samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Nor mine. Well said, Muffled.
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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
Nor mine. Well said, Muffled.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Tb, I have explained over and over again that you are disregarding context, grasping at individual verses, and then convincing yourself (and attempting to convince others) that these verses mean what YOU want them to mean. It is a very shallow and naive way of trying to extract meaning from Scripture. So here are just 2 sites where you can find out about context for yourself.But Jesus never promised to return. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus say He is going to return to earth.
Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4)
In future, if we continue to exchange posts, I will provide the views I have presented in the past that are held by other Christians. You will, hopefully, begin to get your mind away from individual verses and get some idea of the whole picture. At the moment, you remind me of the ‘Bible Belt’ fundamentalists, and that is not a compliment!
What Does John 14:19 Mean?
and, from
What does John 14:19 mean?
the following:
"The world," in these contexts, means the unbelieving and fallen human condition. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come (John 14:16), but noted that unbelievers would neither see nor know Him (John 14:17). Here again He notes that this is the end of His earthly presence, in a form visible even to those who do not believe (John 12:44–46). The disciples, on the other hand, will see Jesus again, and soon (John 16:16; 20:19).
John14:15–31 contains a prediction about the Holy Spirit. Jesus refers to this as the Spirit of Truth, and promises that the Spirit will arrive to help the disciples carry on after Jesus is ascended to heaven. Throughout this section, a person's love for Christ, their obedience to His teachings, and the indwelling of the Spirit are intertwined. As in prior statements, Jesus is focused on comfort and encouragement. He will continue to highlight the need to maintain faith, based on all He has said and done so far. Later, after advance warnings about what Christians will face, Jesus will return to describing the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant
Yes, all that matters is what is true, and it is not true that the Holy Spirit is the B.man. Or maybe you can wrestle the words “The Holy Spirit’s name is Baha'u'llah” from Scripture? No, I don’t think that even you could do this… LOL!It does not matter what I like, all that matters is what is true and what is actually in the Bible. Jesus never planned or promised to return to earth in the same body. He promised that the Father would give us another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit, and that was Baha'u'llah.
AMEN!John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
AMEN!John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
AMEN!John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not want them to mean anything because I do not need them to mean anything, because i know the truth about what God has done since the Bible was written, so nothing in the Bible will ever change that...
It just so happens that what is in the Bible confirms everything I believe and that is one way I know that the Bible is fairly accurate.
And now that this little bit of bookkeeping is out of the way.......
I know the context because I can read as well as anyone else, so please don't pull that on me again.
Anyone can interpret the Bible however they want to, and they have. Notably, all Christians do not interpret any verses from the Bible in the same way, which demonstrates that the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.
These are Christian interpretations and obviously they will differ from Baha'i interpretations. From my perspective they are incorrect, not only wrong but they represent a futile attempt for Christians to keep believing that Jesus is going to return to the world.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
"The world," in these contexts, means the unbelieving and fallen human condition."
Let's plug that into the verse and see how much sense it makes.:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the the unbelieving and fallen human condition, but these are in the the unbelieving and fallen human condition, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
When was Jesus ever in the unbelieving and fallen human condition?
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The context is as follows:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus is not coming back to this world, period. There is not one single verse where Jesus says He is going to return, not one.
I never said that Baha'u'llah was the Holy Spirit. I said that the Holy Spirit was sent to Baha'u'llah by the Father and Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity, and that is why Baha'u'llah was called the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth. It really helps to know what the Holy Spirit actually is. It is the Bounty of God, not a Person
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name (when the Father sends Baha'u'llah), he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Simple dimple. A man is required to teach all things, a disembodied Holy Spirit does not do anything at all.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
You KNOW? Here we go again! Proof, please?I do not want them to mean anything because I do not need them to mean anything, because i know the truth about what God has done since the Bible was written, so nothing in the Bible will ever change that...
This type of reasoning is completely irrational. You are going round in circles.It just so happens that what is in the Bible confirms everything I believe and that is one way I know that the Bible is fairly accurate.
LOL! It is possible to be able to read and still ignore context.I know the context because I can read as well as anyone else, so please don't pull that on me again.
