Jesus is God?

[crystalonyx]

And look pretty good considering his wounds. He may have been hungry, but the Scriptures put him in remarkably good physical and spiritual condition. Jesus died because of the sheer beating he got and then they nail him to a cross. He died quickly, enough to surprise Pilot. Jesus died, any biblical attempt to prove other wise is silly.

Actually, proving that a man named Jesus that remotely resembles the biblical one actually existed is impossible.

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually, proving that a man named Jesus that remotely resembles the biblical one actually existed is impossible.

Judging by the weight of Jesus in history it is impossible to disprove His existence.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

tsk tsk tsk! you make things complicated when its all in the verse...:slap:


Let me give you another one ...

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.:bow:

The word is Christ, the word that became flesh!

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


:sleep::sleep::sleep:

The Word became the entire universe and any other universes, not just one man buried in the midst of history.

Regards,
Scott

 

[crystalonyx]

Judging by the weight of Jesus in history it is impossible to disprove His existence.

Regards,
Scott

What weight in history? You're confusing historical records with myth.

 

[Muffled]

Are you suggesting he wasn't?

Exodus 33:23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]23[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] Then I will remove my hand, and you will see me from behind. But my face will not be seen."[/FONT]

If I saw you from behind then don't you think I was looking at your back?

Only if you prefer to speculate and read more into it that is not apparent.



Ahhh.....now we agree. It wasn't that saw he God "literally" face to face. It was his perception he was face to face with God. In the last post, you didn't go into detail.

Ok...I have no problem with Yeshua trying his best to describe God. That wasn't really the point I was trying to make but so far I'm sort of in agreement with you.

I think I might start my own bible translation..... The Bible By (Dirty Penguin)....

John 1:18
No one has ever seen the Father at any time; except he whom God has sent, who was nearest to the Father, he has told us about him.

ehhh!!!

Not bad but I'll stick to my day job........::cover:

Yes. I would be very surprised if God spoke to Moses face to face in other scriptures but chose to speak to him with his back turned in Ex 34:5. Nice try but you are referring to a different scripture Ex 33:23 from the one I referred to. In 33:23 God is showing His glory and who knows what that means except that Moses was told that he could only see part of it.

There is very little apparent. It raises more questions than it answers.

We are not in agreement on that. An assumption that God did not take on human form to speak to Moses is a speculation on your part.

I've thought about that too but I am sure that I am not called by God to do it.


John 1:18 No one has ever seen God in His spiritual essence, the only conceived Son who is the very heart of God displays God's attrributes through Himself.


I like mine better but I was going by the translation, not the original Greek and who knows how that might change my perspective? At any rate, since I am working for God, I don't have to quit and besides I like the pay.

 

[Muffled]

Here we go again. Look you rode that (Apple Pie) Gravy train for as long as he was man enough to stick around. Now he has fled this site leaving you holding the bag. He tried his hardest to turn arabic upside down using Lane's Lexicon and quoting translators of the Quran that translated it from the classical arabic...but what he didn't realize is he (Apple Pie) was no scholar and had a serious lack of understanding of the arabic language and the Quran. I used the same scholar he used to refute his claim. That scholar was not in agreement with him and incidentally that scholar also had used the SAME lexicon (Apple Pie) was using. As I told him as well as you. The Quran is in TOTAL disagreement with you as far as the deity of Yeshua, crucifixion and that God has a son. If there were such a verse in your favor it would have been displayed...instead...he left this forum with his tail between his legs. This wasn't the first or the last forum he had been a member of using those tactics. You bought into it.....But he was wrong.

Fine...great......But this is a change in direction from when we were debating in that thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/778499-post222.html

The claim that was made was about Muhammed's wives. Muhammed vs. Solomon...You be the judge.

I agree. Christian, Muslim or Jew....all fair game when it comes to scripture they thump.

You may be in the minority of christians who except the Quran as the word of God. Now since you believe it's the word of God why are you a christian and not a muslim? Contrary to what you might think the Quran and it's way (Islam) does not agree with your christian tradition of making Yeshua God.

Be careful because of your christian brethren may kick you out of the club....[/quote]

You didn't prove He was wrong only that you disagreed with him. Yes it is difficult for me to argue from original languages without some assistance but I have noticed something about original words, that they can have different meanings and the translator has to select the correct meaning and sometimes words don't have a good English equivalent. That is why there can be many different translations for the same word.

