Jesus is not god

[Sabour]

I am seeing a common trend which makes prophets into gods. They say obeying their leaders is the same as obeying God. Now you say "after all you are not trusting a prophet, you are trusting God".

If I had a ticket out I'd leave. It is crazy calling human opinion GOD.

If it occurred many times over and over you still dont have time to generalize. Second, prophets would only hold accountable if that is why they actually preached.

The fact that people distort things is not a reason for one to leave the true teachings revealed to us through the prophets.

 

[savagewind]

You say "people distort things". Prophets are PEOPLE!!!!!!

 

[Ingledsva]

LOL!

You might as well remain silent, if you are not actually going to provide rebuttal.

It makes me think you have nothing to use against what I have posted.

*

 

[Thana]

I don't think it is me who should prove something on this verse because you are the one who is giving the verse a meaning that I don't see. You have to prove your point. Why saying God is not a man is only talking about infallibility of the man? If a person found the bible in the desert and read this verse without prior knowledge to Christianity teachings, will he come to the same conclusion?

Do you want to know something awesome? Before you quoted that verse to me, I hadn't even read it. So yes, I believe that is the same conclusion anyone reasonable would come to when reading it. I was never taught anything about that passage.

Perhaps you forgot that you are claiming that Jesus peace be upon him is god. There is nothing necessary for a god.

You're just ignoring my words. If God wants something in a certain way, He follows His own will and His own path. So clearly He wanted Jesus to die for our sins for a reason, So that we could be as we are now.

Well let us take this from a different point of view.

So you are saying that God sent himself in the flesh of a human. That means God died?

"Jesus has two natures: divine and human. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the word (which was God) and became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1, 14). This is why it says in Colossians 2:9 that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form. Therefore, we can see that in the one person of Christ are two distinct natures. We do not say that there are two persons, nor do we say that the two natures are mixed up, formed a new third thing, or are not related in the single person known as Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, his human nature died. The divine nature did not die. Therefore, we see that the Trinity never ceased to exist;"

 

[Thana]

No, it is Monty Python. Strongly reccomended.

The point is: if you use a Hollywood movie as an argument, I can do the same. Especially when they have the same evidence of being factual.

I wasn't quoting it because I was using it as proof of anything, It was just a movie depicting Jesus's death in such a horribly and gory manner so I imagined that if you had watched it like I have you wouldn't be so casual about the death of Jesus.

Because I do have lot of excuses. Don't I?

Ciao

- viole

Not really.
I was talking about suffering so badly in life that you feel entitiled when you die, But since Jesus suffered worse then there are no excuses in that sense.

 

[psychoslice]

We are not carnal mind body, however there are things about God we can't know unless God tells us about. This is why there are prophets chosen by God to do so. And Jesus peace be upon him was one of them.

I disagree, but you are entitled to your beliefs.

 

[johnpeter1970]

You might as well remain silent, if you are not actually going to provide rebuttal.

It makes me think you have nothing to use against what I have posted.

*

Sorry Ingledsva! Let me explain.

Who is Jesus?
He is both the Savior and Judge. For believers, He is the Savior. For Unbelievers, he is the Judge. This is written in the Bible. It is also written that the Scripture would make no sense to unbelievers. That they would be offended by it.

So, the Bible must fulfill both this criteria and it does. You say none of the verse I qouted proofs Jesus as God. Of course it doesn't (to you). That is why you are not a Christian.

Jesus became the stumbling block as it is written:

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 9:33)

 

[Estro Felino]

I deeply respect all the people who believe that Jesus is not God.
But the reasons you posted are the same that explain why people don't believe that Jesus is God.
It's because people believe that the human nature is an evil nature. A imperfect nature filled with negative feelings like hatred, selfishness, individualism, competitiveness, etc..
But this is absolutely wrong.
The human nature is basically made of love.

when we are conceived by our parents, we are born through love. So thinking that we are born withe evil is a wrong vision: people delude themselves that it is true and become wicked.

so....given that people don't trust human nature and don't trust each other, they don't think that human nature is divine. actually it is. and Jesus proved it.
God became Flesh. and Jesus is the example of what God would do if he were a human,.
he would turn the other cheek. He would prefer to be killed instead of killing a human being. Out of love. But we call can sacrifice ourselves out of love. so we are not different than God

so...if we don't trust the divinity of our human nature, we can only hope to be saved by an external God.
and an external God, separated from us, has never existed.
God is within. He is inside us.
but if we believe that God is separated from us, we kill Him.
and from this conception of a God separated from us, derive all separations among men: wars, abuses, conflicts.

We must erase this vision of evil inside humans. It's a devilish vision. It's this vision which has brought evil into the world

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I know that most members debated that countless times and the debate is getting old, but actually I came through 2 verses in the bible that would explicitly say that Jesus peace be upon him was not god.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


Now there are many verses in the bible that do serve the same purpose, but I think these two would be enough for now and I would see how the discussion would progress.

