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Featured Jesus is not God Almighty Himself

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    To be fair, the entirety of the New testament were written by Jewish people :D
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'll give you an example of the unreliability of the KJV in its vain attempt to support the trinity doctrine.

    As we know, John 1:1 says..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." But in verse 18 it says..."No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

    Now the word "theos" is used in both verses, yet the KJV translates "Son" in verse 18...why? If it translates "son" in verse 18 then it should also translate "son" in verse 1, which would make it read "In the beginning was the Word....and the Word was the son".

    The agenda is clear...bias in translation. The NASB read: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." But you see, then you have to explain, if Jesus was God why no man has ever seen God, and how a "god" can be "begotten". To be "begotten" means one needs a 'begetter' who existed first.

    The impression is clear when you know the truth. Have you not heard of agency? The scripture plainly says that all things were created "through" the son. That does not make him the Creator. Only the Father is the Creator, bringing forth the raw materials of creation from the exercise of his immense power.....Jesus is the 'construction engineer', using those raw materials provided by God to fashion everything in creation, both in heaven and on earth. He is "before all things" because he was created first. "The beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14)


    Paul is making a statement based on what he knew....Jesus was the "image" of his Father....an image is a reflection of the real thing. He wrote..."For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) Paul did not seem to be confused as to who their "one God" was.

    The son reflected his Father's qualities and relayed to his disciples all his Father's teachings...(John 14:31)
    If Jesus was first, then "other" is implied. The scripture does not change if you leave it out.

    Jehovah has many sons, but he has only one "firstborn". He is "only begotten" which means that he was brought into existence by his Father. Have you never wondered why the relationship of God and his son are familial like humans? Spirit beings do not reproduce, yet God uses the relationship of a father and son as humans would understand it. They are not equals because a father always exists before a son. A father is always older.

    Jesus is not the Creator. He put together what God provided by way of the raw materials. Creation came "through" him, not from him. He arranged those materials like any good builder does when following the plans of a Master Architect. What "beginning" do you imagine is spoken about here? God is eternal...no beginning...no end.

    Yes, to Jews who wanted an excuse to get rid of an embarrassing thorn in their side, making an accusation of blasphemy would give them an excuse to demand his death. But since he only ever claimed only to be "God's son", they really didn't have the grounds to have him executed. Pilate knew it, but was forced into handing him over when the mob got ugly.
     
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  3. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    You can start a private conversation with me. we can try and organize one over the next few days :)
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you can explain how you understand how Revelation 3:12, 13 supports your belief in the trinity, and your statement
    ...and how that statement can be reconciled with Exodus 7:1.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    The word means god also, doesn't it?
     
  6. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    Okay I'm going to change up the conversation a bit because I'm hearing the same points. It seems the creation of Christ seems to be a major fallibility in the Trinity doctrine. However one needs to ask the following questions:

    1) When we hear the words "begotten, firstborn" etc, are the authors writing about creation or relationship? Note that the word 'create' is never explicitly used.
    2) Why would Yahweh (Jealous) create another 'god'?
    3) What is the difference between Son of God and God? And how is divinity distributed? Did the Jewish writers or audience see a difference between the two?
    4) Why does Jesus never deny himself to be God when the disciples addressed him as such? In fact, Jesus claimed oneness to the Father multiple times in the Gospel of John.

    Rather than the vague notion of firstborn/begotten, the scriptures are clear that Jesus was not created:
    '"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord , "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.' Isaiah 43:10

    '"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." ' Revelation 1:8 [Jesus speaking]

    'Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. ' Hebrews 7:3


    Now you say that the Father provided the materials and everything was created through the Son, but is that what John was entailing? The author who wrote: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.'?

    This is the account of the creation story according to Genesis:
    'Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. ' Genesis 1:26-27

    Clearly in this passage, the Son is involved in the creation alongside the Father, and both of them are referred to as God in one entity. If you state otherwise you need to explain to me whose image we bear. Yahweh? Christ?


    No one owns the truth, nor can we know the truth fully as human beings, and the scripture makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 13:12. However we can come close to that truth, and only if God reveals it to us.