Solomon was a sinner also and David and Israel (Jacob) and Abraham.

Christianity provides me with a closer relationship with God and saves me from sin. Islam and Judaism are "faith of Abraham" religions and God says that can work for some people and Mohammed was one of those people but it never worked that well for me (RE: faith of Abraham within Christianity).

Obviously that is your opinion but not mine.

That has already happened. However on parting my Christian brothers did not disown me but weren't able to agree and that dissension made it difficult for us to work together. It is sort of a Paul and Barnabus thing. As far as I know I walk alone. I have never met anyone else with a similar belief. Even converts from Islam tend to disown the Qu'ran which I consider unnecessary and as far as I am concerned since Messianic Christians can worship like Jews why shouldn't an Islamic Christian be able to worship like a Muslim.

 

[emiliano]

Do cursing a fig tree, causing pigs to drown, and fighting with people in the temple count as sins?

I don’t know how much you know on the subjects that you inquire or if it worth my time, but here we go, the cursing of the tree is an illustration to a lesson that Jesu gave to his disciples, What do you think that that lesson was? The drowning of the pig, notice that legion were thousands of territorial demons torturing a man, notice also that they themselves asked to be send to the pigs, these demons were demons that possessed human and wanted to continue doing so, by killing themselves they could come back to inhabit in humans again, fighting with people in the temple? Where do you see this in the account? He turned tables and droved the cattle out of the temple, He debated people in that occasion as he often did, but fighting?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

tsk tsk tsk! you make things complicated when its all in the verse...:slap:

Please. You who subscribe to the trinity concept make things more complicated than what they are. You say Yeshua is God who came to earth as a man to shed blood for the sins of his creation. Although he is God he is man. Although he is son of God he is God. Although he is God, he died and ascended to heaven to sit on the right hand of God.

I'm quite sure I missed something so feel free to add to this confusion.....

Let me give you another one ...

Ah yes, the famous John the baptist quotes. Whenever I find chrsitians in a pickle to explain Yeshua's prayer in the whole of John 17 to his god they whip out (John 1:1, and 1:14)

John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We have to try to get into the mind of John to see what he meant and to see If Yeshua touched on this or offered any clarification as to the (word).

Yes....No doubt that in the beginning was the word, the word is from God so the word is God. The word of God was taught to Yeshua in heaven and his god instructed him what he should say. Yeshua was tasked at bringing the word of God to earth.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he (Please note ere he does not mean God. He means The Messiah), and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.


Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

John 17:4
I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do. (NOTE: This is right after 17:3 where he tells us he is not God)

This is right from your scripture. My quotes are in a continuous stream from John 8 to 17. They all echo one clear thing..... He was not God. The word was given to him so this answers 1:14. The word of God was given to him. Yeshua kept God's word and gave it to man. This is what is meant by (the word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us)

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

As John (The Baptist) would later say.....that Yeshua was sent by his god on his god's behalf to speak the word of God whom God bestowed upon Yeshua the spirit not by measure or limit.

John 3:34
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.[/FONT]

Now do you see it. God sent him and he speaks (God's word)....Not his own words. As a matter of fact Yeshua confirms that the words he spoke were not his but they were from his god that sent him. So God's (word) was put into the flesh (given to and taught by) of a man to be given to everyone else.

John 17:14
I have given them your (his god's) word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.


So the word was made flesh (sent forth through) Yeshua to be given to man but some hated what he had to say.

 

[crystalonyx]

I don’t know how much you know on the subjects that you inquire or if it worth my time, but here we go, the cursing of the tree is an illustration to a lesson that Jesu gave to his disciples, What do you think that that lesson was? The drowning of the pig, notice that legion were thousands of territorial demons torturing a man, notice also that they themselves asked to be send to the pigs, these demons were demons that possessed human and wanted to continue doing so, by killing themselves they could come back to inhabit in humans again, fighting with people in the temple? Where do you see this in the account? He turned tables and droved the cattle out of the temple, He debated people in that occasion as he often did, but fighting?

This is somehow unconvincing.

 

[Video3]

Could it be that the Messiah came first to pay for the sin of the world, and will come again to rule and bring peace? There are over 300 prophecies concerning the Messiah in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in Jesus. How about Isaiah chapter 53, have you read that? There are 27 prophecies in the old testament concerning the events of the crucifixion alone. If you are at all interested, I could list some with the verses, let me know. Jesus was always explaining that he must first suffer in order to fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies, but they didn't get it because they were looking for the Glorious Messiah who would set up his Kingdom. Not until he was ressurected, did they understand. Anyway, just tell me if you need some verses that have the prophecies about him in the Old Testament, I know you believe in the Old Testament, right?

