.

Why are we even talking about this, it proves or settles nothing related to this discussion??

Actually it does. Its all related.

What did I just say?

People who commit crimes should be punished by law.
I do not think there is an afterlife scenerio where bad people are punished.
In NDEs even everyone is greeted by family and feels the prescense of love.

No, NOT EVERYONE has a positive NDE. Your not entitled to your own set of FACTS.

I think "hell" is something that happens on earth. When you do violence it eventually comes back to you.
Everyone likes to use the Hitler example when talking about people who should be punished. But his life ended in violence. He witnessed his wife and children commit suicide, he lost his country and everything he loved and was killed violently.
It comes back to you. Sometimes maybe just emotionally, hurting your psyche.

But the cold reality of life is sometimes people do bad things and there is no king-in the sky waiting to review you life and pass out punishment.
It's a ridiculous concept about as likely as Santa Clause.

The only difference is that theres evidence of a life review in NDEs and no evidence of santa. Just because you lump him as a comparison to a part of NDE does not discredit the life review part. Deal with things on there own merits and quit comparing apples and oranges.

But when you do bad things they do comeback at you in life. So there is some degree of Karma.

I know part of religion is getting to think all the bad people will go to hell but the universe just doesn't work like that. There is no jail-in-the-sky, oh well, that's life. We deal with it by trying to live a god life and not dwelling on the unfair things.

You DO KNOW that there ARE some negative NDEs, yes? And if karma exists on earth, and a spirit world exists, why would it not exist there too?

I think it's lower than that. But if someone has a NDE and they know they did some really bad things I think the reason they have a bad experience is the same thing with psychadelic drugs.
Your guilty mind is full of conflicting emotions and causes a bad trip or a bad NDE experience.
I think if the NDE stuff is real then consciousness shapes the type of experience it has.

Ok, the guilty mind. So, there ya go, karma in the other world.

I'm just talking about a character in a story.
If I start talking about Neo or Luke Skywalkers deeds and actions and motives, I'm NEVER implying they are real. They will never be real. They are in a story and it is no different with religion. Not at all.

Well, would you say neo was doing tricks or would you say he was a fictional charector? Hmmmm? You see what you did? You presented a genuine contradiction. You say Jesus is a mythical figure. If thats the case, hes not doing TRICKS then. Then you say hes doing tricks, that would make him a real figure and not myth then.

Neo dont do tricks, he really flys in the story, its not a trick.

Yeah but Jesus has shown up to NO ONE no matter how open. Some people lie and say he has or get some inspirational feeling and decide to believe it was Jesus.

There you go again accusing everyone of lying. How do you know everyone who claims Jesus appeared to them is lying?

Again, my mom AND MY NIECE saw Jesus appear to them. They saw it together, at the same time! There not lying to me. Thats not an option on the table. sorry!

Still there are billions of people who would gladly follow him and spread his message if he showed up and proved his divinity.

Do you think before you type? If Jesus appeared to everyone then what would be the point of spreading his message?

Right now the information points to just another myth. TO convince people you have to do better than being a mythological character/

You can make the bible say whatever idea you want it to support
here are some passages about how he did miracles all over the place and passages that say he did not:
Did Jesus perform many signs and wonders?

it's a load of rubbish

Heres what i gather from you. You accuse everyone of lying. You say everyones NDEs are the same. You redicule points without refutation.

Pretty much you have a black and white way of debating and looking at stuff. The world is way more complicated then your black and white glasses you see it through.

Fact is this. Jesus did miracles for SOME in the story. And SOME he refused to do miracles for. That is not rebush. Quit the redicule and make a counter argument.

This has nothing to do with religion and there could also be explanations, I don't know all of the circumstances.

Ask questions then nefore making assumptions like you did below.

After he said the # you could have remembered the dream wrong.

I did not remember the dream wrong. In fact i wrote it down when i awoke. And if i remembered it wrong, what are the odds of getting the # right by remembering the dream wrong? Plus, this wasnt even a gaussing issue. I wasnt even trying to get some number correct. I didnt even know he went to immigration.

He could have been fibbing
It's only 4 spaces, not that big.

Of course, fibbing, everyone lies! Lol. Man, that crap gets so annoying. It tells me your not serious about these issues. No, he was not lying. There was no reason for him to lie. Heres why: i was not trying to gauss a #! I was not even aware of a # . I was not aware he even went to immigration office, let alone was aware of any waiting #.

Do you understand that!?

If the dream was nothing, he would more likely said after i asked him his thoughts on the dream, he would have said 'i dont know what it meams' and that would have been the end of it, right there. Simple.

You could have overheard it somewhere.

Oh my gosh! No! He never told me he was going to immigration, no one else told me he was going there either. Let ALONE telling me his pointless waiting number at that! Even he would not have known the waiting # until after getting it. So how could anyone tell me this? Come on!

Was it the date, time, birthday?
You might have made some phone call or contact to the immigration or had some past experience and the number for that form is E708?

I dont know why the wauting # was E708. To this day i dont know why immigration gave him that number or why the number os framed in that sequence. I have no idea.

And i had no past experience with a E708 # either. Again, its a pointless waiting number. I didnt even know it was a waiting number until he told me.

Is this registering at all?

But, i do know i made NO PHONE CALL AT ALL. Not to anyone, aspeasally to immigration! Like i told you, i did not even know he went there.

I never said weird coincidences never happen, in fact if you understand probabilities they HAVE to happen every so often. When they finally do our minds make a big cosmic deal out of them and insist it's proof of ESP.
It isn't. Sit with your friend with 1000 pieces of paper with images, letters and numbers written on them. One item each page
As you stare at each image have him draw what he sees.
Then tally up the hits, near-hits and misses.
Random says you will get a certain amount correct (5%?) so you have to beat that number.