    'For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. ' 1 Corinthians 2:10-11
     
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  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The only difference between the Tanakh and the Christian bible.
    Is that the Tanakh has ( Nephilim)
    ( Nobles) and the Christian bible has
    ( giants ) ( sons of God)


    Here's the Tanakh 6:4-- "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown"
    And here's the Christian bible Genesis 6:4---"There were giants in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown"
    So can you explain exactly how these
    ( giants) ( Nephilim) had children by the daughters of men, if it were not by sex with them ?
     
  8. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    What was He humbling itself FROM? Heavenly divinity. He was in the Beginning, creating all things, while not Himself created.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I don't know what your definition of trinity, is, you're getting off track.

    Jesus via the Angel, is telling John what to write.
    Jesus says, via the Angel, 'tell this church that I will'...
    Via John.
    It is Johns "my God", that is referred to.
    Hence, 'I will make him a pillar in the Temple of my God', means,
    I will make him a pillar in the Temple of God, [John's God.
    John's God, is for at least some trinitarians, Jehovah, & Jesus.

    Using your methodology, it can mean Zeus, or a person, or Satan, or anything you want, however, why don't we presume it doesn't, then it simply means, the Abba. The Temple of my Abba. You do believe that the Abba, is 'God', right...? Your methodology does not actually, even, signify, that Jesus isn't God, via this verse.
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 3 (KJV)
    1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

    2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

    3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

    4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

    8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

    9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    I'm sorry, but do you realize this is evidence you do not have God's spirit, as you believe.... that it is a different spirit - a powerful one at that, but clearly, a misleading one.

    I really would be happy to have you as my brother, but how do you read... do you realize?
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Opinion noted. You should be open to other peoples beliefs.
     
    #131 Desert Snake, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    It's not an opinion. The Bible spoke, not me.

    I respect other people's beliefs, but if you push them as truth from the Bible, be prepared to have them challenged. If you can't support them scripturally, you should be open to people's - truth lovers' to be more exact - obligation to show them up for what they are, and smack them down.

    An apostle of Christ wrote these instructions.
    2 Corinthians 10:4-6
    4For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 6and we are prepared to inflict punishment for every disobedience, as soon as your own obedience is complete.

    I would like to think you respect persons, but you won't be open to lies or falsehood. I would like to think that if you love God and Christ, you would not be happy to hear persons spreading falsehood.
    Especially if you love them, you would reason with them, in the hope that once they see that their beliefs are not in line with scripture, they would try to get the right understanding.

    That's humility, isn't that so?
    The religious leaders throughout the centuries from Bible times, were the ones intent on keeping Jesus' sheep in darkness - wandering about lost. How can a lost sheep be properly cared for if it can't find the shepherd?

    Jesus sent out his followers for this reason.
    So it is love, on our part, to try to help others identify the truth from the lie - which the doctrine of the trinity is, along with the other teachings like hell-fire, that dishonor God.

    It's our love for God, foremost, that moves us to advocate truth.
    2 Timothy 4:2-5
    2Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

    You are here to debate right? Me to.
    Are you armed? I am.
    Do you have what it takes to wield the sword skillfully?

    Revelation 3 has spoken. Jesus referred to the father as his God - contrary to what you said.
    Your response?
     
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Hebrews 1:1-2
    God, Jesus, here, by whom the world's were made.
    Genesis 1:26
    The name there is God.
    And you never explained your interpretation of the word god used, in Genesis 1:26
    Hebrews 1:4
    Jesus is above the Angels. Do you know what is above the Angels?
    Hebrews 1:6
    The Angels worship Jesus. Is that idolatry?
    Hebrews 1:8
    The Abba, calls Jesus God.
    That is because, Jesus's other name, is God.

    When the Abba, calls Jesus God, it means that Jesus is our God.
    When Jesus calls the Abba God, it means that the Abba is our God.
    Whoever you believe the Abba, to be, or Jesus, to be, they are both called God, because that is one of their names, because they are both God.
     