I'd like to take up a few points raised by joeboonda.
He asks if we have ever read Isaiah 53. Why just 53? Why not 52 13-15 where the chapter actually starts? Who is the servant referred to in the book of Isaiah? If you had bothered to read the previous chapters you'kll see that G-d is referring to the righteous remnant of Israel. Please do not quote bit of the bible out of context.
Also the so called 300m prophecies that you say Jesus fulfilled. You can only arrive at this through circular reasoning, i.e. these are about the Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah therefore it must be about Jesus. WRONG Most of these are not prphecies at all simply verses taken out of context or mistranslated or simply made up. If we look at the Messianic prophecies that are exhaustive and exclusive, e.g. world peace, the rebuilding of the temple, the ingathering of ALL the exiles, universal knowledge of G-d we see that Jesus did not fulfil a single one of these. Also, there is NO reference in the Hebrew scriptures to the Messiah having to return to fulfil the messianic prophecies.
At the end of the day there is the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian scriptures and they are diametrically opposed. As Jews we can only believe in one G-d who never has and never will have any human form.
Let's face it when the authors of the New Testament wrote their gospels it was a simple thing to create a story around a so called prophecy. It's so easy to to be wise after the event. To quote RG Price, Jesus is a veyy Jewish Myth. Mark wrote the first Gospel and Mattherw and Luke copied large chunks from Mark with additional sources of their own. How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You didn't prove He was wrong only that you disagreed with him.

He attempted to become a translator using a lexicon in which he was not qualified to do. Not only did he show a lack of understanding of the language but he showed he knew very little of the Quran itself. He attempted to push out scholars in which he said agreed with him so I went and got that scholars rendering of the Quran and it totally disagreed with him. This scholar he cited and wanted to use also used the same lexicon he was using. So Apple Pie found himself in a pickle. How could he get out of it? There was nothing left for him to do but leave. I found him at another forum and confronted him there as well. The scholar he used was not a muslim so he wasn't translating with bias. When he translated that verse he puts an exclamation mark. Apple Pie began to question me as to why I wanted to rely on that scholar and thought that I should show that scholars exegesis process. I found him, Apple Pie, to now be in a interesting position. This was originally one of his cited and quoted scholars and now, all of a sudden, this scholar disagrees with his interpretation so now this scholar is suspect. As you can see.....he is here no more. Maybe one day he will come back....sounding like a broken record...

Solomon was a sinner also and David and Israel (Jacob) and Abraham.

Interesting.

2 Samuel 12:7-8
12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

God gave david many wives from Saul.


Deut: 21:15
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

So far I don't see there being a problem if your god set it in motion.Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines (2Chro. 11:21). This line in Judah may have been the origin of the Talmudic limitation of the eighteen wives to the king. The father of the Prophet Samuel had two wives (1Sam. 1:2). The sons of Issachar are recorded as having many wives and sons (1Chro. 7:4). We also find it is far back as in Genesis Lamech had wives Gen. 4:23. It goes on and on. I can understand why some christians point out Muhammed having multiple wives. One reason is because that practice ended.....maybe by the christian church. And there is nothing wrong with that. The Quran allows up top four wives but says if you can't do justice by all of them then only have one.

Christianity provides me with a closer relationship with God and saves me from sin. Islam and Judaism are "faith of Abraham" religions and God says that can work for some people and Mohammed was one of those people but it never worked that well for me (RE: faith of Abraham within Christianity).

Noted. No problem here. It was just a question I had and you answered quite well. I may not agree with concepts and traditions but all is good.

Obviously that is your opinion but not mine.

No....! It's not an opinion. It's the truth. I know the Quran backward and forward and there are no verses that agree with the christian idea of Yeshua. The quran says explicitly, not "implicityly", that God has no partners, no wife, no "children"....It flat out warns against the people saying God is three and no where in the quran does it show that Yeshua is God. If you believe any of this is there then produce your sura and ayat (chapter and verse).

That has already happened. However on parting my Christian brothers did not disown me but weren't able to agree and that dissension made it difficult for us to work together. It is sort of a Paul and Barnabus thing. As far as I know I walk alone. I have never met anyone else with a similar belief. Even converts from Islam tend to disown the Qu'ran which I consider unnecessary and as far as I am concerned since Messianic Christians can worship like Jews why shouldn't an Islamic Christian be able to worship like a Muslim.

