Jesus is not god

[viole]

He was also a man that could feel pain just as much as anyone of us, It was that way for a reason. So that no matter what we suffered, We'd know that He had suffered too and that we have no excuses.

Well, real humans stay dead when they die, usually.

And in all honesty, if I knew that I will be back after a couple of days as the eternal ruler of the Universe, I don't think I would be so much afraid. For sure, I would never complain for something that was planned and communicated in advance, without looking schizophrenic.

Why should I be afraid? Because of some whipping?

So, I am not sure who has no excuses, as you put it. Me, for not believing that a God, or one third thereof, can have last minute's doubts about Himself or the other two thirds, or you, for believing this nonsense.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Thana]

Well, real humans stay dead when they die, usually.

And in all honesty, if I knew that I will be back after a couple of days as the eternal ruler of the Universe, I don't think I would be so much afraid.

Why should I? Because of some whipping?

So, I am not sure who has no excuses, as you put it. Me, for not believing that a God, or one third thereof, can have last minute's doubts about Himself or the other two thirds, or you, for believing this nonsense.

Ciao

- viole

I'm guessing you've never seen the movie Passion of the Christ, Otherwise I doubt you'd be so blasé about the death of Jesus. Crucification is torture and it lasts for days. It's not an easy death, Not to mention the beating and whipping He took beforehand with whips that would tear the flesh from His back.

I won't take offence at you calling my beliefs nonsense, I'm sure from an Atheistic perspective they may seem that way but then again, I'm not arrogant enough to call someones precious beliefs nonsense so I wouldn't know exactly what kind of perspective it would take.

 

[savagewind]

I have found it is true that suffering is magnified by the unknown. How long will it last? How bad will it get? Is it for nothing? Jesus as God would have no unkowns about his crucifiction. So even though God as man would have sufferered he would not have suffered the same as humans do.

 

[viole]

I'm guessing you've never seen the movie Passion of the Christ, Otherwise I doubt you'd be so blasé about the death of Jesus. Crucification is torture and it lasts for days. It's not an easy death, Not to mention the beating and whipping He took beforehand with whips that would tear the flesh from His back.

Well, at least it was in the open air.

I guess you never saw the movie "the Life of Brian".

I won't take offence at you calling my beliefs nonsense, I'm sure from an Atheistic perspective they may seem that way but then again, I'm not arrogant enough to call someones precious beliefs nonsense so I wouldn't know exactly what kind of perspective it would take.

Cool, I will not take offence for telling me I have no excuses, either.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Thana]

Well, at least it was in the open air.

I guess you never saw the movie "the Life of Brian".

Erm, no? I've heard of it though.. A war movie or something right? No I think I'm thinking of saving private ryan, Which I haven't seen either.

Sorry what is your point I'm not sure what you're talking about?

Cool, I will not take offence for telling me I have no excuses, either.

Ciao

- viole

Why would you?

 

[viole]

Erm, no? I've heard of it though.. A war movie or something right? No I think I'm thinking of saving private ryan, Which I haven't seen either.

Sorry what is your point I'm not sure what you're talking about?

No, it is Monty Python. Strongly reccomended.

The point is: if you use a Hollywood movie as an argument, I can do the same. Especially when they have the same evidence of being factual.

Why would you?

Because I do have lot of excuses. Don't I?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sabour]

I think it is very obvious that it is OK to see Jesus either way. The Bible seems to indicate Jesus is God and if you read it that way then Jesus is God. The Bible also indicates Jesus is not God and if you want to read it that way then Jesus is not God. Unless you are God The Father there is NO WAY of knowing either is true. To be insisting Jesus is God or Jesus is not God reveals in the person self righteousness and a trusting in MAN who wrote it both ways.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your response.

If the bible can not define who God is, how one can accept it as having answers ?

 

[Nada]

I know that most members debated that countless times and the debate is getting old, but actually I came through 2 verses in the bible that would explicitly say that Jesus peace be upon him was not god.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


Now there are many verses in the bible that do serve the same purpose, but I think these two would be enough for now and I would see how the discussion would progress.

Yes...Jesus is NOT God the Almighty.He is the Son of God the Almighty.

 

[Sabour]

I cannot debate you from my own opinion only and that was the reason I presented you how God became flesh in

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God in verses 1 and 2 “became flesh” in verse 14. What is so hard to understand here?

Your argument here “Jesus of Nazareth was a man” should be understood as how God became flesh in John 1:14.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

And if you read these 2 verses it says the same thing.

Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

As human, He/Jesus came from the line of David according to the scriptures in the OT of course and please READ AND UNDERSTAND this, His human genealogy in –Jn 1:14-, in Luke 3:23-38 and in Matthew 1:1-17 we can read that He is related, in the flesh, to Isaac, the half- brother of Ishmael.

In verse 4 of Romans chapter 1 you can read that after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit declared Him/Jesus as the Son of God. And in Hebrews 1:8 God the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob called His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, as God.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Let me ask you, is Ishmael a direct ancestor of Muhammad, or can you trace Muhammad’s genealogy to Ishmael? I don’t think so, because you have no written proof that he was from Ishmael, not at all.

I think you are missing the point.

No matter how many times you can implicitly state the Jesus peace be upon him was god, as you did in the verses you are quoting, there are always explicit statement from the bible which contradict that.

