Jesus is God?

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason
Yes, It was god's plan for Jesus to die and he did..

And what makes you so special that you know the mind of a supposed god?

And as we can see he can't combine the two in his mind believeing that they are one god because he says....God planned for Jesus to die....

It would appear that trinitarians are confused on trinity....:sarcastic

 

[Muffled]

So are we to assume all of God's prophets are God incarnate as well?

Read the book of Haggai...and one thing you will notice is Haggai brings the word of God and appears to speak as though it is God speaking...Can we conclude that Haagai is God incarnate?

There is no evidence that any of the prophets or Mohammed were anything but men inspired by God. As men they were sinners: Moses lacked faith in God and struck the rock to make water come out; Mohammed had multiple wives; Jeremiah was depressed; Elijah was afraid of his enemies.

There is no evidence that Haggai was God incarnate. This is how the word of God was spoken by Haggai:
Hag. 1:1 ¶ In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of Jehovah by Haggai...

However Jesus is the Word become flesh. What is the difference? There is hardly any difference as the Qu'ran states "all the messengers are equal." It doesn't matter who speaks the Word as long as it is the Word. The reason God became incarnate was not to provide another messenger (albeit there was a dearth of prophets in His time) but to die on the cross as a demonstration of how much He loves us. If He got a prophet to die on the cross there is no personal involvement on his part so there is no guarantee that He loves you. He could only do it Himself. No-one else can take the place of God.

 

[crystalonyx]

The idea of a god sacrificing himself was not new to Christianity, in fact, Christianity borrowed the story almost verbatim from earlier religions, just adding its own inflections. All these stories were NOT meant to be taken literally, but figuratively, unfortunately, Christianity literalized the tale to use as a cudgel to gain believers by promising the impossible - eternal life(if you believe), or eternal suffering(if you don't).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There is no evidence that any of the prophets or Mohammed were anything but men inspired by God.

And yet you still profess Yeshua to be more than that even though there is no evidence in the 4 gospels from Yeshua to confirm your assertions.

As men they were sinners: Mohammed had multiple wives

Look I have charged that you and christians like you don't know your own scripture. What's the point of making the statement of Muhammed having multiple wives??????

Wasn't it Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines (girlfriends - mistresses)???????......The wives Muhammed had couldn't even hold a candle to Solomon.....

1Kings 11:3
And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines:....

Look, I can quote Quran all day with the best of them....but since the Quran is totally against what you believe (trinity, Yeshua is God, crucifixion, God has a son) there is no need for you to throw Muhammed's name out there. Additionally, we should stick with the bible since the original question was asked by a christian.

Stick to your own scripture before you start throwing some one else's under the bus...and for the record....I'm not a muslim......

There is no evidence that Haggai was God incarnate. This is how the word of God was spoken by Haggai:
Hag. 1:1 ¶ In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of Jehovah by Haggai...

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It was the prophet John (The Baptist) that says the same thing about Yeshua and It was Yeshua who confirmed what John (The Baptist) said about him.

John 3:34 (From John - The Baptist)
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.


John 12:49 (Jesus)
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say.


John 17:4 and 17:14 (From Yeshua - His prayer to his god)
I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.

I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

The reason God became incarnate was not to provide another messenger (albeit there was a dearth of prophets in His time) but to die on the cross as a demonstration of how much He loves us.

You still haven't proven that God became a man. Crucifixion is a subject for another time but I do find it illogical to think that God committed an act of suicide for its creation. See, you have given your god human emotions.....You make it appear as though your god could not possibly understand its creation or love it, even though your god created love, but had to come and die for it in order to prove it. Interesting that the world is in worst shape today than it was 2000 years ago....So what did your god actually accomplish?

If He got a prophet to die on the cross there is no personal involvement on his part so there is no guarantee that He loves you. He could only do it Himself. No-one else can take the place of God.

This is so contradictory to scripture. You are responsible for your own actions....

Ezekiel 18:20-22
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]20 The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.[/FONT]


Be responsible for your own actions.....This blood sacrifice you speak of when it comes to Yeshua was not even needed. Again, crucifixion (fiction)....is a debate for a different thread.....

 

[Jeremy Mason]

And what makes you so special that you know the mind of a supposed god?