Tb, anyone who throws a couple of verses out there and says “Look, this is what Scripture says about ……..” knows little about context. Your posts are a not-so-shining example of eisegesis. Please read at least some of the following:
The Importance of Biblical Context
The importance of context in Bible study
“It’s important to study Bible passages and stories within their context. Taking verses out of context leads to all kinds of error and misunderstanding. Understanding context begins with four principles: literal meaning (what it says), historical setting (the events of the story, to whom is it addressed, and how it was understood at that time), grammar (the immediate sentence and paragraph within which a word or phrase is found) and synthesis (comparing it with other parts of Scripture for a fuller meaning). Context is crucial to biblical exegesis in that it is one of its most important fundamentals. After we account for the literal, historical, and grammatical nature of a passage, we must then focus on the outline and structure of the book, then the chapter, then the paragraph. All of these things refer to "context." To illustrate, it is like looking at Google Maps and zooming in on one house”.
Why is it important to study the Bible in context? What is wrong with taking verses out of context? | GotQuestions.org
Indeed, but there are interpretations based on knowledge of genre, type, language etc.Anyone can interpret the Bible however they want to, and they have. Notably, all Christians do not interpret any verses from the Bible in the same way, which demonstrates that the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.
“At BioLogos, we believe the Bible is God’s inspired and authoritative word, from Genesis to Revelation. It tells a single, overarching story: how God created the world good and made people in his image; how people rejected God; how God made a covenant with the people of Israel; how, through the death and resurrection of his Son Jesus Christ, God has graciously redeemed broken and sinful people from every tribe and language and people and nation and has adopted them into his family; and how God’s kingdom is breaking into our world, making all things new.
The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth of this “big story” of the Bible in the hearts and minds of Christian believers. We believe that the Holy Spirit uses Scripture to bring about conviction of sin, repentance, and faith. Everyone who picks up a Bible can read it profitably, regardless of culture and education level.
That said, the Holy Spirit does not provide an unambiguous interpretation of every given text. Every time we read the Bible we have to interpret what we read. Interpreting just means making sense of a text—it is not a special skill reserved for difficult passages. The ways we go about making sense of the Bible will be influenced by our frames of reference and cultural expectations. Sometimes these can interfere with our ability to hear the intended meaning of the biblical authors.
Keeping in mind the origin of the Bible and overall purpose of Scripture can help orient our expectations as we read. When reading a particular text, we should consider the author’s intentions, literary forms and conventions, language, and cultural background of the original audience.
How should we interpret the Bible? - Common-questions
Tell me, Tb, why does it bother you so much that Christians believe that Christ will come again?These are Christian interpretations and obviously they will differ from Baha'i interpretations. From my perspective they are incorrect, not only wrong but they represent a futile attempt for Christians to keep believing that Jesus is going to return to the world.
When? Two thousand years ago, before His death and resurrection.When was Jesus ever in the unbelieving and fallen human condition?
As I thought. No, these verses are not in context, Tb. Please refer to at least one of the three links above, because you really do not understand.The context is as follows:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
It certainly does help to know who the Holy Spirit actually is.It really helps to know what the Holy Spirit actually is. It is the Bounty of God, not a Person
He (never ‘it’) is the Third Person of the Trinity.
Wrong. Let me help…John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name (when the Father sends Baha'u'llah), he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
There! Sorted. You know, Tb, you are in deep trouble when you have to add your own words to Scripture to make your point. That is a big
'No-No'.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
It is perfectly rational and now that I know the Bible backs up all my beliefs the Bible is my friend.
It is possible for anyone to do that, not just me.
You are free to believe whatever you want to. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. It does not bear witness to anything unless it ride piggyback on a man as it did when Jesus and Baha’u’llah came.
The Holy Spirit does not DO anything unless it is working through a Manifestation of God.
Millions of people have a false belief that is preventing the world from moving on to the next stage of its spiritual and social evolution. There would be something wrong with me if that did not bother me. The belief itself is immoral because of the consequences to humanity as a whole. The belief is that Jesus is coming back to earth to fix everything that is wrong in the world so they won’t have to do anything. Jesus is not coming back but they keep waiting and waiting and waiting and meanwhile the world situation keeps getting worse and worse.
