Jesus is God?

[Popeyesays]

The problem you have is you can't see God as three separate persons. The Father never gave up his power, Jesus didn't either, but recognized that he was a subordinate of the Father. Jesus also humbled himself when he was a man to set an example for his followers. His power was obvious when he preformed all the miracles.

You are right when you say the Father and Jesus are not the same because they are separate individuals. One has a higher position that being the Father/giver/ sender. And remember that God the Father , Son and Holy Spirit and their logic and way of thinking are vastly different than humans. I don't think anyone can fully explain all the nuances of their being, but love is definitely the focal point of their essence.

It is not that one cannot see God as "three separate persons", it is that to see God in that way makes no rational sense. Add to that fact, that such a view point is entirely contrary to scripture and no sense can be made of it at all.

As to miracles if Jesus turned water ionto wine ONLY because He was God, then how did Moses pull off parting the waters for the escape of the Hebrews from Pharoah's pursuit? How does one explain Muhammed's Journey of a Single Night?

One cannot base belief on "miracles" by second-hand.

One can accept the nature of Jesus or Moses or Krshna, or any of the Great Prophets as divine without making Those Holy Souls anything other than humans--specially blessed and chosen humans, but humans nonetheless.

God is "Love", He is also "Justice", "Sovereignty", "Mystery", "Self-Subsistent", etc., etc..

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

It is not that one cannot see God as "three separate persons", it is that to see God in that way makes no rational sense. Add to that fact, that such a view point is entirely contrary to scripture and no sense can be made of it at all.

As to miracles if Jesus turned water ionto wine ONLY because He was God, then how did Moses pull off parting the waters for the escape of the Hebrews from Pharoah's pursuit? How does one explain Muhammed's Journey of a Single Night?

One cannot base belief on "miracles" by second-hand.

One can accept the nature of Jesus or Moses or Krshna, or any of the Great Prophets as divine without making Those Holy Souls anything other than humans--specially blessed and chosen humans, but humans nonetheless.

God is "Love", He is also "Justice", "Sovereignty", "Mystery", "Self-Subsistent", etc., etc..

Regards,
Scott

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?

Biblically other prophets did perform miracles, but those prophets weren't given the authority of Jesus nor did they have his knowledge ie. Jesus knew that the Sumaritian lady at the well had five husbands and the one she was with was not her husband. There also was the prophetic evidence that differentiated all the prophets from Jesus.

 

[Popeyesays]

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?

No, I do not. Look at it this way:
If the sun is like God, then the rays of the sun are not the sun.

We swim in a sea of the Holy Spirit, they are emanations from God, but not God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

OK it clearly states that Haggai was a prophet and that the word of the LORD came through the prophet. So to answer your question, no, prophets are not God but God's messengers.

Then this would apply to Yeshua as well. It was God who gave Yeshua instructions and commanded him what he should say. Yeshua spoke the words of God. Not only does Yeshua say this explicitly it echoes what the prophet John (The Baptist) said.

John 3:34 (From John - The Baptist)
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.


John 12:49 (Jesus)
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say.


John 17:4 and 17:14 (From Yeshua - His prayer to his god)
I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.

I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

So as we can see....Yeshua is clearly saying his god sent him with a specific task that needed to be completed. When this task was completed he, Yeshua in his prayer to his god, informs his God....(Thy will is done)..... He had delivered the "word" that was given to him......

This would surely make him a messenger and we knew he was a prophet by his very nature in the things he said. Yeshua himself said he was a prophet and when the people didn't believe he was he left and moved on.

John 13:57-58
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him. Then Jesus told them, "A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family."

And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.
[/FONT]
Again, as we can see he knew exactly what he was...and God was not it. He knew he wasn't God because in his prayer he showed he wasn't.....Where, in his prayer to his god, he says...You are the one true god, I am the messiah...You sent me....Are you saying that his prayer to his god in the book of John chapter 17 should be regarded as mere ramblings of a madman?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Then this would apply to Yeshua as well. It was God who gave Yeshua instructions and commanded him what he should say. Yeshua spoke the words of God. Not only does Yeshua say this explicitly it echoes what the prophet John (The Baptist) said.

John 3:34 (From John - The Baptist)
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.


John 12:49 (Jesus)
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say.


John 17:4 and 17:14 (From Yeshua - His prayer to his god)
I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.

