Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that Jesus was without sin?
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Jesus is God?
- Thread starter Khale
- Start date
Do you believe that Jesus was without sin?
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Now what does this have to do with Yeshua, his followers and their god being one in purpose?
Is this going to be the classic christian move of asking questions like this? You want me to say yes so that you can then say....well, he must be God because God is the only one that is perfect and without sin......Been there and done that....!
John chapter 17 has nothing to do with Yeshua being God. He is simply praying to and begging his god. There is nothing there to suggest that was God praying to God.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
basis?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
The basis is right there in the whole of chapter 17. No interpretation needed really.
17:3 answers the question quite well (You are God, I am your blessed representative, You sent me).
Yeshua says as he was (with) his god before the world was created his god taught him. As he was being sent here he came not of his (own separate will) but the will of his god that sent him. He informs us that it was his god who ordered him what to say and gave him guidance and aid by blessing him whith the holy spirit. It was Yeshua who said that he only spoke those things which he saw with his god. He was the one who said that power was (given) to him in heaven. It was John (The Baptist) who said Yeshua comes speaking the word of God whom God (gave) the spirit without measure or limit. It was Martha who said to him that she knew that (whatever) he asked of God God would give to him.
If he was in heaven with his own separate will and had to be given power then there is no way he can be God. In order to be given there must be a giver. In order to be taught there must be a teacher. In order to be sent there must be a sender. For him to have been a servant there must be a master. These are things he said...not me. These are right there in your scripture.
The bible portrays him as the one asking, begging, pleading and praying to his god. His god was self sufficient, omipotent and omniscient. Yeshua was none of these things. When in the garden praying and begging for his life to be spared an angel appeared to him and strengthened him. When wanting food from the fig tree he was unaware the tree was not in season to bare fruit so he cursed it and it died. He expressed that he (the son) nor any of the angels are aware of the last day but this knowledge is reserved to his master/father (his god). This is all right there in your scripture. If what I said is not true then show me where it is wrong. Yeshua knew he wasn't God nor did he teach he was. He taught that he and his god were one in pupose but not one in the same. He told his followers that he prayed that they all (he, his god and the disciples) would be one in purpose. He always knew he was separate from God and never taught that they were the same.
John 14:22-24
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, "Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
23 Jesus replied, "All those who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and (we) will come to them and live with them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
24 Anyone who doesn't love me will not do what I say. And remember, my words are not my own. This message is from the Father who sent me.[/FONT]
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Now what does this have to do with Yeshua, his followers and their god being one in purpose?
Yeah, How did that work out for you? It seem to me that when someone confronts you with reason you back away and not answer the question. Great way to debate...The point here is quite simple, if Jesus was without sin then he must be God. The only thing biblically, that can be perfect is God. This is the white sheep the Israelites used to atone for there sins. The only thing that can atone for sin is the blood of the innocent, this being Jesus/God/Perfection. To say Jesus was not perfect is to defy the basic tenants of Judeaism and Christianity.
Once again you used Jesus's recognition of the God-head as evidence of Jesus not being God. Jesus is a subordinate of the Father, but shares the authority and God would not give all authority to someone who was just a man. Jesus had to be God to be given this lofty title.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
Thomas said in responding to Jesus:
John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."
John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Somehow, I think Thomas' real intent would best have been expressed as "Well, I'll be damned!" But he had better sense than to say that in the company which surrounded him.
Regards,
Scott
Interesting question, the unswear is yes , When a Christian worship Jesus/the son, he/she worship YHWH the father, these are the tenet of Christianity, as for know that there are a good many christians out their who believe that those who follow the jewish religion need to be saved because they do not worship Jesus the reason that they are not save is because they dont have a mediator, an attorney that can stand by their side, they want to present their work s and righteousness to obtain their entry to the kingdom, but they dont have none of that
Psa 2:10 And now be wise, O kings; be instructed, O judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled in but a little time. Blessed are all who put their trust in Him.
It isnt that they dont worship him, it that they believe that they will present themselves on the day of judgment on their own merits and works, instead of presenting Jesus righteousness, coming in His name not theirs.
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
Do cursing a fig tree, causing pigs to drown, and fighting with people in the temple count as sins?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Maybe we have a misunderstanding.
Here's my post in reply to you http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1128901-post263.html
That other stuff in the middle was not mine and I don't know where it came from. My position is Yeshua is not God nor did he claim to be nor did he teach his followers he was. John 17:3 gives us the information he wasn't but in all reality the whole of John 17 can not be attributed to Yeshua being God. He shows that he is the servant and bringer of the message that his god tasked him with doing. As he he prays to his god he asks god to make all of his followers one in purpose with him as he is one in purpose with his god so that they all may become one in purpose (doing God's will).