Do you not understand that this dream was not a gaussing game and yet it was a perfect HIT?

Random coincidences once in a while do not dis-prove naturalism at all.
A one time match of 4 digits is not a veridical experience.

Yes, it is. Because i told him the dream, not knowing what it meant. He in return tells me what he did. Veridical.

 

[Jollybear]

You knew he was coming, you knew he was dealing with immigration, you sound like you have experience with immigration and the forms. You might have had the same form once and remembered it subconsciously!

Man oh man, your not listening! I did NOT know he was comming, or going to immigration to apply for his passport. I did NOT know that AT ALL.

All i knew was that he vaguely thought it interesting to come to the usa and do pastor work. It was not a plan to do it though. I never knew he was serious. I never knew he went to immigration. He never told me that until AFTER i told him the dream.

And ultimately, he did not come to the USA.

Also, it was not a form, it was a waiting #. Thats what he told me.

When i applied for my passport it was through mail, not through going to the office. So, i had no waiting #.

Now if ESP is real that would be great. But Thor and Jesus are never going to real no matter how much ESP is real.
If I had a dream about a 4 digit number that then showed up the next day I still wouldn't think Zeus must now be real?

You can't see the forest for the trees can you?

in the story jesus has ESP. But, if ESP is real, the mind then is independent of space/time and brain. Thats a soul. Thats a biblical doctrine.

Dont miss the forest for the trees.

 

[joelr]

Wer talking about two different things here. I dont know what that is you posted me.

But, here. The black top mountain. The rocks wer broken open and wer light brown inside, chared black on outside. The bottom of mountain was light brown.

Has the Real Mount Sinai Been Discovered?

https://evidencetobelieve.net/has-the-real-mount-sinai-been-discovered/

At the end they say they need archeologists to come in and verify evidence.
This is evidence for nothing.


Y

. But, what about the ones who see Jesus? Does that not show he is real?

Well since Hindu see their gods and Muslims sometimes see their gods and sometimes Buddhists see Buddha and Zoroastrians probably saw Zalmoxus
and so on, no, it means our pre-set ideas about religious figures are probably manifested in the afterlife realm (if it's even a real thing).
We don't yet know what exactly is happening with NDEs. It's not even a topicthat belongs inthis discussion.

Secular huh....hmmm...

So, a person experiences the afterlife, a tunnel, a light, a paradise, loved ones, ect , and those things have NO religious conotations?

No they do not. The feelings they feel have never indicated a jealous angry, requires sacrifices type human made god. They are non-religious spiritual experiences. Secular, that is a known fact about NDEs.

How do you know the mind is creating these images and these experiences and there not actually seeing this in another world?

It's likely that if this stuff is real consciousness is having some effect on the immediate enviornment because as you read about different cultures they often see very cultural images. This implies that your mind will create what you experience in this realm.

Ok...so, wouldnt that be evidence of ESP?

No, ESP is extra sensory perception, something we have while alive and inside our bodies.
Scientific experiments to show this exists have not done well.

What about the life review that MANY NDEs experience? What do you call that?

Your life flashes before your eyes sometimes right before you die. In NDEs no one is standing there with a sin meter with a pointer slowly turning towards "HELL".

Do you believe conciousness lives on after death in another realm? Im not asking you what you know, just your views. Or are you just undecided?

I do not know what NDE's mean. I dont' know how many people are being truthful. I don't know if the brain creates these experiences after it wakes up or if some people experience some type of survival after death.
Everyone hopes there is some continuation after death.

Veridical experiences rule out halucinations. You need another explanation for those kind.

Coincidence. Like I said, test it. Do it again. It is 100% possible to have a dream where 4 digits match up to a real life situation.
That is not that far fetched. To happen one time in a lifetime of things not matching up isn't really that impressive.

There simply not telling the truth huh? Every single one of them, are not telling the truth? Really? Thats pretty bold statement there. And i disagree 100% with it.

Ghost stories, big foot, alien abductions, all lies or delusions. Messages from god, lies or delusions.

My mom told me she saw a UFO. She said the sky sucked into itself as it flew.

Black Triangle ufos. People seem to be seeing them.
But they are not abducting people from their beds?

Actually it does. Its all related.

Your not going to get a proving Christianity with other supernatural topics.

No, NOT EVERYONE has a positive NDE. Your not entitled to your own set of FACTS.

I've heard of a few bad experiences. People seeing their religions version of hell or whatever bad thing happens to you in that religion.
Probably happened because they had a guilty mind?

The only difference is that theres evidence of a life review in NDEs and no evidence of santa. Just because y

NDE's might show some type of survival after death. I've already studied many of them from different authors. They have almost NO connection to any religion whatsoever.
The slim few who do we can't even be sure some old lady just didn't have a heart attach and wake up 3 days later and says "I saw Jesus".

The only "Verdical" information is when a patient sees something that was taking place on earth while they were dead.
Like things a surgical team said after they were dead. Those things can be verified by the medical team who said them.

Anything else that happens in"other realms" we have no proof that that actually happened anyways. It's just more speculation and is pointless in this discussion.

All this phenomena can say is there might be some type of out of body experience.
It doesn't make Romulus or Jesus real or Neo or the X-Men.

 

[joelr]

You DO KNOW that there ARE some negative NDEs, yes? And if karma exists on earth, and a spirit world exists, why would it not exist there too?

Again, it's heresay. What people come back and say means little.

Look up Dr Eben Alexander neurosurgeon who had a NDE.

He wrote an entire book on it. There is some good evidence he made it all up.
That information you can also find online, you don't need me to guide you.