I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

So as we can see....Yeshua is clearly saying his god sent him with a specific task that needed to be completed. When this task was completed he, Yeshua in his prayer to his god, informs his God....(Thy will is done)..... He had delivered the "word" that was given to him......

This would surely make him a messenger and we knew he was a prophet by his very nature in the things he said. Yeshua himself said he was a prophet and when the people didn't believe he was he left and moved on.

John 13:57-58
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him. Then Jesus told them, "A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family."

And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.
[/FONT]
Again, as we can see he knew exactly what he was...and God was not it. He knew he wasn't God because in his prayer he showed he wasn't.....Where, in his prayer to his god, he says...You are the one true god, I am the messiah...You sent me....Are you saying that his prayer to his god in the book of John chapter 17 should be regarded as mere ramblings of a madman?

If Jesus was just a man/ messiah then how could he have existed before Abraham?

 

[Popeyesays]

If Jesus was just a man/ messiah then how could he have existed before Abraham?

The "Word" gave flesh to everything that is all at once. The "Word" is returned to us from time to time in the form of the Temple of Man from age to age. Abraham and Jesus are two different men, but the creative word is expressed by both--They are in another sense the same Expression.

So, too, were Moses, Zoroaster, Krshna, Buddha, Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah. And in the fullness of God's will iut will return again sometime in the future.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

The "Word" gave flesh to everything that is all at once. The "Word" is returned to us from time to time in the form of the Temple of Man from age to age. Abraham and Jesus are two different men, but the creative word is expressed by both--They are in another sense the same Expression.

So, too, were Moses, Zoroaster, Krshna, Buddha, Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah. And in the fullness of God's will iut will return again sometime in the future.

Regards,
Scott

You said this earlier in this thread, but thank you anyway. I'd like to see what Dirty Peguin has to say about this as well. I don't subscribe to Jesus being equal to any of the prophets Scott has listed above because it's only Jesus's blood that can atone for the sins of the world because he was the only man to live without sin. That's why the Israelites had to have a year old lamb without defect in order to symbolize Jesus's purity.

 

[Popeyesays]

You said this earlier in this thread, but thank you anyway. I'd like to see what Dirty Peguin has to say about this as well. I don't subscribe to Jesus being equal to any of the prophets Scott has listed above because it's only Jesus's blood that can atone for the sins of the world because he was the only man to live without sin. That's why the Israelites had to have a year old lamb without defect in order to symbolize Jesus's purity.

And a lamb is sufficent, how exactly? And if a lamb IS sufficient for what is Jesus needed?

How is Muhammed's revelation NOT based on whatever Jesus revealed and taught?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The problem you have is you can't see God as three separate persons.

Yea... because this is not something that was ever taught by any of the prophets.

The Father never gave up his power, Jesus didn't either,

Then your view is contradictory to what trinitarians have been saying for years.

Jesus Sacrifice for You

Jesus' authority was limited and GOD-given. (Popular debater and apologist)

I could scout around for more but there are plenty who hold that Yeshua gave up his power.....yada...yada.....

but recognized that he was a subordinate of the Father.

Words do say a lot and I do pay attention to what people say. What do you mean...."subordinate OF the Father"????

Don't you, as most trinitarians say, mean "Subordinate TO the father"?????

Now look at it...Subordinate To......In order for someone to subordinate to something..that "something" must be above that which is subordinate...in power, authority, position, stature, status...etc...

Subordinate
1.placed in or belonging to a lower order or rank.
2.of less importance; secondary.
3.subject to or under the authority of a superior.
4.subservient or inferior.
5.subject; dependent.

Jesus also humbled himself when he was a man to set an example for his followers.

I think I can agree with that.

His power was obvious when he preformed all the miracles.

Please.!!!!!

Miracles aren't a proof of deity. Prophets before Yeshua performed miracles. Were they deities? It was Yeshua himself who said others after him, the false ones, would be able to perform miracles....

Matthew 24:24
For there will come up false Christs, and false prophets, who will do great signs and wonders; so that if possible even the elect might be tricked.

You are right when you say the Father and Jesus are not the same because they are separate individuals. One has a higher position that being the Father/giver/ sender.

Great....SO we do agree that Yeshua is not God...right??