As I've stated before, no completely know all the nuances of God, however the Bible gives us an abundant amount of information about their character and purpose.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Saying "God IS {insert adjective here**" is always true and always insufficient. God is much more than we can describe. Jesus is more than we can describe, but we can get far closer to describing Jesus than we can God. You need to look up the definition of "Divine" 1 a: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b: being a deity <the divine Savior> c: directed to a deity <divine worship>2 a: supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b: heavenly, godlike &#8212; di·vine·ly adverb By the way, the "Divine Savior" is God, not Jesus. Jesus is an instrumentality of God. To be exact: Main Entry: in·stru·men·tal·i·ty Pronunciation: \&#716;in(t)-str&#601;-m&#601;n-&#712;ta-l&#601;-t&#275;, -&#716;men-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural in·stru·men·tal·i·ties Date: 1651 1 : the quality or state of being instrumental 2 : means, agency The Shema! is explicit and Jesus never disobeyed the Shema! Regards, Scott

It's funny you should give the definition of "Divine" and only use the definitions that apply to your position. Clearly, the definition you gave illustrates my position as well. (read the bold print) A deity is a god and they even capitalized Savior implying that the savior is God. The only thing that can atone for sin was the blood of a pure sacrifice. The only pure thing Biblically is God. Sorry Scott, you conclusion is unbiblical.

 

[Popeyesays]

It's funny you should give the definition of "Divine" and only use the definitions that apply to your position. Clearly, the definition you gave illustrates my position as well. (read the bold print) A deity is a god and they even capitalized Savior implying that the savior is God. The only thing that can atone for sin was the blood of a pure sacrifice. The only pure thing Biblically is God. Sorry Scott, you conclusion is unbiblical.

Being a diety is being God. Jesus never claimed to BE God. Obviously He knew best. He never spoke but as His Father instructed Him to speak. He never claimed to BE God. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

By the way God is the Divine Savior, Jesus is His instrumentality.

You can repeat yourself over and over and it will not convince anyone who didn't already have their minds made up.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

OK Scott, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Michel07]

Being a diety is being God. Jesus never claimed to BE God. Obviously He knew best. He never spoke but as His Father instructed Him to speak. He never claimed to BE God. Therefore, Jesus is not God.

By the way God is the Divine Savior, Jesus is His instrumentality.

You can repeat yourself over and over and it will not convince anyone who didn't already have their minds made up.

Regards,
Scott

John 14, 9 Jesus said to him, " Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say 'show us the Father'?

 

[Popeyesays]

John 14, 9 Jesus said to him, " Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say 'show us the Father'?

I agree, if you saw Jesus, you saw as close to God as is humanly possible for human perception.

Another way to put it: That by being in the presence of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus showed Philip God.

That still does not make Jesus God, of course.

I would suggest that those who saw Moses descend from the mountain with the Commandments also saw God, as close as they might be able given the limits of human perception.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Michel07]

I agree, if you saw Jesus, you saw as close to God as is humanly possible for human perception.

Another way to put it: That by being in the presence of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus showed Philip God.

That still does not make Jesus God, of course.

I would suggest that those who saw Moses descend from the mountain with the Commandments also saw God, as close as they might be able given the limits of human perception.

Regards,
Scott

I think that the difference though is that Moses never suggested that and Jesus outright said it.

 

[Popeyesays]

I think that the difference though is that Moses never suggested that and Jesus outright said it.

Jesus said no such thing. Him being a Rabbi and all it would shake Him to the core to pronounce a sacrilege like that. "Hear O Israel! The Lord is ONE! . . ."

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

"But supposing God became a man--suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person--then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Out attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."
--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

 

[Popeyesays]

"But supposing God became a man--suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person--then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Out attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."
--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

This is one of Lewis's best quotes. I can agree with it completely without believing that Jesus was literally God. Jesus was such a perfect servant of God, that He could bring the presence of God to mankind. It just seems to me that a living Jesus is far more important than a dying one.

I would like to recommend a book by Greg Iles called The Footprints of God. Now I hate the writing style (he keeps changing from 1st to 3rd person, and that is godawful clumsy writing). But it is a bit of a barn-burner suspense novel while making some intriguing comments on the nature of intelligence, personality, and just who Jesus was.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I agree, if you saw Jesus, you saw as close to God as is humanly possible for human perception.

Another way to put it: That by being in the presence of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus showed Philip God.

That still does not make Jesus God, of course.

I would suggest that those who saw Moses descend from the mountain with the Commandments also saw God, as close as they might be able given the limits of human perception.

Regards,
Scott

Additionally it would make sense for Yeshua to say what he said to Phillip because it was written that no man could see God and live......So Yeshua was a close "representation" of God.....And what is the root of that word??? (REPRESENT).....

Yeshua came to represent (to speak on one's behalf).....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

"But supposing God became a man--suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person--then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Out attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."
--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

This is Lewis' speculation on this. And let's face it..That is what this is. He starts out by saying "Supposing God became a man"....
If God is the sole creator, omnipotent, omniscient (it) then it stands to reason it knows what love, pain etc. is. It stands to reason that he knew whatever his creation was going to do eons before he created it. There is no reason that he had to come to subject himself to what he created and to commit suicide for its creation in order to forgive it. Yeshua's words and actions contradict the attributes of deity that some have assigned him. Everyone is responsible for their own actions

Ezekiel 18:20-22
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]20 The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.[/FONT]

imo......