It shows that you can't just believe every tale someone says.
These days people know it's popular to sell books and get interviews if you have a NDE.
So for sure some people are having heart attacks, surviving and making up all sorts of stories.
It's not at all revelant to this discussion.

Ok, the guilty mind. So, there ya go, karma in the other world.

So they say. Could be a lie. Could be something else? Do you just believe anything put in front of you. Do you have any BS filter at all?

I don't care about what some guy who died had to say about his scary experience.
He easily could be looking to get money doing interviews or have some other agenda.
Not worthy of discussing.

Well, would you say neo was doing tricks or would you say he was a fictional charector? Hmmmm? You see what you did? You presented a genuine contradiction. You say Jesus is a mythical figure. If thats the case, hes not doing TRICKS then. Then you say hes doing tricks, that would make him a real figure and not myth then.

Neo dont do tricks, he really flys in the story, its not a trick.

I don't care at all about what you're saying here. Jesus and Neo are fiction, no matter how I say it.

There you go again accusing everyone of lying. How do you know everyone who claims Jesus appeared to them is lying?

No I didnt'. I said some people get a nice feeling and think it's Jesus too.
Read. Read the wrods.

Again, my mom AND MY NIECE saw Jesus appear to them. They saw it together, at the same time! There not lying to me. Thats not an option on the table. sorry!

So?
People see stuff, if they are religious they interpret it as their religious icons sometimes.

This lady saw Krishna:
https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-really-seen-Krishna

I wasn't there and supernatural sightings are not interesting. Please leave your family out of the discussion.

Do you think before you type? If Jesus appeared to everyone then what would be the point of spreading his message?

The point of spreading his message is because he DIDN'T APPEAR TO EVERYONE. Was he a real demi-god he could have appeared to the entire world and everyone would be on board and be believers, which is exactly what he wanted.
He came not to bring peace, but with a sword for non-believers.
Unite the world under one religion, appear to everyone, easy for a god.
That was a huge fail.
That's because it was a myth coming out of the Middle East. If it was just a myth then what you would expect is EXACTLY what did happen.

Heres what i gather from you. You accuse everyone of lying. You say everyones NDEs are the same. You redicule points without refutation.

Most NDEs are very similar. Now you're going to try to bend NDE facts like you bend history facts?

Pretty much you have a black and white way of debating and looking at stuff. The world is way more complicated then your black and white glasses you see it through.

I agree. It's far more complicated. These religious people who actually think they have it all figured out and every other religion is totally wrong is the most black and white idealism I've ever seen.

These people who think there are gods who act like kings and demand ancient blood magic sacrifices to please the sky-king is so black and white that it boggles the mind.
People who think the words in an archaic book are actual words from a god is something I would expect from Romans in 300A.D. but for modern people it's incredibly black and white.

Fact is this. Jesus did miracles for SOME in the story. And SOME he refused to do miracles for. That is not rebush. Quit the redicule and make a counter argument.
Ask questions then nefore making assumptions like you did below.

I'm waiting for your arguments.
Jesus did this, Jesus did that. Yes, but I've shown that THAT is fan-fiction. You haven't shown even the slightest bit of counter information. You haven't shown even the slightest example of proof of a supernatural person or any historical information that even begins to lend credibility on the gospels being history rather than myth. Then we broke down the OT into a bunch of folk tales with a made up god.
I don't need to figure out why Jesus did this or that because it's NOT REAL.
He's a pagan savior messiah.

I did not remember the dream wrong. In fact i wrote it down when i awoke. And if i remembered it wrong, what are the odds of getting the # right by remembering the dream wrong? Plus, this wasnt even a gaussing issue. I wasnt even trying to get some number correct. I didnt even know he went to immigration.

It's a weird coincidence. To demonstrate ESP you have to be able to re-produce your results. Otherwise it's coincidence.

Oh my gosh! No! He never told me he was going to immigration, no one else told me he was going there either. Let ALONE telling me his pointless waiting number at that! Even he would not have known the waiting # until after getting it. So how could anyone tell me this? Come on

Do you not understand that this dream was not a gaussing game and yet it was a perfect HIT?
Yes, it is. Because i told him the dream, not knowing what it meant. He in return tells me what he did. Veridical.

It's not esp unless you can duplicate the feat. I told you how to begin.
ESP is not related to pagan myths being real anyways?

I'm not impressed. Maybe it was some type of esp but maybe not?

Like I said you need to be able to re-produce it. Stop telling me about it, if you just want to bask in the fact that it "must be verdical yay!" then go ahead, write a song about it, write some poetry about it.
I don;t care, I'm not required to care, just take it somewhere else. It's just a distraction to the topic about religion.

 

[joelr]

You can't see the forest for the trees can you?

in the story jesus has ESP. But, if ESP is real, the mind then is independent of space/time and brain. Thats a soul. Thats a biblical doctrine.

Dont miss the forest for the trees.

The idea of the body having a soul goes back so far beyond Judeo-Christian thought it's hilarious that you think the bible came up with it?

It's in Vedic knowledge, Greek philosophy, Sumerian culture and we have burial sites that pre-date MODERN HUMANS. Species before us, H. Hidelburgensis had burial sites and buried items with their dead. It's believed they had a proto-religion and possibly had ideas about a soul.

So this "soul" idea isn't "biblical" it was taken and put into the bible. Same as basically everything else.
Give it up already?

 

[Jollybear]

At the end they say they need archeologists to come in and verify evidence.
This is evidence for nothing.

They said it IS evidence, and said its overwhelming evidence at that.

They did say that credential archeologists should come in.

But thats not saying what they found is not evidence.