If there was a reason to wait I could understand waiting but there is no reason to wait because Jesus never promised to return, and Christians refuse to look at their own scriptures that prove that because they want Jesus to return, as if wanting is going to make Jesus return. They cannot face reality, it is as simple as that.
But no problem, the Baha’is are getting the job done and will continue to do so, without much help.
Jesus was never in the unbelieving and fallen human condition.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the [unbelieving and fallen human condition], but these are in [the unbelieving and fallen human condition], and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
The interpretation from your source that says that world means unbelieving and fallen human condition is wrong, Christians just cannot face the reality of what the verse really means – Jesus will be NO MORE in the world. World means planet Earth.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
They absolutely are in context.
No, The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
Some Answered Questions, p. 108
Wrong. Let me help. The Comforter was Baha’u’llah who brought the Holy Spirit which is the Bounty of God.
I don’t have to insert anything to know that. That was just for your edification.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Comforter was the Holy Spirit who the Father sent when He sent Baha’u’llah who taught all things and brought all things that Jesus said to remembrance. I have proof that Baha’u’llah brought all things that Jesus said to remembrance in Baha’u’llah’s Writings.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
I also have proof that Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus. This is about Jesus:
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
You are saying that what the B.man claims = proof that what the B.man says is correct? His character, his works and his words are proof that he is correct? Tb, what is happening to you? Go take an elementary course in logical thinking.
If you really think that the Bible backs up all your beliefs – well, I find myself lost for words!It is perfectly rational. Now that I know the Bible backs up all my beliefs the Bible is my friend.
Of course it is. And you’re correct; it is not just you. But you are one of those who are able to read and still ignore context. So maybe you ought to do something about it…?It is possible for anyone to do that, not just me.
You are no longer making sense.You are free to believe whatever you want to. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. It does not bear witness to anything unless it ride piggyback on a man as it did when Jesus and Baha’u’llah came.
Tri-unity ‘does’ everything.The Holy Spirit does not DO anything unless it is working through a Manifestation of God.
“Explain the Trinity? We can’t even begin. We can only accept it—a mystery, disclosed in Scripture. It should be no surprise that the triune Being of God baffles our finite minds. We should be surprised, rather, if we could understand the nature of our Creator. He would be a two-bit deity, not the fathomless Source of all reality”.
“Radical Commitment,”
Christianity Today, Vol. 33, no. 4.
The assumption here is that Christians are not involved in helping to fix what is wrong in the world. You need to know that, rather than waiting, they are helping to feed the hungry, to house the homeless, to care for the children, to forgive those who have wronged them, to comfort those in distress etc.
Millions of people have a false belief that is preventing the world from moving on to the next stage of its spiritual and social evolution. There would be something wrong with me if that did not bother me. The belief itself is immoral because of the consequences to humanity as a whole. The belief is that Jesus is coming back to earth to fix everything that is wrong in the world so they won’t have to do anything. Jesus is not coming back but they keep waiting and waiting and waiting and meanwhile the world situation keeps getting worse and worse.
Oh, the irony!They cannot face reality, it is as simple as that.
You are? I can’t say I’ve noticed. How exactly are you ‘getting the job done’?[/QUOTE]
But no problem, the Baha’is are getting the job done and will continue to do so, without much help.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never said that claims = proof. I have told you before that claims are not proof of anything because anyone can make claims. I also never said that evidence is the same as proof.
Did you notice that on that post the claims and the evidence were listed separately? From that post:
CLAIMS:
All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions.
Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.
Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.
EVIDENCE:
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
Good.
What am I ignoring? How would you know I am ignoring it?
Of course it would not make sense to you that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God because you are convinced that the Holy Spirit is a Person.
The Trinity is not in any scripture. It cannot be because Jesus is God is not in any scripture. Also in no scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is God. It is clear from reading the scripture in context that the Holy Spirit is an emanation from God, thus the Bounty of God.
The Trinity is a man-made doctrine of the Church, plain and simple.