And remember that God the Father , Son and Holy Spirit and their logic and way of thinking are vastly different than humans. I don't think anyone can fully explain all the nuances of their being, but love is definitely the focal point of their essence.

hmmm.....Then trinitarians should not be preaching their equations as to the substance of God (1+1+1=1) to anyone if the nuances can not be fully explained..... even though the scripture disagrees with their claims.....

 

[Jeremy Mason]

And a lamb is sufficent, how exactly? And if a lamb IS sufficient for what is Jesus needed?

How is Muhammed's revelation NOT based on whatever Jesus revealed and taught?

Regards,
Scott

It wasn't the blood of bulls or lambs that God truly wanted. The blood of the lamb symbolized what Jesus did on the cross. The God of the Bible says that only purity can wash away or atone for sin which is why Jesus had to die so that the sins of the world could be wiped away.

Muhammed never acknowledge Jesus's atonement.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If Jesus was just a man/ messiah then how could he have existed before Abraham?

Be careful. You're not accurately quoting me. Where in that post did I say Yeshua was "just a man/messiah"?????

 

[Popeyesays]

It wasn't the blood of bulls or lambs that God truly wanted. The blood of the lamb symbolized what Jesus did on the cross. The God of the Bible says that only purity can wash away or atone for sin which is why Jesus had to die so that the sins of the world could be wiped away.

Muhammed never acknowledge Jesus's atonement.

That's a firm opinion. Your supposition is that God would have Him die? But it was men who did the deed, and those men had the option NOT to do so. If Jesus had not died on the cross but been upraised by the people of Palestine as the Messiah, would that not have served to provide atonement? Would it have made Jesus LESS sinless?

Muhammed was the Temple of Man in His turn, and He upheld Jesus as an Apostle of God no less than Himself. Jesus was the Temple of Man in His turn and He upheld Moses as no less than Himself.

Regards,
Sott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Be careful. You're not accurately quoting me. Where in that post did I say Yeshua was "just a man/messiah"?????

Sorry I was not quoting you, however, you seem to be implying that Jesus was not God. If I'm mistaking my apologies.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

That's a firm opinion. Your supposition is that God would have Him die? But it was men who did the deed, and those men had the option NOT to do so. If Jesus had not died on the cross but been upraised by the people of Palestine as the Messiah, would that not have served to provide atonement? Would it have made Jesus LESS sinless?

Muhammed was the Temple of Man in His turn, and He upheld Jesus as an Apostle of God no less than Himself. Jesus was the Temple of Man in His turn and He upheld Moses as no less than Himself.

Regards,
Sott

Yes, It was god's plan for Jesus to die and he did. Yes, people had the option and God knew that they would kill him well before they did, therefore providing the atonement. It would not have made Jesus less sinless how would it have?

As far as Muhammed I completely disagree. I believe he was an imposter(sp?).

 

[Popeyesays]

Sorry I was not quoting you, however, you seem to be implying that Jesus was not God. If I'm mistaking my apologies.

Actually Penguin has maintrained that Jesus' nature is divine, but that Jesus' nature is not to be God.

I agree.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sorry I was not quoting you, however, you seem to be implying that Jesus was not God. If I'm mistaking my apologies.

As Popeyesays...I maintain he was not God...

Yeshua's own statements prove that. There is NO implicit or explicit statement you can bring me out of the four gospels to show Yeshua was God. This is not something he taught his followers nor did they believe he was such. Martha, regarding Lazarus, said to him..."I know that whatever you ask of God HE will give it to YOU"....Do we pass her statement off as....(OH...Poor mis informed Martha...Poor Martha...she misunderstood who God was).....???? NO! She knew exactly who Yeshua was. There was no need for him to correct her in saying...."NO...I am the lord your god".....

We have (EXPLICIT) statements in those scripture to show he was not God. Whenever a man tells you he has been sent you must believe there must be a sender. Whenever a man tells you he was given you must believe there must be a giver. Most christians I have come across have passed these types of statements off.

If I showed up at your door and told you I was sent to sell you something...you wouldn't assume I am the same person that sent me. How illogical is that kind of reasoning? You would rightfully ask...."Who sent you?.....Who do you work for?"......

