Jesus: Not a God

[The Hammer]

I thought I would address this part more specifically:

Since you said "only in the Gospel of John" - I thought I would look at the book of Matthew:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Here Matthew recognizes him as God.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Apparently, someone in Heaven thought so.

Matthew 4:3 Then the tempter approached Him and said, “If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

The tempter recognized him

Matthew 8:29 Suddenly [the demons] shouted, “What do You have to do with us, Son of God?”

Demons recognized him

Matthew 14: 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Jesus certainly didn't have a problem with people calling him the Son of God.

Matthew 16:15-17 “But you,” He asked them, “who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!” And Jesus responded, “Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.”

Jesus acknowledged Peter's statement as not only true but revealed by the Father

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

A Roman understood.



So, it is pretty much everywhere and confirmed by a multiplicity of venues.

I'd like to see this in the original Greek with translation notes

 

[The Hammer]

People were falling down at His feet to adore Him. The wise men worshipped Him as an infant. When people did that to angels, the angel would correct them, tell them they are but a messenger and also typically tell them to worship God alone. Jesus never corrected those people who were adoring Him, just like He never corrected the people who referred to Him as Lord, Son of God and God.
Was Jesus worshipped during His earthly ministry?

Just like any other famous person. No one turns down adoring fans.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just like any other famous person. No one turns down adoring fans.

Wrong. In that era and culture, you would turn down worship lest you be accused of blasphemy and idolatry. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus multiple times over His claim to be God.

 

[Kenny]

I'd like to see this in the original Greek with translation notes

Any one in particular?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand that you are a sincere person. You have all the right to your faith. You did not answer my question SF.

They were worshipping Him as in adoration, and praising Him as Lord, God and the Son of God. Any time an angel was treated in such a way, they would admonish the worshipper, but Jesus never did. I don't know how else you want me to answer it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I thought I would address this part more specifically:

Since you said "only in the Gospel of John" - I thought I would look at the book of Matthew:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Here Matthew recognizes him as God.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Apparently, someone in Heaven thought so.

Matthew 4:3 Then the tempter approached Him and said, “If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

The tempter recognized him

Matthew 8:29 Suddenly [the demons] shouted, “What do You have to do with us, Son of God?”

Demons recognized him

Matthew 14: 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Jesus certainly didn't have a problem with people calling him the Son of God.

Matthew 16:15-17 “But you,” He asked them, “who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!” And Jesus responded, “Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.”

Jesus acknowledged Peter's statement as not only true but revealed by the Father

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

A Roman understood.



So, it is pretty much everywhere and confirmed by a multiplicity of venues.

"Son of Man" is another divine title of Christ:
"13 “I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed."
- Daniel 7:13-14

" And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;"
Sure sounds like God to me.

 

[The Hammer]

Any one in particular?

The older the better

 

[firedragon]

They were worshipping Him as in adoration, and praising Him as Lord, God and the Son of God. Any time an angel was treated in such a way, they would admonish the worshipper, but Jesus never did. I don't know how else you want me to answer it.

See SF, if a book says that someone worshiped another, that does not mean that person is God. You should consider every single other religion in that case. I know of a guy called Ramana in India. I didnt know him personally of course, but he was worshiped. Does that mean he is God himself?

Also, I told you very clearly. The word Proskuneesees does not mean worship as you understand in English. Dig deeper.

God is not determined by who worships whom. It is determined by what God himself says.

And if your case is that Jesus was called son of God, Ephraim was his elder brother then. Because he is called Son of God. In fact, he is the eldest born son of God. He is called Prototokos.

And if you are looking for the word Proskuneesees, then in Matthew the author writes quoting Jesus himself where he says "
Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only". So basically you are absolutely ignoring what Jesus himself said, and banking on what you think people did, not Jesus. Dont get angry but from your paradigm of believing the Bible has the word of God, you are ignoring your own scripture.

 

[firedragon]

"Son of Man" is another divine title of Christ:

Its also the title of Ezekiel.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

See SF, if a book says that someone worshiped another, that does not mean that person is God. You should consider every single other religion in that case. I know of a guy called Ramana in India. I didnt know him personally of course, but he was worshiped. Does that mean he is God himself?

Also, I told you very clearly. The word Proskuneesees does not mean worship as you understand in English. Dig deeper.

God is not determined by who worships whom. It is determined by what God himself says.

And if your case is that Jesus was called son of God, Ephraim was his elder brother then. Because he is called Son of God. In fact, he is the eldest born son of God. He is called Prototokos.

And if you are looking for the word Proskuneesees, then in Matthew the author writes quoting Jesus himself where he says "
Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only". So basically you are absolutely ignoring what Jesus himself said, and banking on what you think people did, not Jesus. Dont get angry but from your paradigm of believing the Bible has the word of God, you are ignoring your own scripture.

Excuse me? I think it's cute how you're trying to tell me what my own religion teaches. Face it, you're a Muslim and will never agree with the Trinity or what Christianity teaches about God (which is the Trinity). So why even bother with this? We'll never see it the same. You're basically saying the early Christians didn't know how to read their own language that they wrote the NT in. What a ridiculous argument to use.

I'll stick with Thomas' exclamation: "My Lord and my God!".