Its saying there not aftaid of having conventional archeologists comb through it and analyze further.

The only reason they have not gone in yet is because of the arabian government not allowing it.

Its a political issue.

But also, can people do archeological work without having a degree in it? Of course they can and they did and look what they found.

Why not deal with what was found?

Whether a phd comes in or not makes no difference to the reality of the stuff being there.

At the end of the day, the mountsin is still chared black on the top.

How do you deal with that? Just brush it under the rug and pretend it dont exist, right?

Well since Hindu see their gods and Muslims sometimes see their gods and sometimes Buddhists see Buddha and Zoroastrians probably saw Zalmoxus
and so on, no, it means our pre-set ideas about religious figures are probably manifested in the afterlife realm (if it's even a real thing).
We don't yet know what exactly is happening with NDEs. It's not even a topicthat belongs inthis discussion.

At first i was debating the mirits and evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. Then you wanted to being all kinds of other gods into the subject. Each one has to be judged on its own evidence or lack thereof. You cant compare apples to oranges.

But anyway, i go along with your red herring, being the hopping bunny rabbit that you are, and i start talking about issues. We talk some sources and histories. Then i make a point saying how do you know these things came about by people making them up, vs having actual experiences? That got into NDEs and apparitions. So, yes, it does play a role in the subject. You cant commit a red herring and then blame it on me.

No they do not. The feelings they feel have never indicated a jealous angry, requires sacrifices type human made god. They are non-religious spiritual experiences. Secular, that is a known fact about NDEs.

Your acting like religious beliefs are only about sacrifices. No thats false. Theres more to religious beliefs then sacrifice. Lots of religion believes in a God, heaven, hell, soul, ect. And NDEs have good overtones on those things.

It's likely that if this stuff is real consciousness is having some effect on the immediate enviornment because as you read about different cultures they often see very cultural images. This implies that your mind will create what you experience in this realm.

Thats a factor, yes, but its not the only factors. Theres more to that world then just what your conciousness creates.

No, ESP is extra sensory perception, something we have while alive and inside our bodies.
Scientific experiments to show this exists have not done well.

I read a book awhile back on remote viewing. And the book was written by ine of the people that worked on that government project. This book spike in favor of ESP. But, its conclusion was the same thing i already told you. We cant control it. Some can do better then others, but no one can 100% control it.

Your life flashes before your eyes sometimes right before you die. In NDEs no one is standing there with a sin meter with a pointer slowly turning towards "HELL".

The life review is not the same thing as the expression "my life flashef before my eyes". No, the life review in NDEs is common. And people report seeing and feeling everything they done and how it effected others. They see and feel it through the others eyes and feelings.

Do i need to really bring up a NDE example of this? Please tell me i dont have too.

Coincidence. Like I said, test it. Do it again. It is 100% possible to have a dream where 4 digits match up to a real life situation.
That is not that far fetched. To happen one time in a lifetime of things not matching up isn't really that impressive.

Do it again? Think about what you just told me. Your telling me to do a gaussing game through dreams. Are you serious?

And like i already told you, the dream was not even a gauss. I did not know what the number was refering to at all.

But, you think its chance, coincidence. I dont think it is.

I mean, i have the dream during the same time period he goes to the immigration office. And the number in the dream matches up with his number at immigration. And it was him in the dream too. What are the odds? I think your just stubborn. Thats what i think. Some people are like that, some folks are just stubborn.

Ghost stories, big foot, alien abductions, all lies or delusions. Messages from god, lies or delusions.

Not the veridical ones. And even SOME of the none veridical are not lies or delusions in my view either. SOME are though in my view. But the veridical? Not a chance.

Black Triangle ufos. People seem to be seeing them.
But they are not abducting people from their beds?

Mayby some are, but im telling you the one my mom had.

Your not going to get a proving Christianity with other supernatural topics.

Actually, yes, you can. Like i said, within christianity are apparitions, NDEs and OBEs and belief in a soul, God, heaven, hell. All those things are common experiences in other religions and none religious too.

I've heard of a few bad experiences. People seeing their religions version of hell or whatever bad thing happens to you in that religion.
Probably happened because they had a guilty mind?

Sure, a guilty mind, that works.

NDE's might show some type of survival after death. I've already studied many of them from different authors. They have almost NO connection to any religion whatsoever.
The slim few who do we can't even be sure some old lady just didn't have a heart attach and wake up 3 days later and says "I saw Jesus".

When you say "connection to religion" i dont like this because its not about any particular religion. I think your confused about that, seriously. Its about reality and any and all religions can have pieces of that.

And ive read many NDEs where people said they saw Jesus. And not just from authors, from the experiencers themselves. Theres a database on the net where theres thousands of interviews. Ive read 600 NDEs from that site. And that site i got it from is here NDERF Home Page

Also i read the doctor who did this work, i read his book too.

The only "Verdical" information is when a patient sees something that was taking place on earth while they were dead.
Like things a surgical team said after they were dead. Those things can be verified by the medical team who said them.

Things said are veridicals yes, but theres more things veridical then just that. Its a case by case. People see things too. And mot just in the room. All case by case. Do we need to pull up examples?

Anything else that happens in"other realms" we have no proof that that actually happened anyways. It's just more speculation and is pointless in this discussion.

No its not. You wanna talk about other gods, well, wer gonna go deep mr red herring.

All this phenomena can say is there might be some type of out of body experience.
It doesn't make Romulus or Jesus real or Neo or the X-Men.

People dont see neo, people do see Jesus though. So, yes, it can mean Jesus is real.

 

[Jollybear]

The idea of the body having a soul goes back so far beyond Judeo-Christian thought it's hilarious that you think the bible came up with it?

