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Featured Jesus is all that really matters

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by 74x12, Jul 28, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes demons help people and what not. I have no doubt they honor their own. But, that doesn't mean they ultimately have people's best interests in mind. The fact is they need people. They need people to give them permission to do what they wanted to do in the first place.

    I believe it's obvious that God put protections over the human race so that they would not be overrun or "plagued" (your words) with demons. But when people willingly pray or sacrifice to demons or willingly open portals or willingly summon demons. Then that's the permission they need. That's access. Hopefully that explains to you one reason why they help people.

    If I was so afraid of the devil then I would not talk about him. And I wouldn't even try it if I didn't know Jesus was with me. I know what I say can seem scary. But I believe in a bigger God. Bigger than anyone or anything.

    I'm just pointing out what happened when I prayed for you. I felt a curse was broken. By the God you claim has no power. I will keep you in prayers for now.
     
  2. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    But, I feel that way about "heavenly" agents as well. For all we know they just need to win over your soul to power heaven and keep the VR program running. (Sorry, something I saw on the show Supernatural.) :D Everyone and everything presumably acts out of their own interests, so what are theirs? Hard to say...

    Or, it's hand wash hand... You help them they help you. You both get what you need. It still sort of bothers me that NOTHING is mentioned about the supposed good guys about what they need. Why is it important for you not to sin or do anything else in violation of the bible? What do they get... Everyone wants something... for eternal life past the pearly gates with St. Pete what is the cost? :D Perhaps the demons are easier to understand... Since they just ask you for what they want...

    Not big enough to just make all this a non-issue. I mean, you'd think a creator would just make you incapable of screwing up in the way that bothers them. Like a bug fix for a computer software... :D

    I don't feel any animosity toward Jehovah and his team mind you... I just don't feel like we line up... Also, I mentioned earlier the whole "why do they care what I do" doesn't make sense. God and angels want something and that something serves their needs.... So what is that something? They absolutely need it, it's not something as simple as "God loves you"... etc... There is a basic need, and that question is never asked.

    But, pray away... I don't know anyone who can't use good vibes regardless of where they come from. :D
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Why is Jesus better than God?

    Why deal with staff when you can go straight to management?
     
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  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is God manifest. God made it so that when Jesus was revealed in the world that whoever wants to be saved would call on the name of Jesus. The glory all goes to the Father. If Jesus was not God manifest in the flesh then it would not be so.
    Got to get on that Acts 2:38 train. That's pretty much how it all starts. The baptism of the holy Spirit is very real. That's the power of God.
     
  5. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    picture this.....you can.....

    you let go of your last breath and heaven comes to see what stands from the dust

    you mention His Name

    they take you there.....and He says....
    WHAT'S THIS....!!!!!?????

    and the angels that brought will excuse themselves....
    he mentioned your Name as if it belonged to him
    we thought he was one of yours

    and you shall have your day of reckoning with your Lord
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Except that Jesus never once claimed to be God, and made it perfectly clear he wasn't God, but simply God's agent or envoy eg
    And Paul and others agreed eg
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure where you're going with this. Only God knows those who are His own (1 John 3:1-6) and that will revealed in the end.
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You claim you know Jesus is not God because of scriptures you've read?

    But Jesus Himself said "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." (Matthew 11:27)

    So how do you claim to know the Son or the Father unless Jesus Himself has shown you? Has Jesus shown you that He is not God?
     
  9. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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  10. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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  11. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If you read the biblical references I listed, you'll see that their authors have attributed words to Jesus which are a repeated bald denial that Jesus is God. Such as:

    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

    and the others I mentioned, and doubtless more. Paul said, the Father is God and the Son is Lord ─ the powerful agent.

    And going the other way, the words 'I am God' are nowhere attributed to Jesus.

    It's no concern of mine if people want to think Jesus is god, or part of a triune god. It's when they say the bible agrees with either of those statements that I think it's fair to draw the line.
    Indeed, as 1Timothy 2:5 puts it, For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (The idea that a mediator's required is essentially gnostic, as you'll recognize. I'm not aware of any such idea in the Jewish religion.)
    It's not sufficient to take his word for it, you say?
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I know it seems that way to you and I'm not knocking you for your views. I know everything seems so obvious to you.

    The truth is, I've already debated this topic on this forum more than once. But I can't convince anyone by myself. I keep telling people that unless Jesus shows you; then you won't know who He is or the Father either. It's not as simple as just reading the Bible and putting together a lot of different verses to come to the conclusion. No, it has to be a spiritual revelation. A revelation from God. The Bible can be involved but God would give the understanding of who He truly is and who Jesus really is.