Your own reasoning above makes no sense.
Everyone keeps saying (Father this and Father that) when talking about Yeshua. You say it as though God is above and separate from God but oh yea...Jesus is god too.
The "Father" IS God. This is what Yeshua said. So if Yeshua was subordinate "TO" GOD then he, Yeshua, WAS NOT GOD....
John 8:54-55
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]54 Jesus answered, "If I am merely boasting about myself, it doesn't count. But it is my Father who says these glorious things about me. You say, `He is our God,'
55 but you do not even know him.[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] I know him[/FONT]. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But it is true--I know him and obey him.
[/FONT]
Subordinate
1.
placed in or belonging to a lower order or rank.
2.
of less importance; secondary.
3.
subject to or under the authority of a superior.
4.
subservient or inferior.
5.
subject; dependent.
God was subrdniate to himself?
God shares authority with God?
Yeshua was God because he gave himself authority?
If Yeshua was suborniante to then he was not the master (God).
If he has to (share) authority then there is some one besdies him with power.
In order to be given there must be a giver.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Sorry. Most theologians and scholars are rendering this verse with an exclamation mark at the end to show that this doubting Thomas was suprised to find his beloved friend and teacher (alive).
RSV Bible
John 20:28
"Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
Revised Standard Version of the Bible (R.S.V.) revised by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
Gee, prove your claim or interpretation of biblical information by biblical information.:slap:
Let us read John 20:24-30 and let us examine what happened before the meeting between Christ and Thomas.
John 20:24-25
"Now Thomas , one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
Thomas made a condition for believing " "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
John 20:26-27
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas,"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas made those conditions, and Jesus gave it to him. why would he be surprised for getting something he required? besides, Jesus said, "stop doubting and believe"
so, Thomas did just that and declared his statement of faith.
John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Again, Jesus said ""stop doubting and believe" thomas replied ""My Lord and my God!"
The context ofthe story clearly states, Thomas' statement as a declaration of faith. look at what Jesus said on verse 29-30
John 20:29-31
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
The statement underlined clearly means Jesus was acknowldeging Thomas' statement of faith.
therefore Jesus implicitly acknowledged he was in the status of a God. furthermore, the verse stated that ' But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."The son of God"
The lion has cubs, human has babys and humans cannot bear lion cubs can they?
God's begotten son, must be God as well.:bow:
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
Gee, prove your claim or interpretation of biblical information by biblical information.:slap:
Let us read John 20:24-30 and let us examine what happened before the meeting between Christ and Thomas.
John 20:24-25
"Now Thomas , one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
Thomas made a condition for believing " "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
John 20:26-27
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas,"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas made those conditions, and Jesus gave it to him. why would he be surprised for getting something he required? besides, Jesus said, "stop doubting and believe"
so, Thomas did just that and declared his statement of faith.
John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Again, Jesus said ""stop doubting and believe" thomas replied ""My Lord and my God!"
The context ofthe story clearly states, Thomas' statement as a declaration of faith. look at what Jesus said on verse 29-30
John 20:29-31
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
The statement underlined clearly means Jesus was acknowldeging Thomas' statement of faith.
"The son of God"
The lion has cubs, human has babys and humans cannot bear lion cubs can they?
God's begotten son, must be God as well.:bow:
BRAVO BRAVO !!!!:bible:
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Interesting.....So Yeshua is a lesser God now?
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
Do you mean lesser than the Father? Let us ask Jesus himself
John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.:bow:
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Well it's nice to see christians get together and make corrections to the scriptures. It was King James who didn't realize it was a statement of excitement but these scholars and theologians understood it quite well. They weren't the only ones
And to piggy back off what you said....Thomas was not with them and he was not prepared to believe that Yeshua was (alive) until he saw Yeshua and was able to touch him.
So when he "saw".....(key word) he was excited and made that exclamation, you know...like saying...(oh my god!). He just phrased a different way.
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
It had everything to do with him being alive and not dead. Thomas thought he was dead and did not believe the brothers when told him they saw him and he's alive
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Well, I know the scripture....just trying trying to get your understanding. But you just proved my point. Yeshua was not God because God was greater than him.
uss_bigd
Well-Known Member
tsk tsk tsk! you make things complicated when its all in the verse...:slap:
Let me give you another one ...
John 1:1
[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.:bow:
The word is Christ, the word that became flesh!
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
:sleep::sleep::sleep:
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
And look pretty good considering his wounds. He may have been hungry, but the Scriptures put him in remarkably good physical and spiritual condition. Jesus died because of the sheer beating he got and then they nail him to a cross. He died quickly, enough to surprise Pilot. Jesus died, any biblical attempt to prove other wise is silly.