 

[firedragon]

Excuse me? I think it's cute how you're trying to tell me what my own religion teaches. Face it, you're a Muslim and will never agree with the Trinity or what Christianity teaches about God (which is the Trinity). So why even bother with this? We'll never see it the same. You're basically saying the early Christians didn't know how to read their own language that they wrote the NT in. What a ridiculous argument to use.

I'll stick with Thomas' exclamation: "My Lord and my God!".

You did not answer my queries. You opted to ad hominem.

Thats obviously because these questions cannot be answered without violating your creed.

No problem., I will leave that to you. Its alright. Cheers.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You did not answer my queries. You opted to ad hominem.

Thats obviously because these questions cannot be answered without violating your creed.

No problem., I will leave that to you. Its alright. Cheers.

You think what you want. I'll stick with my Lord and my God. I answered what question you had (the last post to me was not questions, but a condescending lecture, which was really funny). Not my fault you didn't like the answer. Take it up with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[firedragon]

You think what you want. I'll stick with my Lord and my God. I answered what question you had (the last post to me was not questions, but a condescending lecture, which was really funny). Not my fault you didn't like the answer. Take it up with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You didnt answer SF. Go back to that post, and see if you understand it, and provide a proper response. But if you are getting angry, you dont have to answer. I understand its your faith.

BUT. Dont think you answered, when you have not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You didnt answer SF. Go back to that post, and see if you understand it, and provide a proper response. But if you are getting angry, you dont have to answer. I understand its your faith.

BUT. Dont think you answered, when you have not.

I did. You just don't like the answer.

Why do you keep bringing up "my faith"? Do you think stuff said in this thread is some sort of threat to it? We've had about a thousand of these threads. It's the same arguments over and over. No one is changing their minds on here.

 

[firedragon]

I did. You just don't like the answer.

Why do you keep bringing up "my faith"? Do you think stuff said in this thread is some sort of threat to it? We've had about a thousand of these threads. It's the same arguments over and over. No one is changing their minds on here.

You never answered. You just did an ad hominem. Let me cut and paste the post so that you could answer if you can.

1. See SF, if a book says that someone worshiped another, that does not mean that person is God. You should consider every single other religion in that case. I know of a guy called Ramana in India. I didnt know him personally of course, but he was worshiped. Does that mean he is God himself?

2. Also, I told you very clearly. The word Proskuneesees does not mean worship as you understand in English. Dig deeper.

3. God is not determined by who worships whom. It is determined by what God himself says.

4. And if your case is that Jesus was called son of God, Ephraim was his elder brother then. Because he is called Son of God. In fact, he is the eldest born son of God. He is called Prototokos.

5. And if you are looking for the word Proskuneesees, then in Matthew the author writes quoting Jesus himself where he says "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only".

So basically you are absolutely ignoring what Jesus himself said, and banking on what you think people did, not Jesus. Dont get angry but from your paradigm of believing the Bible has the word of God, you are ignoring your own scripture.

 

[Kenny]

The older the better

LOL - No... I mean, which of all the scriptures that I listed

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You never answered. You just did an ad hominem. Let me cut and paste the post so that you could answer if you can.

1. See SF, if a book says that someone worshiped another, that does not mean that person is God. You should consider every single other religion in that case. I know of a guy called Ramana in India. I didnt know him personally of course, but he was worshiped. Does that mean he is God himself?

2. Also, I told you very clearly. The word Proskuneesees does not mean worship as you understand in English. Dig deeper.

3. God is not determined by who worships whom. It is determined by what God himself says.

4. And if your case is that Jesus was called son of God, Ephraim was his elder brother then. Because he is called Son of God. In fact, he is the eldest born son of God. He is called Prototokos.

5. And if you are looking for the word Proskuneesees, then in Matthew the author writes quoting Jesus himself where he says "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only".

So basically you are absolutely ignoring what Jesus himself said, and banking on what you think people did, not Jesus. Dont get angry but from your paradigm of believing the Bible has the word of God, you are ignoring your own scripture.

Those aren't questions, those are just patronizing remarks. I answered your original question about worship. But go ahead and tell me what the Bible really means, I guess. You know better than the people who wrote it, the Church Fathers, all the Saints, centuries of theologians, almost all Christians...

As an aside, technically, Jesus is the true Word of God, not the Bible. The Bible is a record of sacred history and a product of the Church.

 

[The Hammer]

LOL - No... I mean, which of all the scriptures that I listed

No I meant a book I could go buy with translation notes added, that goes between Greek and English and gives reasons for the translator's choices.

 

[firedragon]

Those aren't questions, those are just patronizing remarks.

You have mp answer. So this is the resort. Alright. It seems to be your resort.

1. Tell me. Who wrote the Gospel of Mark? Do you have any clue? With what evidence?
2. Ephraim is called Prototokos. The eldest born of God. Does that mean Ephraim is God? Or is he Jesus's elder brother and another son of God?
3. In Genesis, chapter forty three, there is obeisance twice. Does that make them God??

I presume these sound like questions.

 

[Colt]

If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?.

Jesus never once declared that he was God or the Son of God.

"You do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, or the last Gospel. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier gospels and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things."

Jesus proved his divinity in several ways.