These are the same kinds of questions the jews posed to Yeshua. If I sat in front of you with a briefcase full of money and said to you..."This money was given to me by my father"....You would not come to the illogical conclusion that I am my father nor would you assume I gave it to myself......You would ask..."Who is your father?"......"Who gave that money to you?".....This is the situation with the jews to Yeshua. They, for the most part, did not take him as God. When there was a time when some did....Yeshua cleared it up informing them of their misconceptions he wasn't God.

Yeshua even leaves information that even before coming here he, while in heaven, had his own will and he existed separate from God. It's all right there in those scriptures. Nowhere in those books does Yeshua say he is God. Nowhere in any of the four gospels does he teach he is God.

As I have said....John 17:3 is one of the clearest statements declaring his position. In his prayer to his god he says "YOU are the true god, I am the messiah (blessed one who speaks for you, on your behalf), whom YOU have sent".....

If anyone takes from that statement or even the rest of John 17 that he, Yeshua, is God then they don't understand the scripture they purport to know.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So Scott is right and you believe that Jesus was divine? But not God. ok.

Yes Jesus behaved in a way that all men and women should behave towards the Father with humility and respect. Just because Jesus calls the Father "my God" doesn't eliminate him form the equation of God and I can find no satisfying Scripture to validate the notion either. I see where you are coming from... I do.

Divine is perfection and perfection is God.

 

[Popeyesays]

So Scott is right and you believe that Jesus was divine? But not God. ok.

Yes Jesus behaved in a way that all men and women should behave towards the Father with humility and respect. Just because Jesus calls the Father "my God" doesn't eliminate him form the equation of God and I can find no satisfying Scripture to validate the notion either. I see where you are coming from... I do.

Divine is perfection and perfection is God.

Saying "God IS {insert adjective here**" is always true and always insufficient. God is much more than we can describe. Jesus is more than we can describe, but we can get far closer to describing Jesus than we can God.

You need to look up the definition of "Divine"
1 a: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b: being a deity <the divine Savior> c: directed to a deity <divine worship>2 a: supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b: heavenly, godlike
— di·vine·ly adverb

By the way, the "Divine Savior" is God, not Jesus. Jesus is an instrumentality of God.

To be exact:
Main Entry: in·stru·men·tal·i·ty Pronunciation: \&#716;in(t)-str&#601;-m&#601;n-&#712;ta-l&#601;-t&#275;, -&#716;men-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural in·stru·men·tal·i·ties Date: 1651 1 : the quality or state of being instrumental 2 : means, agency

The Shema! is explicit and Jesus never disobeyed the Shema!

Regards,
Scott

 

[crystalonyx]

Yes, It was god's plan for Jesus to die and he did..

And what makes you so special that you know the mind of a supposed god?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You need to look up the definition of "Divine"
1 a: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b: being a deity <the divine Savior> c: directed to a deity <divine worship>2 a: supremely good : superb <the pie was divine> b: heavenly, godlike
&#8212; di·vine·ly adverb

I gave the same kind of information when I posted the definition for the word divinity. We can see that Yeshua, as described in the bible, has divinity but it was all granted/given to him by his god. As we can see, from the definition you provided, one of the meanings of the word is "Supremely Good".....That is key because it was Yeshua who said..."Why do you call me good? There is none good except God"...

If he was truly "God" then there would be no need for him to separate himself from his god. It would not make sense that God would tell the man not to call him good if, as most believe, Yeshua was (perfect, sinless, fully God)...If their definition is to be taken seriously then it stands to reason that Yeshua is God....but for Yeshua to focus ON his god reveals a lot. It stands as one of the best statements given by him that he is not God in conjuction with his declaration in John 17:3...regardless of what people say. It also makes one wonder why people keep on insisting he is God...sense we have those verses saying..."[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Then a cloud came over them, and a voice from the cloud said, This is my beloved Son. Listen to him".......or the case in Mark 1:9-12.

At that point Yeshua, who is supposed to be God as trinitarians believe, was in the midst of them when God spoke from the heavens. If God was truly on earth with them, in the person of Yeshua, then the voice from heaven would not be needed.

Yeshua is not God because the scriptures show that he isn't.


[/FONT]Look, this is not the language (style) that God has displayed throughout the bible. In the OT God states his case and informs (ALL) of his creation that he is God and there is no other. This was not the style of Yeshua. He comes on the scene confirming that his god is the one true god and he, Yeshua, is the servant whom God has sent speaking on God's behalf giving the people the "word" of God which God has instruced Yeshua to say.