That is because it is nonsensical and such a God does not exist. God would not be secretive about His nature. God clearly said He was one in the Old Testament. God did not suddenly just split into parts and become three when Jesus showed up.
I am not suggesting we can ever know the nature of God. Baha’u’llah make it perfectly clear we cannot know the nature of God, but we can know that God is one and not three.
“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73
“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity.” Gleanings, p. 167
“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God.” Gleanings, p. 174
It is in the Bible, not just the Baha’i scriptures.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.
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If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?
During his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God, and ... none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God....
You do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, or the last Gospel. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier gospels and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things. ...
I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make. This is not an unusual view amongst scholars; it's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understanding of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate.
If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?
There is no irony, only reality, the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, which was a complete fulfillment of the biblical prophecies… And where is Jesus? Nowhere, because He never promised to return to earth, and He even said He was NOT coming back to earth.
The irony is that millions of people believe in a complete fantasy that Jesus is coming back to earth and that is not even supported by their own Bible.
Have you looked at what the Baha’is are doing all around the world? Most of them are not on forums like me, they are working within the organization.
What Bahá’ís Do
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I said: “You KNOW? Here we go again! Proof, please?”I never said that claims = proof. I have told you before that claims are not proof of anything because anyone can make claims. I also never said that evidence is the same as proof.
You responded with a link to a four-year-old post on this forum. This post proved nothing. So… it seems that you say “I know” but you cannot provide the proof that leads you to say “I know”.
The Analysis of Knowledge (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
I am glad we agree that claims – anyone’s claims -- are not proof of anything at all
Here’s what you said:I never said that claims = proof.
“The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the greatest proof of God's existence”.
You ask what you are ignoring. You are ignoring everything surrounding the verse in question – the context within which the verse appears in Scripture. I know what you are ignoring because I do understand the context.
One recent example is the use in Scripture of the word ‘world’ You seem to have no idea that this word has different meanings throughout Scripture. And I can see that you haven’t a clue about Biblical interpretation.
Try this:
What Are Exegesis and Eisegesis? 2 Ways to Read the Bible
Exegesis Definition: Exegesis essentially means using the words of the text in Scripture, through the lens of their original context, to determine their intent. In other words, if one analyzes Scripture exegetically, they won’t come to the text with any conclusions.
They let the text itself reveal what the writer is revealing to the reader. By doing this, we don’t read anything into Scripture that wasn’t there before, and we study the meaning of the passage that was intended for a specific audience.
Eisegesis Definition: Eisegesismeans reading into the text with a preconceived notion we may have. This can often mean coming to the Scripture with a biased cultural lens that didn’t exist during the time the Bible was written. Of course, theologians frown upon this approach because it isn’t rooted in Scripture.
At its worst, it can be used to twist Scripture to assert a certain belief. Politicians or other leaders may take a Bible verse out of context and interpret it using their own biased perspective to justify implementing a policy.
Hermeneutics Definition: Hermeneutics goes somewhat hand in hand with exegesis. Hermeneutics is more concerned about how you interpret a passage (if you choose to do one process versus another), and exegesis means actually researching and discovering the meaning behind the text. Usually, theologians pair hermeneutics with exegesis because you cannot have one without the other.
That is not what I meant. Please re-read. You don’t make sense because you are becoming more and more illogical.Of course it would not make sense to you that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God because you are convinced that the Holy Spirit is a Person.
The Trinity is the opposite of plain and simple:--The Trinity is a man-made doctrine of the Church, plain and simple.
"It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of the Christian doctrine that God is one in three persons. This has correctly been called the teaching distinctive of the Christian faith, that which sets the approach of Christians to the "fearful mystery" of the deity apart from all other approaches".
Gerald S. Sloyan, The Three Persons in One God, 1964
Surprisingly enough, He said He is One because He is One. But you’re correct about God not being divided into three parts. Christians believe this too, so you’re in good company!God would not be secretive about His nature. God clearly said He was one in the Old Testament. God did not suddenly just split into parts and become three when Jesus showed up.
QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 7157675, member: 63455"]
Of course God is One. Have I ever said otherwise?