    #133 Desert Snake, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That's not fair B.
    You have to parry my blow first.
    I handle my sword skillfully - I don't aim to miss, and I aim to deliver a fatal blow on the first strike. So if you fail to put your shield in the right place - that's it... battle finished.

    If we use the method you are here presenting, we would be back and forth, and make no progress.
    So you have to block my strike first.

    Either provide scripture(s) to show the Jesus's God is not his Father, or prove that Jesus can have the Father as his God, and still be God.

    You did bring along your shield... did you? ;)
     
  15. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Hellenized Jews, exposed to pagan ideas, evil underworld gods, and hells, etc.

    But even so, as shown, their texts do not say Jesus is YHVH. They only claim that he is Messiah.

    Nor is trinity found there. That came in much later.

    *
     
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  16. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Obviously, - IN CONTEXT.

    Moses obviously didn't become Pharaoh's god. He became Pharaoh's Magistrate/Judge.

    In Psalm 82 those humans obviously aren't made Gods by the ONE God YHVH, - whom said he would have no other gods before him!

    The whole text is about the appointed ones, the elohiym/judges, not doing their jobs.

    Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

    In 1 Sam 2 - Again Judges.

    1Sa 2:25 If one man sin against another, the judge (Elohiym) shall judge him: but if a man sin against YHVH, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

    If in a verse about YHVH, it is properly translated as GOD.

    Used with anyone else it means the other definitions of the word. Usually appointed ones, Judge/Magistrate, Kings, including the awaited special human Messiah whom would bring the end and final Judgment.

    *
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    As you said, context is important.

    God said ...
    "I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet."
    This was after Moses said that he was not a good speaker.

    Usually when we think of a prophet of God, we not only think of one delivering a message, but one who speaks God's word, and it comes true.

    This is what we saw happen. Aaron spoke what would happen. Moses raised his staff, and God's message spoken through his prophet came true.

    So I think Moses was like God to Pharaoh in the sense that God gave Moses power and authority over Pharaoh. When Pharaoh saw the word come true, he would likely believe that the miracles were of divine origin.

    I think that would have given Moses some confidence.
     
  18. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Obviously you didn't actually read what I wrote concerning the nephilim. I even included a CHRISTIAN commentary saying they are just humans.

    The "Sons of God" humans following YHVH - had sex "with the fallen" other people, non believers/pagans, etc., which they were told not to do.

    The verses I provided make it plain that the sons of Anak are Canaanites and are Nephilim.

    Obviously they are humans, not angel - human hybrids.

    AGAIN - As to Nephilim -

    There is absolutely no reason to take this as a mating between angels and humans.

    The "Sons of God" are the Hebrew. They started mixing with other people "daughters of men". Nephilim means mighty/stature, etc., not actually giants.

    Gen 6:2 That the sons of Elohiym/God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    Gen 6:4 There were nephilim/giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    "2. Mixed marriages (Gen_6:2): The sons of God (that is, the professors of religion, who were called by the name of the Lord, and called upon that name), married the daughters of men, that is, those that were profane, and strangers to God and godliness. ..." Matthew Henry's Commentary On The Whole Bible

    Here is the second use - showing absolutely that the nephilim are just mighty men.

    Num 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.

    Num 13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.

    Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.

    Num 13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

    Num 13:33 And there we saw the nephilim/giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the nephilim/giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

    Anak is a Canaanite, - not an actual giant. Look him up.

    They were afraid because the people of that land had reputations as mighty warriors. Thus they felt small, like grasshoppers that are going to get squished, - going up against them.

    *
     
  19. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    What you have said here changes nothing concerning what I wrote.

    Obviously YHVH did not make Moses a GOD, - he made him a judge of Pharaoh.

    Every verse using humans has a definition other then GOD, as has been noted.

    How exactly would a human be a God because he did magic? Pharaoh's magicians also did magic and had serpents appear. Are they Gods?

    Supposedly the disciples also did magic - are they Gods?

    Of course they are not Gods.

    What do they all have in common? They are all chosen or anointed ones.

    Teachers, prophets, and Judges. And those are the other definitions which you can find in your Strong's.

    *
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should get to your own Tanakh, because the Nephilim are half human and half Celestial beings.
     
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