    Jesus said to the Bible scribes of His own time; Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and they are they which testify of me.

    In other words Jesus is eternal life and they were missing everything the scriptures had to say about Him. So people can definitely miss what the scriptures are truly saying about Jesus and even about God.

    There are mediators in the Jewish religion. Moses is a prime example (he mediated a covenant between God and man.) and every other prophet is also a "mediator" in a way. As well as the priests like Aaron.

    Do you know how Jesus is our mediator? The very next verse tells you. He gave Himself as a ransom for us. (1 Timothy 2:6) By offering the atonement for our sins. By interceding on our behalf as the Priest of the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrew 7:17, Romans 8:34)

    However there is more to it than that; Jesus is not just the High Priest but the sacrifice also. So if Jesus can be both the Priest offering the sacrifice and the sacrifice itself; then it should be no surprise that He can be the God receiving the sacrifice.
    It's sufficient to both hear and understand. You need both. (Matthew 13:19-23)
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The words are there. Nothing more is required than to read them. What is the reader, contemplating eg John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”, supposed to conclude the author meant? It has Jesus saying that (a) there is one true God, and (b) Jesus is not that true God, but someone else ─ doesn't it?

    That doesn't show anything but what the author said. It doesn't establish that an historical Jesus existed, or that if he did, he was really an agent of the Jewish god.

    BUT in reasoned and dispassionate debate the words of Jesus in the NT can't be called in aid to support doctrines suggesting Jesus is God or Jesus is part of a Trinity, and can be called in aid as showing the contrary.
    Regardless of what the bible says? If so, if all you're saying is that one may believe as one thinks best, we agree: yes one may.
    Where does it say he said that?
    I can see how that could be argued. But the NT has Jesus saying he's a mediator of a different caliber ─ that no other being can be a mediator, only Jesus.
     
  15. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    Lord is the same God as God. Not a different God. Not a man, non deific.

    The verses you presented if read literally, contradict Jesus's own statements about His religion. If Jesus were a man, then it would contradict John 1:18, as Jesus says He knows the Father.

    So it can't be both.
    Someone is lying, the text authors are practicing a different religion, or, the interpretation is wrong..

    It's one of those.

    Choose.
     
  16. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    Jesus, the quintessential Jew. The quintessence of Jewishness.

    The quintessence of the idea of being a Jew.


    Who better to represent the religion.
    Your wording makes no sense, to how the Deific names are used, in the text.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus also says he worships the Father. Do Gods worship themselves?

    What does Paul mean when he says the Father is God and Jesus is Lord? Why that usage, which clearly distinguishes God from Jesus?

    And why, in particular, and again, does Jesus never say, I am God?
    So what? He says he was in heaven before he arrived on earth, and according to Luke and Matthew he had to do that by being born here, so it seems fair to imply that the stories attribute some non-human status to him in heaven, an überangel perhaps.
    As I said, I don't see why it can't be both, if he had to be born to get here.

    But if you're right then EITHER the attribution to Jesus in direct speech of at least sixteen statements denying that he's God or irreconcilable with any claim that he's God, is THE BIG LIE or else all the arguments that he IS god, although he constantly denies it, is the lie.
    Why are you so desperate to turn Jesus into a God anyway? Why this need to call Jesus a sixteen-fold liar when he says he isn't God? You already have a perfectly serviceable god in Yahweh. You know the Trinity doctrine is incoherent. What's the problem?
     
  18. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Master of the Magicians

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    The Bible also calls Jesus God. So I guess they do.

    A verse would help here.
    This is interesting stuff, I would rather deal with this subject in context specific.

    Right. The fact is, isn't in Spirit form, the 'God'? I'm not disagreeing there. Now, the human Jesus, how much Deity, and how much human....the human form Jesus, says He is one with Father, yet in Heaven, Jesus isn't the same being. I believe this idea is the key to understanding why we have these contradicting verses.

    I'm not. I don't even worship Jesus. Never did.
    The problem is that Jesus is called a God, in the text. Doesn't matter what my opinion is, on that. So either the text is wrong, or it means something that you aren't grasping.

    Also, I don't believe that the word title God, has to be regulated to just Yahweh, or something. That isn't how the word God is used, outside of certain religious belief.



    Anyway, that aside, I don't worship Jesus, and the NT is wisdom text, for me.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    He has already come. Dispensationalism is evangelical BS.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    “The” Church. There’s only one body of Christ — according to the Bible ... and Tradition.
     
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