You cannot think of any reason that would explain why Jesus would not say to others “I am God”? Use our imagination, Tb., and use N.T. context when you do so.I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself.
Jesus, Second Person of the Trinity, is not ‘nowhere’. Exactly the opposite, in fact; He is eternally present.And where is Jesus? Nowhere, because He never promised to return to earth, and He even said He was NOT coming back to earth.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I have all the proof I need and I posted in a couple of posts ago. Here it is again.
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
The reason I KNOW is because I was guided by God:
“Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God’s Will, than all,except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 11
That would also include any claims that were made in the Bible.
But I never said that the claim was the proof and I never said it would constitute proof for everybody. Many people are just blind, as Jesus said.
Then explain what you believe the verse means in context, not what someone else on the internet said it means. Now’s your chance! What do you think this verse means?
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
You are just obfuscating and blowing smoke. It doesn’t MATTER what the word “world” means in OTHER parts of Scripture. It only matters what it means in John 17.
You are not going to get anywhere by saying I don’t have a clue about Biblical interpretation. That is just an attempt to deflect.
You are the one who has the problem. Many words occur throughout Scripture and they don’t have the same meaning in every part of Scripture. It depends upon the context. For example the word "spirit" can mean many different things depending upon the context.
Now you are starting to talk like an atheist, calling me illogical but not being able to explain why I am illogical. There is nothing to re-read because you did not explain anything. You just said it did not make sense.
That is true, the doctrine itself is not plain or simple, but I was not referring to the doctrine itself, I was referring to the FACT that it is a man-made doctrine of the Church. Context is very important.
Yet you believe God is there Persons. You cannot have it both ways.
You have said that God is comprised of three Persons.
Sorry, you cannot make this work.
Because He was not God is the obvious reason.
If you think there was another reason why don’t you tell me what you think it is?
Please stop playing games because I am getting tired of them.
Why did Jesus refer to Himself as a Prophet, if He was God?
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Why would Jesus lie about being a prophet?
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And why did you ignore what I posted about Matthew, Mark and Luke?
I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make. This is not an unusual view amongst scholars; it's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understanding of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate.
If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?
How can you betray what Jesus says in your own Bible for a false doctrine of the Church? Are you that brainwashed that you cannot even think for yourself? What is this obsession you have with the Trinity doctrine? It is NOT biblical but you are going to believe it anyway, even though the Bible proves Jesus is not God 1000 times over. I am getting very close to the end of this discussion unless we have something else to discuss because you are stuck in your beliefs and I am not changing mine.
Christians never change but I have learned something very useful in discussions with Christians. Even if I had never heard of Baha'u'llah I would know who Jesus was and who God was, because it is right there in the Bible!
Jesus, who was a Manifestation of God, is in heaven with God, where he went after He was crucified..
“Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: “Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, ‘I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?’” Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?” These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 132-133
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Good for you, but this is a debate forum. When you state on a debate forum that you have ‘proof’, you will probably be asked to let everyone have a look at this proof. Here is what you provided:I have all the proof I need and I posted in a couple of posts ago.
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106[/QUOTE]
This is not proof, Tb. It may convince you, but even if others get past the ‘haths’, the ‘whosos’, the ‘verilys’ and the rest of the convoluted prose, it will convince very few others.
Ah! So how do you account for the fact that many who disagree with you have also been guided by God?The reason I KNOW is because I was guided by God:
Absolutely! I think you’re beginning to ‘get it’!!That would also include any claims that were made in the Bible.
Yes, that must be it. Those who do not believe what you believe are blind. Very cultish!But I never said that the claim was the proof and I never said it would constitute proof for everybody. Many people are just blind, as Jesus said.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is proof to me. I said I have all the proof I need.
Why should I care if it is proof to anyone else? Everyone won’t see it as proof.
The ‘haths’, the ‘whosos’, the ‘verilys’ are only in the words He hath revealed. Baha’u’llah clearly stated what order in which we should consider the evidence
1. The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self
2. Next to this testimony is His Revelation.
3. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed
I do not believe they were guided, I believe they were misled.