First off, i said its a biblical doctrine, thats not the same as saying the bible came up with it.

But, now that you ask, yes, i believe the bible has its own independent experiences.

Whos older? You assume some other culture is older, again, how do you know that? How do you not know other cultures did not copy the bible?

It's in Vedic knowledge, Greek philosophy, Sumerian culture and we have burial sites that pre-date MODERN HUMANS. Species before us, H. Hidelburgensis had burial sites and buried items with their dead. It's believed they had a proto-religion and possibly had ideas about a soul.

Ok, so this idea of a soul was around as long as humans. Whats that tell you? It should tell you they got there stories based on experiences, not based on making crap up.

So this "soul" idea isn't "biblical" it was taken and put into the bible. Same as basically everything else.
Give it up already?

Wrong.

 

[Jollybear]

Again, it's heresay. What people come back and say means little.

To you mayby, not to me.

Look up Dr Eben Alexander neurosurgeon who had a NDE.

He wrote an entire book on it. There is some good evidence he made it all up.
That information you can also find online, you don't need me to guide you.

I read his book too.

Evidence he made it up huh? Oh im sure theres critic's wanting to call him a lier.

It shows that you can't just believe every tale someone says.
These days people know it's popular to sell books and get interviews if you have a NDE.

Like the books you bought and read about NDEs too right? Cretics write books on NDEs, they make money off it too. So your point on that is kinda moot wouldent ya say?

So for sure some people are having heart attacks, surviving and making up all sorts of stories.
It's not at all revelant to this discussion.

Oh im sure some people lie to get attention, but that dont disqualify all the experiences.

So they say. Could be a lie. Could be something else? Do you just believe anything put in front of you. Do you have any BS filter at all?

Yes, i do have a BS filter. My BS filter tells me that nothing will convince you. I think your issue goes deeper then just wanting evidence.

I don't care about what some guy who died had to say about his scary experience.
He easily could be looking to get money doing interviews or have some other agenda.
Not worthy of discussing.

And the authors you read cpuld be looking to make money too. Not worthy of discussing, right?

I don't care at all about what you're saying here. Jesus and Neo are fiction, no matter how I say it.

Your contradiction is loged in my mind.

No I didnt'. I said some people get a nice feeling and think it's Jesus too.
Read. Read the wrods.

You said those who claim to have seen him appear are all lying.

Thats false. Some people are not just claiming a "nice feeling" but an apparition of Jesus. My mom and niece had it happen. At same time at that!

So?
People see stuff, if they are religious they interpret it as their religious icons sometimes.

So!? So deal with it!

This lady saw Krishna:
https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-really-seen-Krishna

Ok, deal with it then!

I wasn't there and supernatural sightings are not interesting. Please leave your family out of the discussion.

If there not interesting then why are we having this debate?

Also if you want me to leave my moms sighting of a UFO out of the discussion, then why dont you leave your comment that everyone who claims to see a UFO is a lier, out of the discussion! You make a red herring comment on UFOs, expect a response!

 

[Jollybear]

The point of spreading his message is because he DIDN'T APPEAR TO EVERYONE.

Correct.

Was he a real demi-god he could have appeared to the entire world and everyone would be on board and be believers, which is exactly what he wanted.
He came not to bring peace, but with a sword for non-believers.
Unite the world under one religion, appear to everyone, easy for a god.

Why didnt he appear to all? A few reasons. One because of peoples lack of care.

Two because he dont go by others agenda of a circus show.

And three its about the journey, the process. Not just the arrival at truth.

That was a huge fail.
That's because it was a myth coming out of the Middle East. If it was just a myth then what you would expect is EXACTLY what did happen.

And thats your religion right there, naturalism.

Most NDEs are very similar. Now you're going to try to bend NDE facts like you bend history facts?

No, you bent NDE facts. I did not bend them, you did that.

Its weird. You blame me for your own red herrings. Blame me for facts you bend. Blame me for assumptions when in fact you make your own assumptions.

I agree. It's far more complicated. These religious people who actually think they have it all figured out and every other religion is totally wrong is the most black and white idealism I've ever seen.

I dont say every other religion has it wrong. I say every religion has some wrong and some things right. I say this even about your religion of naturalism. Its got some wrong and some things right.

You have a black and white glasses, just with a different worldview.

These people who think there are gods who act like kings and demand ancient blood magic sacrifices to please the sky-king is so black and white that it boggles the mind.
People who think the words in an archaic book are actual words from a god is something I would expect from Romans in 300A.D. but for modern people it's incredibly black and white.

You dont see withon your own self a black and white way of looking at things? Your that blind to your own glasses?

I'm waiting for your arguments.
Jesus did this, Jesus did that. Yes, but I've shown that THAT is fan-fiction. You haven't shown even the slightest bit of counter information. You haven't shown even the slightest example of proof of a supernatural person or any historical information that even begins to lend credibility on the gospels being history rather than myth. Then we broke down the OT into a bunch of folk tales with a made up god.
I don't need to figure out why Jesus did this or that because it's NOT REAL.
He's a pagan savior messiah.

And this statement is simply false preaching.

It's a weird coincidence. To demonstrate ESP you have to be able to re-produce your results. Otherwise it's coincidence.

Disagree. Its uncontrolled realities.

It's not esp unless you can duplicate the feat. I told you how to begin.
ESP is not related to pagan myths being real anyways?

Jesus had ESP.

I'm not impressed. Maybe it was some type of esp but maybe not?

Like I said you need to be able to re-produce it. Stop telling me about it, if you just want to bask in the fact that it "must be verdical yay!" then go ahead, write a song about it, write some poetry about it.
I don;t care, I'm not required to care, just take it somewhere else. It's just a distraction to the topic about religion.