As you move from the forums-
Well Itellyou-.
I am a Christian-.-
Interestin the teachings ofJesus-.
Are Muhammad's teachings are like the teachings ofJesus??
The teachings of Jesus is good, love and peace
These teachings are from God
And the presence of God among the people in Jesus
In these teachings
You deny that Jesus is God
Do you know what theQuran
About Christ –
Christ,the word of God
This moved from the Gospel of John
Word became flesh
Christ,the word of God
And the word was God
Cords
What is the Holy Spiritin the Qur'an
The Qur'an says
And we have supported it in the Holy Spirit??
We say
Father, son and holy spirit??
Why move the Qur'an the word Gospel??
Would you be able to identify the Holy Spirit-the
Is i t separate from God??
Why support??
Readthe Quran well-???
I do not believein the Qur'an
But the Qur'an proves that Christ is God too-
This contrasts Koran-.
In any case, if Jesus is God
Or Christ was a normal human being
I follow the teachings of Jesus
It's the best and finest of the teachings of Mohammed.
Through Christthe word know God
This means the result
That there is a match between God and Christ
So if I say that Christ is God
This is a logical consequence-.
For the correspondence between the description and the described
Meanthe Union
And the Union of Christ with God full mental Union
This is what I believe

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I deeply respect all the people who believe that Jesus is not God.
But the reasons you posted are the same that explain why people don't believe that Jesus is a man and not God.
It's because people believe that the human nature is an evil nature. A imperfect nature filled with negative feelings like hatred, selfishness, individualism, competitiveness, etc..
But this is absolutely wrong.
The human nature is basically made of love.

when we are conceived by our parents, we are born through love. So thinking that we are born withe evil is a wrong vision: people delude themselves that it is true and become wicked.

so....given that people don't trust human nature and don't trust each other, they don't think that human nature is divine. actually it is. and Jesus proved it.
God became Flesh. and Jesus is the example of what God would do if he were a human,.
he would turn the other cheek. He would prefer to be killed instead of killing a human being. Out of love. But we call can sacrifice ourselves out of love. so we are not different than God

so...if we don't trust the divinity of our human nature, we can only hope to be saved by an external God.
and an external God, separated from us, has never existed.
God is within. He is inside us.
but if we believe that God is separated from us, we kill Him.
and from this conception of a God separated from us, derive all separations among men: wars, abuses, conflicts.

We must erase this vision of evil inside humans. It's a devilish vision. It's this vision which has brought evil into the world

Christian says
The hypostasisin Christianity
Man and God
The Union betweenthe hypostasisin Christ
The body of Christisfull-
But with a significant difference
He was born with out a sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
Because the word of God
This is the Christian faith
Christ in the Gospel
No explicit talk was God
This is true
(No textin the Bible says(I am God))
This is true
But all the acts of Christ is identical with the qualities of God-
And also the words of the Gospel refers to the nature of Christ
No the hypostasis
In some verses of the Gospel of Christ to the human
And some verses of the Gospel according to Jesus God
This is the Christian faith
To believe that Christ man without sin sex
Because it does not appeal to God eternal
And that Christ is God to match attributes with the attributes of God
God is love
Jesus gave us this education
God loves us
Christ taught us this
It is for these reasons that faith in Christ is God is not a big problem
I'm looking
Who teach methis love
Christ taught methis
It is the only
Who said thatGod is love
This is the essence of God in Christianity and in Christ God

 

[Sabour]

You say "people distort things". Prophets are PEOPLE!!!!!!

Prophets are not normal people.They are chosen by God to share his message. When it comes to talking about who God and acting in the way of God they make no faults.

Prophets are examples for us to follow. They lived up the messages they came to share with humanity.

 

[Sabour]

You're just ignoring my words. If God wants something in a certain way, He follows His own will and His own path. So clearly He wanted Jesus to die for our sins for a reason, So that we could be as we are now.

I am not ignoring your words. We are basing our argument on you claiming that Jesus peace be upon him was god. If he was god, his prayers prove that he was unwilling to be crucified and than you say god follows his own will ......

"Jesus has two natures: divine and human. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the word (which was God) and became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1, 14). This is why it says in Colossians 2:9 that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form. Therefore, we can see that in the one person of Christ are two distinct natures. We do not say that there are two persons, nor do we say that the two natures are mixed up, formed a new third thing, or are not related in the single person known as Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, his human nature died. The divine nature did not die. Therefore, we see that the Trinity never ceased to exist;"

That is not the way I read John 1.1

It doesn't say that Jesus peace be upon him was God, it only says that Jesus peace be upon him became the word of God.

And what you said about the nature about Jesus peace be upon him is false. Let me quote you the verse in the OP again.

Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


God is very clear about his nature and it should be understood by all people.

 

[JM2C]

I think you are missing the point.
No matter how many times you can implicitly state the Jesus peace be upon him was god, as you did in the verses you are quoting, there are always explicit statement from the bible which contradict that.

As I pointed them out to you from the bible, the only source of my argument, that there was no contradiction at all.
AHEM! AHEM! FOR THE 6TH OR 7TH TIMES, AGAIN, READ AND UNDERSTAND:

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

WORD/God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to understand here?

The four gospels were the narration of the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus in the FLESH. Now, why did it say in John 1:14 “the WORD became flesh”? From where did the “WORD” came from? From verses 1-2. What did it say in verses 1-2 about the “WORD”? “THE WORD WAS GOD”

This is a very simple deductive reasoning. There is no way one could make a mistake by just READING it, and if you READ it correctly or unbiasedly you will end with the same conclusion, and that is, comprehension or UNDERSTANDING.

 

[JM2C]

You are limiting yourself to certain verses in the bible and neglecting others.

Until you prove those verses were exegetically invalid then I will repost them again, and again until you understand. Let me ask you, do you believe that the Lord Jesus was crucified, that is, died on the cross, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures/OT?

 

[savagewind]

Prophets are not normal people.They are chosen by God to share his message. When it comes to talking about who God and acting in the way of God they make no faults.

Prophets are examples for us to follow. They lived up the messages they came to share with humanity.

So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. Matthew 23:3

I am aware you hear only what you want to hear. Prophets are not perfect. Check out the prophets' biographies. You make them a class above the rest but my Lord says "one flock one shepherd".
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

I see you believe there are many shepherds. One Earth. One humanity. One God. One shepherd.

 

[Harikrish]

You have to separate what Jesus said he was from what the authors of the NT Bible say he was.
Jesus himself did not know what he was and had to ask his disciples what the people were saying he was and what they thought he was? And when Peter called him the Christ, he did not correct Peter. So we know Jesus did not believe he was God or he would have corrected Peter.

Luke 9:18 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I am?"
19 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life."
20 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "The Christ of God."
21 Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.

Why didn't Jesus want the people to know what he was? Who was going to tell them and how could they believe him if they were not told what he was by his disciples or himself?

Jesus let out his doubts about his beliefs even as the messiah in the final moments before he died.


Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Jesus could not make himself a God. He repeatedly called God his Father in Heaven.


But why did he believe his Father was God?

Joseph told Jesus he was not his real father and it is quite unlikely anyone stepped forward and claimed to be Jesus's real father because adultery was punishable by death. So what was a disturbed young Jesus to do? He searched the scriptures for answers. There is evidence of his early obsession with scriptures. At the age of 12 he was already well versed in the Bible and called the temple his Father's house. And henceforth he called God his Father even before his parents.

Luke 2:46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.
47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.
48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"

 

[JM2C]

For example, here is an explicit statement, John 14:28

"The Father is greater than I."

Here is another explicit statement

"I do nothing of myself" - John 8:28

Explicit from what argument? From your premise “Jesus is not God”? I could make the same explicit argument against your premise “Jesus is not God” and that is, Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Will that makes your argument implicit by saying that my argument were more accurate? NO! You’re playing semantics here with your twisted interpretation of the bible that you said you are “NOT A BELIEVER IN THE BIBLE”.

I am not a believer in the bible, I don't take all of what the bible says.

You say “I am not a believer in the bible” but you are trying to disprove me with verses that came from the bible on which you have no interest or faith. How can you tell which verses are true from false if you don’t believe in the bible? Christianity is a revealed religion.

 

[savagewind]

He is not a believer in the Bible but he believes prophets are perfect men. Who wrote the Bible?

 

[Sabour]

Until you prove those verses were exegetically invalid then I will repost them again, and again until you understand. Let me ask you, do you believe that the Lord Jesus was crucified, that is, died on the cross, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures/OT?

And I will keep posting the other verses which contradict the point you are trying to make until you read and understand.... I wonder what that tactic will serve for our discussion,

Jesus peace be upon him was not crucified nor killed. That is what I believe.

However I am not arguing that point but the thread is about something else.

 

[Sabour]

So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. Matthew 23:3

I am aware you hear only what you want to hear. Prophets are not perfect. Check out the prophets' biographies. You make them a class above the rest but my Lord says "one flock one shepherd".
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

I see you believe there are many shepherds. One Earth. One humanity. One God. One shepherd.

I don't know what Matthew is trying to say, but prophets do live the message they share with humanity, otherwise they wouldn't have been prophets.

What about the prophets' biographies? Are they extracted from the bible stories where Lot was drunk and did what he did? Where Noah was an alcoholic ?

Stories of the prophets in the bible get twisted. These are not the real stories of the prophets.