You are limiting yourself to certain verses in the bible and neglecting others. You keep on quoting other verses to prove your point and I can quote many verses to prove mine. Which verses are stronger mine or yours? I would say min are stronger because statement I am quoting from the bible are explicit statements whereas your statements are implicit ones and an explicit statement overwrites an implicit statement every single time.

For example, here is an explicit statement, John 14:28
"The Father is greater than I."

Here is another explicit statement
"I do nothing of myself" - John 8:28

Now whatever verses you would be quoting to indicate that Jesus peace be upon him was god, they will be in direct contradiction to these two verses.

 

[Sabour]

So? You're taught it in the first place, Whether you verify it after the fact is irrelevant.

Any thing you would say on this matter would be applying to you also. So be free to think what you want.

So I'm wrong because....? I mean you haven't provided a reason why I am wrong except because you don't like it.

I don't think it is me who should prove something on this verse because you are the one who is giving the verse a meaning that I don't see. You have to prove your point. Why saying God is not a man is only talking about infallibility of the man? If a person found the bible in the desert and read this verse without prior knowledge to Christianity teachings, will he come to the same conclusion?

Like I said before, It was necessary for the Salvation of the Gentiles.

Perhaps you forgot that you are claiming that Jesus peace be upon him is god. There is nothing necessary for a god.

He isn't bound except by His own will, So He follows a certain path because He wants the outcome. So He sent Himself in the flesh of a human son to graft in the Gentiles into the Convenant made with His people. I'm sure He could have found another way, Heck, He could of just made us without free will, Just robots that worshipped and loved Him because we knew nothing else. But no, there is a reason for everything and I believe that Jesus was sent in such a way as to limit God's effect on Free will.

Well let us take this from a different point of view.

So you are saying that God sent himself in the flesh of a human. That means God died?

 

[Sabour]

Yes...Jesus is NOT God the Almighty.He is the Son of God the Almighty.

That would be debatable according to what you mean with the word Son

 

[Nada]

That would be debatable according to what you mean with the word Son

You already know........

 

[Sabour]

You already know........

I am afraid not

What game are we playing

 

[savagewind]

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your response.

If the bible can not define who God is, how one can accept it as having answers ?

It has a lot of answers. Who strips himself bare for all to see is not wise. God is wise. God is not naked for all to see.

Humankind wishes to define God even before it learns to define it's self. To do so is not good or fair.

 

[Sabour]

It has a lot of answers. Who strips himself bare for all to see is not wise. God is wise. God is not naked for all to see.

Humankind wishes to define God even before it learns to define it's self. To do so is not good or fair.

Well of ourselves we can't know God and be certain of that of course. But do you think God would send us to this world without telling us and giving us answers to such questions? Isn't that the purpose of having prophets?

 

[savagewind]

Well of ourselves we can't know God and be certain of that of course. But do you think God would send us to this world without telling us and giving us answers to such questions? Isn't that the purpose of having prophets?

I don't believe God sent me here and I don't believe in prophets. I believe answers come to some questions by trust in God and trust in truth and by asking. There must be no break in the asking. Like I want to know, no, I don't want to know, I don't like the answer I'd like another answer I changed my mind I would like an answer.......

I think it is not fair to prophets to lean on their answers because if they get anything wrong then to lean on their answers is to allow them to stumble you. To stumble another soul is one of the worst crimes or the worst crime.

 

[Sabour]

I don't believe God sent me here and I don't believe in prophets. I believe answers come to some questions by trust in God and trust in truth and by asking. There must be no break in the asking. Like I want to know, no, I don't want to know, I don't like the answer I'd like another answer I changed my mind I would like an answer.......

I think it is not fair to prophets to lean on their answers because if they get anything wrong then to lean on their answers is to allow them to stumble you. To stumble another soul is one of the worst crimes or the worst crime.

That is why there were progressive revelations and many prophets that came and they were guided by God. However at a certain point the revelations were completed and we had the last prophet. Does that not make sense?

 

[savagewind]

That is why there were progressive revelations and many prophets that came and they were guided by God. However at a certain point the revelations were completed and we had the last prophet. Does that not make sense?

I understand why someone might think so. Do you understand that to put trust in a person, even a real prophet, means not loving the person/prophet? Because to be in charge of someone else's conscience is a heavy and a dangerous occupation. And nobody has ever escaped unscathed.

 

[Sabour]

I understand why someone might think so. Do you understand that to put trust in a person, even a real prophet, means not loving the person/prophet? Because to be in charge of someone else's conscience is a heavy and a dangerous occupation. And nobody has ever escaped unscathed.

You are not supposed to blindly put trust in a person, you are supposed to study it and take your time. Just like for example you studied the bible. There are also other things like asking God for guidance, after all you are not trusting a prophet, you are trusting God and asking him for guidance.

 

[savagewind]

You are not supposed to blindly put trust in a person, you are supposed to study it and take your time. Just like for example you studied the bible. There are also other things like asking God for guidance, after all you are not trusting a prophet, you are trusting God and asking him for guidance.

I am seeing a common trend which makes prophets into gods. They say obeying their leaders is the same as obeying God. Now you say "after all you are not trusting a prophet, you are trusting God".

If I had a ticket out I'd leave. It is crazy calling human opinion GOD.