Mock all you want. DEAL WITH IT. Eat it and weep.

 

[joelr]

They said it IS evidence, and said its overwhelming evidence at that.



At the end of the day, the mountsin is still chared black on the top.

How do you deal with that? Just brush it under the rug and pretend it dont exist, right?

Why would I "brush under the rug" a charred mountain? You talk as if I want to suppress evidence? The OT is a myth so a black mountain top (I can't even believe we are discussing this) is just a black mountain top. I don't know what it is? Maybe a fire? Maybe a meteor once crashed? Guess what- EVERY strange thing EVER on earth eventually ends up having some earthly explanation.
If you're at the point where your evidence is black mountains then there is no discussion. You've nothing left.
Moses is mythology in scholarship so that's over. Maybe Zues charred the mountain? Maybe it's proof that Zues was a real god?

At first i was debating the mirits and evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. Then you wanted to being all kinds of other gods into the subject. Each one has to be judged on its own evidence or lack thereof. You cant compare apples to oranges.

You should go back to the NT because the OT is a myth according to the field. The historicity field vs some random internet gut means the Ph.D community wins. This isn't even a debate, I'm just humoring you. At least with Jesus studies there are things to debate besides ancient ghost stories that are now considered myth by archeology and historicity.

But anyway, i go along with your red herring, being the hopping bunny rabbit that you are, and i start talking about issues. We talk some sources and histories. Then i make a point saying how do you know these things came about by people making them up, vs having actual experiences? That got into NDEs and apparitions. So, yes, it does play a role in the subject. You cant commit a red herring and then blame it on me.

No, you brought up "verdical experiences". YOU steered into this direction because you were getting smashed on the Jesus mythology.

Your acting like religious beliefs are only about sacrifices. No thats false. Theres more to religious beliefs then sacrifice. Lots of religion believes in a God, heaven, hell, soul, ect. And NDEs have good overtones on those things.

They don't . The majority are secular. The vast majority. No Jesus, no hell, no god judging sins.

Thats a factor, yes, but its not the only factors. Theres more to that world then just what your conciousness creates.

It's 100% clear that in NDE the persons beliefs can influence the surroundings. We know this because when you look at NDEs from different culturel they often reflect their religions.
While most are secular a few Christiams might see Jesus, a few Hindu might see their personal god a few Buddhist might see Buddha. So obviously peoples minds influence the experience.

I read a book awhile back on remote viewing. And the book was written by ine of the people that worked on that government project. This book spike in favor of ESP. But, its conclusion was the same thing i already told you. We cant control it. Some can do better then others, but no one can 100% control it.

Yeah I read a book on Roswell and it said aliens crashed and we recovered a ufo. Guess what, that didn't happen.
The military studied remote viewing, it was a failure. If the military had any success, even the smallest amount of possible use then they would be paying remote viewers to study, train and develop their ability.
Instead, the military budget which consists of trillions of ollars pays out ZERO to people to do remote viewing.

If they were even a little bit successful but couldn't "control it" then they would pay remote viewers to just practice and sharpen their ability. They would have people who live onsite and don't have to do any other work and just try to develop their esp powers. That is what would have happened. They would not say "oh it's real but we can't control it". If that was the case they would pay remote viewers to live, eat and sleep training so they could develop the power.

But guess what? They stopped testing. Because it's NOT REAL.
People lack simple common sense?

The life review is not the same thing as the expression "my life flashef before my eyes". No, the life review in NDEs is common. And people report seeing and feeling everything they done and how it effected others. They see and feel it through the others eyes and feelings.

Do i need to really bring up a NDE example of this? Please tell me i dont have too.

This has nothing to do with the ridiculous idea of sinners and non-believers going to hell. The "god" they experience has nothing to do with "non-believers going to hell" like Jesus talks about in Matthew. It's so secular and non-Christian that it's basically proof that all religions are not literally real.

Do it again? Think about what you just told me. Your telling me to do a gaussing game through dreams. Are you serious?
And like i already told you, the dream was not even a gauss. I did not know what the number was refering to at all.
But, you think its chance, coincidence. I dont think it is.

Who cares? ESP is a completely separate topic from religion.
It's also heresay and doesn't have any meaning in a debate.

I mean, i have the dream during the same time period he goes to the immigration office. And the number in the dream matches up with his number at immigration. And it was him in the dream too. What are the odds? I think your just stubborn. Thats what i think. Some people are like that, some folks are just stubborn.

Again, I don't know the exact circumstances and I don't care. I would have to know all the communication you had with him prior to the event, all of your history with immigration, did he show you the ticket with the #, did he tell you the number and then you remembered your dream (did you remember it wrong?), all of any knowledge of his travels prior to the dream and at the end of the day I still can't verify anything you say or anything he says.
After all that, even if random esp is real, Zues and all other religious icons are still myth.

But the fact that it's random also suggests coincidence.

Not the veridical ones. And even SOME of the none veridical are not lies or delusions in my view either. SOME are though in my view. But the veridical? Not a chance.

Stop saying veridical.

Mayby some are, but im telling you the one my mom had.

Ok your mom saw a ufo. Super.

Actually, yes, you can. Like i said, within christianity are apparitions, NDEs and OBEs and belief in a soul, God, heaven, hell. All those things are common experiences in other religions and none religious too.

Yes that is why humans create myths, to tell stories about things we dont' actually know about. So people can think they have all the answers. Then the Christians sit around and feel superior to other religions cuz they have all the answers and all the other religions do the same. My myth is true, no my myth....blah blah....