No problem with me. I think people should be able to worship in which ever fasion they choose.... It doesn't bother me.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'd like to take up a few points raised by joeboonda.
He asks if we have ever read Isaiah 53. Why just 53? Why not 52 13-15 where the chapter actually starts? Who is the servant referred to in the book of Isaiah? If you had bothered to read the previous chapters you'kll see that G-d is referring to the righteous remnant of Israel. Please do not quote bit of the bible out of context.
Also the so called 300m prophecies that you say Jesus fulfilled. You can only arrive at this through circular reasoning, i.e. these are about the Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah therefore it must be about Jesus. WRONG Most of these are not prphecies at all simply verses taken out of context or mistranslated or simply made up. If we look at the Messianic prophecies that are exhaustive and exclusive, e.g. world peace, the rebuilding of the temple, the ingathering of ALL the exiles, universal knowledge of G-d we see that Jesus did not fulfil a single one of these. Also, there is NO reference in the Hebrew scriptures to the Messiah having to return to fulfil the messianic prophecies.
At the end of the day there is the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian scriptures and they are diametrically opposed. As Jews we can only believe in one G-d who never has and never will have any human form.
Let's face it when the authors of the New Testament wrote their gospels it was a simple thing to create a story around a so called prophecy. It's so easy to to be wise after the event. To quote RG Price, Jesus is a veyy Jewish Myth. Mark wrote the first Gospel and Mattherw and Luke copied large chunks from Mark with additional sources of their own. How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?

First let me say welcome.......

I left frubals for you.....

It's nice to see some one here from the Jewish side.

I have a question. What kind of Messiah are the Jews waiting on?

 

[uss_bigd]

See this link...

The Great Differences of Christ and Man « Eliseo Soriano

 

[logician]

"How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?"

A point I've made many times, it seems the believers don't really care if the stories don't jive, strong evidence that a single text was used as a reference (Mark) and extrapolated on from their own perspective when they wrote their fictitious additions.

 

[Popeyesays]

Wiki:
The formal study of eyewitness memory is usually undertaken within the broader category of cognitive processes. Cognitive processes refer to all the different ways in which we make sense of the world around us. We do this by employing the mental skills at our disposal such as thinking, perception, memory, awareness, reasoning and judgment.
Although cognitive processes can only be inferred and cannot be seen directly, they all have very important practical implications within a legal context.
If one were to accept that the way we think, perceive, reason and judge is not always perfect, then it becomes easier to understand why cognitive processes and the factors influencing these processes are studied by psychologists in matters of law; not least because of the grave implications that this imperfection can have within the criminal justice system.

 

[Muffled]

"How can we believe the gospel writers when they cannot agree with easch other?"

A point I've made many times, it seems the believers don't really care if the stories don't jive, strong evidence that a single text was used as a reference (Mark) and extrapolated on from their own perspective when they wrote their fictitious additions.

On the contrary there is a massive amount of agreement in the four gospels. However it does not surprise me that God provided four gospels to provide us with different points of view.

 

[logician]

On the contrary there is a massive amount of agreement in the four gospels. However it does not surprise me that God provided four gospels to provide us with different points of view.

Considering that Matthew and Luke were essentially taken from Mark, the number of disagreements is extraordinary.

 

[Muffled]

Considering that Matthew and Luke were essentially taken from Mark, the number of disagreements is extraordinary.

There is no Biblical evidence suggesting that Matthew and Luke were taken from Mark and there is evidence to the contrary. I don't accept the concept of arguing that the books were taken from Mark because they have things in common. It is logical to me that different apostles would have common experiences since they were all with Jesus.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

There is no Biblical evidence suggesting that Matthew and Luke were taken from Mark and there is evidence to the contrary. I don't accept the concept of arguing that the books were taken from Mark because they have things in common. It is logical to me that different apostles would have common experiences since they were all with Jesus.

Well put, frubals!

 

[crystalonyx]

There is no Biblical evidence suggesting that Matthew and Luke were taken from Mark and there is evidence to the contrary. I don't accept the concept of arguing that the books were taken from Mark because they have things in common. It is logical to me that different apostles would have common experiences since they were all with Jesus.

It is generally accepted among all historical scholars that Luke and Matthew were simply rewrites of Mark, from these unknown authors personal bias.