 

[Michel07]

This is Lewis' speculation on this. And let's face it..That is what this is. He starts out by saying "Supposing God became a man"....
If God is the sole creator, omnipotent, omniscient (it) then it stands to reason it knows what love, pain etc. is. It stands to reason that he knew whatever his creation was going to do eons before he created it. There is no reason that he had to come to subject himself to what he created and to commit suicide for its creation in order to forgive it. Yeshua's words and actions contradict the attributes of deity that some have assigned him. Everyone is responsible for their own actions

imo......

Long ago there was a man named Moses the Black. He was a huge Ethiopian servant of an Egyptian who had to let him go because of the crimes he had such a propensity to commit. He became the leader of a band of bandits and pretty successful at that. But life for him took a change when he met some hermit desert monks. Over some years he became ordained a priest and head of the monastery. One day a group of Berber bandits broke into the monastery. Moses the Black refused to defend himself and was killed. He used to be a bandit and knew what they were capable of; does that mean he committed suicide? I don't think so. He died in A.D. 405 and is St. Moses the Black.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Long ago there was a man named Moses the Black. He was a huge Ethiopian servant of an Egyptian who had to let him go because of the crimes he had such a propensity to commit. He became the leader of a band of bandits and pretty successful at that. But life for him took a change when he met some hermit desert monks. Over some years he became ordained a priest and head of the monastery. One day a group of Berber bandits broke into the monastery. Moses the Black refused to defend himself and was killed. He used to be a bandit and knew what they were capable of; does that mean he committed suicide? I don't think so. He died in A.D. 405 and is St. Moses the Black.

There is a difference in the traditional christian story of God coming to die for the sins of its creation vs. a man who either cowered or did not want to fight the resistance.

"God" coming to die for the sins of its creation can not be verified by the scripture. Yeshua, from the beginning, does not want to die let alone ever claim he was God.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

We clearly see that he was separate from his god while in heaven and it was not Yeshua's will to come but that of his god's. We've already read that it was his god that taught him and gave him the instructions as to what he was to say. In order to be taught there must be a teacher. I order to be sent there must be a sender. In order to be given there must be a giver.

Now we can move on from that because we can clearly see that God sent Yeshua. God did not come. Yeshua CLEARLY says God SENT HIM.....Now let's continue to see if Yeshua "wanted" to die for humanity.....

Luke 22:36, 38
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] "But now," he said, "take your money and a traveler's bag. And if you don't have a sword, sell your clothes and buy one![/FONT]
"Lord," they replied, "we have two swords among us." "That's enough," he said.

Now, why would the all powerful "God" need or want his followers to buy swords if he was here to die for his creation? We start to get a sense that he was not God nor was he a willing sacrifice.....but we continue....

As we continue we find Yeshua has taken his followers to The Mt. Of Olives and told them to stay awake and keep watch. Watch out for what? He was not interested in going peacefully. Continuously in the garden he cries out to his god asking his god to spare him from death. This is not the actions of a willing sacrifice let alone the actions of God. When they finally laid hands on him to take him one of then struck the solider with his sword. Here is where we see Yeshua gave up the fight to go peacefully and told his follower to put his sword away. Nothing like being out numbered to make some one surrender.

Now they've taken him into custody. He's on trial for his life. When he's alleged to be on the cross he cries out to his god saying;

Mark 15:34
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] Then, at that time Jesus called out with a loud voice, "[Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?]" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[/FONT]

At what point are we to assume that this is God on the cross when we see this man calling out for his god asking his god why did his god abandon him? How can God leave God on the cross?

There is no reason why we should be thinking this is God on the cross dieing for the sins of its creation when Yeshua reveals up to this point he's not God and God has left him. Even if we are to entertain the thought that this is God...as Yeshua exclaims...and believes....God (has left) him...so if he did die... God was not on the cross. As the bible teaches, man is responsible for his or her own actions and this blood sacrifice is not needed.

Ezekiel 18:20-22
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]20 The one who sins is the one who dies. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own goodness, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my laws and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.[/FONT]

 

[Michel07]

Then, at that time Jesus called out with a loud voice, "[Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?]" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"At what point are we to assume that this is God on the cross when we see this man calling out for his god asking his god why did his god abandon him? How can God leave God on the cross?


You forgot the most important part.

" Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." John 2, 19

The Ressurection.


p.s. if you knew the story of Moses the Black you would not suggest the word coward.

 

[Popeyesays]

Then, at that time Jesus called out with a loud voice, "[Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?]" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"At what point are we to assume that this is God on the cross when we see this man calling out for his god asking his god why did his god abandon him? How can God leave God on the cross?


You forgot the most important part.

" Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." John 2, 19

The Ressurection.


p.s. if you knew the story of Moses the Black you would not suggest the word coward.

The Temple of Man cannot be destroyed. It will always be raised up again. It's the will of God at work.

Regards,
Scott