When you say "connection to religion" i dont like this because its not about any particular religion. I think your confused about that, seriously. Its about reality and any and all religions can have pieces of that.

And ive read many NDEs where people said they saw Jesus. And not just from authors, from the experiencers themselves. Theres a database on the net where theres thousands of interviews. Ive read 600 NDEs from that site. And that site i got it from is here NDERF Home Page

Also i read the doctor who did this work, i read his book too.

Eben Alexander, may have been lying.

NDEs are secular. Some people obviously their personal deity, sometimes Jesus sometimes other:-

Yes I could feel (is it a right word, don't know) that my Goddess Kalika is there on the other side of that beam of bright light that was coming from outside the hall. I was happy to know that she is there outside.

There are also 100s of Hindu and others who had NDE and it helped CONFIRM their religion. It's obvious your searching on that site was very bias towards one thing. Please stop making silly arguments?

Things said are veridicals yes, but theres more things veridical then just that. Its a case by case. People see things too. And mot just in the room. All case by case. Do we need to pull up examples?

No because it's stupid. For every Jesus there is a Sufi Goddess, alien abduction and whatever else people see. It doesnt' help your case for religion. It does prove people see whatever silly religious icons they think are real in their minds.

No its not. You wanna talk about other gods, well, wer gonna go deep mr red herring.

You mean you actually have arguments that are even LESS founded in logic and reality and are on even shakier ground then all this crap you're pulling out now?
Are you going to bring up Lepricauns now? Or is Elvis still alive?

People dont see neo, people do see Jesus though. So, yes, it can mean Jesus is real.

So things people see are real. Do I really need to explain why that is wrong?
How do you know no one has had a vision of Neo?

"in another ocassion clearly i saw jesus, buddha and mohamed too."

wow, look at that they are all real!

 

[joelr]

Whos older? You assume some other culture is older, again, how do you know that? How do you not know other cultures did not copy the bible?

History recognizes 6 savior demigods that pre-date Christianity.
We also have ancient historians and Christian apologists who talk about that.
Which have been already discussed.
The OT is dated to a specific time period which I know you know.
It does not pre-date ancient Egypt or the Babylonians and you can figure this out by yourself.
If you have some reason to challenge history then present it, otherwise please don't argue things that are already historical. It's just a waste of time and you'll just ignore the answer and move on to some other topic.

Ok, so this idea of a soul was around as long as humans. Whats that tell you? It should tell you they got there stories based on experiences, not based on making crap up.

Wrong.

If all you can say is "wrong" I'm assuming you can't challenge the idea with words and are just giving up.


As to the soul there have been a lot of ideas around since early humans that have turned out to be wrong.
In fact before the modern scientific age basically everything we thought up was wrong. Even early science and philosophy was mostly wrong.

But this debate is not about souls or a general afterlife. Even if there is an afterlife the idea that "my religion is the right one and the 4000 others are all wrong" is one of humanities biggest mistakes.
You can't even deny that because even to a Christian ALL other religious people (the other 66%) are wrong. That's more than half of all religious people alive.
So if you now want to make an argument to authority, which you just did, then look - most people are wrong, and so are you.

 

[joelr]

To you mayby, not to me.

Then you must also believe it's true when people see all other religious figures, including Buddah, Mohummed and so on...but you don't so you're a liar.

I read his book too.

Evidence he made it up huh? Oh im sure theres critic's wanting to call him a lier.

Do your own research, if you want to be gulliable then go for it. There are no "critics" there is just evidence that he didn't have the illness he claimed.
I'm not wasting time looking it up because you're grasping at so many straws and when I prove them wrong you just jump to the next thing.

Like the books you bought and read about NDEs too right? Cretics write books on NDEs, they make money off it too. So your point on that is kinda moot wouldent ya say?

No. What critic, what book? I'm sure some people lie about having an NDE and some are truthful. I just don't know how to tell?


Y

es, i do have a BS filter. My BS filter tells me that nothing will convince you. I think your issue goes deeper then just wanting evidence.

That's funny, I have "issues" because I don't believe every superstitious tale that makes me all tingly inside.
It's an issue sometimes called "not being a moron".

And the authors you read cpuld be looking to make money too. Not worthy of discussing, right?

What authors? God, I have to explain everything to you?
There is SOME reason to doubt Eben Alexander. His story has some flaws and his character could be questionable. He was caught lying about medical records, was having financial trouble and a doctor who knew of his case said his illness was not what he claimed.

I dont' care which way to lean on this but it is what it is.

The 'Proof of Heaven' Author Has Now Been Thoroughly Debunked by Science - The Atlantic

Dr Eben Alexander was a family friend. Then I investigated him.

Eben Alexander’s bogus trip to heaven

Doctor who penned best-seller ‘Proof of Heaven’ under fire for false claims

Your contradiction is loged in my mind.

Actually Jesus IS Neo. They are both savior messiahs who rise from the dead to save their people.

You said those who claim to have seen him appear are all lying.

Thats false. Some people are not just claiming a "nice feeling" but an apparition of Jesus. My mom and niece had it happen. At same time at that!

Nope. Didn't say that. When people have hallucinations they often see the deity they worship. Everything we see is technically a hallucination. Our brain takes photons and decodes the frequency and wavelength and draws a picture of what reality should look like. It can add or subtract information at ease.
The middle of the eye is actually a blind spot where our brain draws in what it thinks should go there.
People have been seeing religious figures of all types since forever. Unless you believe every single religious figure is actually real, including fairies and all types of monsters, ghosts, dead family members, and Elvis then you know damn well that people see stuff that really isn't there ALL THE TIME.


So when it happens to be your personal god it's real? Lame.

So!? So deal with it!

Ok, deal with it then!

I don't even know what that means? Deal with what? I don't believe visions of gods are real, that's your thing?
Again, if all you got is "deal with it" then that's you saying you've nothing left to say.

I

f there not interesting then why are we having this debate?

Also if you want me to leave my moms sighting of a UFO out of the discussion, then why dont you leave your comment that everyone who claims to see a UFO is a lier, out of the discussion! You make a red herring comment on UFOs, expect a response!

See, this is a great example of a hallucination based on what you want to see.
I never said everyone who sees a ufo is a liar. Never. I said some people tell lies about seeing things.
You're responding to your own hallucination.
I have already been saying I don't I don't care about debating "things" people claim to see or weird experiences they have. It proves nothing?

While ufo experiences are interesting, especially these black triangles, it's hard to tell which people are telling the truth or if they are just having a little fun. Unless I know the person personally

 

[joelr]

Man oh man, your not listening! I did NOT know he was comming, or going to immigration to apply for his passport. I did NOT know that AT ALL.

All i knew was that he vaguely thought it interesting to come to the usa and do pastor work. It was not a plan to do it though. I never knew he was serious. I never knew he went to immigration. He never told me that until AFTER i told him the dream.

And ultimately, he did not come to the USA.

Also, it was not a form, it was a waiting #. Thats what he told me.

When i applied for my passport it was through mail, not through going to the office. So, i had no waiting #.

"Thats what he told me." - HA. Someone was telling a little fib.

You can't see the forest for the trees can you?

in the story jesus has ESP. But, if ESP is real, the mind then is independent of space/time and brain. Thats a soul. Thats a biblical doctrine.

Dont miss the forest for the trees.

Every god has super powers. Every god ever invented knows the future.
IF ESP is real does it mean every myth about a god is real?
No, it doesn't. Characters in Marvel comics have ESP.
"Biblical doctrine" is a pretentious word for super powers that every god-man has.
Jesus is a pagan copy so if ESP is real is every other pagan savior god real.

No. This is why the original debate is relevant because all this stuff makes the assumption that your god-man is real. But it's a complete myth.
So proving ESP isn't even related to your bible or any other scripture or bible.

Your grasping at vague concepts trying to make them mean something they have nothing to do with. What good does it do when we look at history and see it's all really just man-made myths?

Not only that but god doesn't even have ESP?
You want to talk about "biblical doctrine" how about 229 failed prophecies that god said would happen and didn't?

Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes
So if human ESP is real we can ignore all those failures and say the bible is real?? The logic is a complete fail?

The bible thought pi was 3? God couldn't even tell his people what pi was? Or any science beyond what man had already figured out? Not even some math? We got our numbers from India in the Middle Ages.

 

[Jollybear]

Why would I "brush under the rug" a charred mountain? You talk as if I want to suppress evidence?

Once the posts get too long, im gonna cut it back down to size and reset. Time purposes again.

Thats my question exactly. Why would you brush it off? But YOU DID.

The OT is a myth so a black mountain top (I can't even believe we are discussing this) is just a black mountain top.

If this site has loads of evidence for the exodus, which it does. Then no, the OT is not myth. Your view is a myth. And stop acting like all archeologists, historians and schalars dont believe the bible is true. Some do, some dont.

I don't know what it is? Maybe a fire?

Ok, wer getting somewhere now. What caused this fire? Whats your theory? Keep in mind, this would have been a HUGE fire. It ingulfed the whole mountain top, skirting down, all around, making a barier line. You saw the picture in the article, you know. What could have caused that?

Maybe a meteor once crashed?

Come on mr naturalist. You should know better then that. Dont you know what a meteor crash looks like when it hits earth? It leaves a hole.

If it hit the top of the mountain, the mountain would not have its pointy tip no more. And plus, the chared rock would not be uniform as it is on this mountain, it would be scattered charing.

Care to try again?

Guess what- EVERY strange thing EVER on earth eventually ends up having some earthly explanation.

Oh of course it does! Because thats your religion! You must see everything through those lenses.

If you're at the point where your evidence is black mountains then there is no discussion. You've nothing left.

If your at the point where your brushing the evidence away, then theres no discussion. Youve nothing left.

You wanna manipulate the discussion. Sorry, i wont let you do that.

Moses is mythology in scholarship so that's over.

Ah....no, thats not firmly astablished, not all scholars agree, some do, some dont. So, deal with the black mountain, its NOT OVER.

Maybe Zues charred the mountain? Maybe it's proof that Zues was a real god?

Your the one that likes to use the word "probability" right? Well, whats more probable if any God chared the mountain? Is it more probable that zues would have done it or more probable that Yahweh did it?

Since the story in exodus SAYS yahwah came on the mountain in a piller of fire, then its more probable that if any God did this, that HE would have, since hes directly mentioned as done so, while zues has not been.

It be a good idea if you left your mocking out of the discussion too by the way. It make things more fruitfull.

 

[Tammie]

Jollybear and/or Prometheus85

Since both of you seem to differ about three days and it's meaning on Christ/Yeshua's resurrection - how long is this three days or your oppinions?
https://www.religiousforums.com/members/prometheus85.63546/

Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Jollybear]

Jollybear and/or Prometheus85

Since both of you seem to differ about three days and it's meaning on Christ/Yeshua's resurrection - how long is this three days or your oppinions?


Matthew 12:40 - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

If i understand your question correctly, your asking how long was the three days?

I think the 3 days was a 3 literal 24 hour three day period.

 

[Tammie]

If i understand your question correctly, your asking how long was the three days?

I think the 3 days was a 3 literal 24 hour three day period.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Tammie]

Jollybear - what are your thoughts on our resurrection?