People who reject the signs of God cannot be guided because that would violate their free will to choose.
"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
If they still don’t see it after they have been presented with it numerous times then they are blind.
Label it whatever you want. Jesus said that those who did not recognize Him were blind…..
Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
Then Baha’u’llah said something similar about the heart….. History repeats itself.
“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39
“Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure. The blind, though unable to perceive the light of the sun, are, nevertheless, capable of experiencing its continual heat. The blind in heart, however, among the people of the Bayán—and to this God is My witness—are impotent, no matter how long the Sun may shine upon them, either to perceive the radiance of its glory, or to appreciate the warmth of its rays.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 106
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
And it means, in John 17, what I said it meant.You are just obfuscating and blowing smoke. It doesn’t MATTER what the word “world” means in OTHER parts of Scripture. It only matters what it means in John 17.
LOL! Whatever you say, Tb.You are not going to get anywhere by saying I don’t have a clue about Biblical interpretation. That is just an attempt to deflect.
Exactly.You are the one who has the problem. Many words occur throughout Scripture and they don’t have the same meaning in every part of Scripture. It depends upon the context. For example the word "spirit" can mean many different things depending upon the context.
I asked you to re-read your words: “I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. It does not bear witness to anything unless it ride piggyback on a man as it did when Jesus and Baha’u’llah came”
Now you are starting to talk like an atheist, calling me illogical but not being able to explain why I am illogical. There is nothing to re-read because you did not explain anything. You just said it did not make sense.
This makes no sense to me. Maybe you could rephrase?
Not a FACT, Tb. It was God-made in Eternity before it was man-made.That is true, the doctrine itself is not plain or simple, but I was not referring to the doctrine itself, I was referring to the FACT that it is a man-made doctrine of the Church. Context is very important.
I believe thatYet you believe God is there Persons. I am assuming you mean three Persons.
God is ONE Being; THREE Persons.
God is ONE
But there are not ‘two ways’. There is one way. See aboveYou cannot have it both ways.
You have said that God is comprised of three Persons.
Sorry, you cannot make this work
Don’t be sorry; it ‘works’ very well for me and for millions of others.Yes, I suppose that IS the obvious reason. But there is another, more nuanced reason. Think about how things were politically and also within the political establishment of the time. Think about the rigidity of the Pharisees to non-conformity. (This is called looking at the ‘context’).Because He was not God is the obvious reason.
See above.Why did Jesus refer to Himself as a Prophet, if He was God? Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not recall you ever explaining what YOU believe John 17:11 means.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
You posted some other opinions about the meaning of the word “world” and the meaning of John 14:19, but that is not the same verse.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
What Does John 14:19 Mean?
and, from
What does John 14:19 mean?
the following:
"The world," in these contexts, means the unbelieving and fallen human condition. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come (John 14:16), but noted that unbelievers would neither see nor know Him (John 14:17). Here again He notes that this is the end of His earthly presence, in a form visible even to those who do not believe (John 12:44–46). The disciples, on the other hand, will see Jesus again, and soon (John 16:16; 20:19).
John14:15–31 contains a prediction about the Holy Spirit. Jesus refers to this as the Spirit of Truth, and promises that the Spirit will arrive to help the disciples carry on after Jesus is ascended to heaven. Throughout this section, a person's love for Christ, their obedience to His teachings, and the indwelling of the Spirit are intertwined. As in prior statements, Jesus is focused on comfort and encouragement. He will continue to highlight the need to maintain faith, based on all He has said and done so far. Later, after advance warnings about what Christians will face, Jesus will return to describing the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that is sent by God to Manifestations of God such as Jesus and Baha’u’llah. After they receive the Holy Spirit from God those Manifestations of God bring the Holy Spirit to humanity. Baha’u’llah describes how Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. “His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit” is the Holy Spirit that Jesus brought to humanity.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Can you prove that as a fact? Otherwise, it is just a belief, a belief that is nowhere to be found in Scripture, which is why I said it was man-made doctrine of the Church.
It does not MATTER how many millions of people believe it, that does not mean it is true.
the fallacy of argumentum ad populum
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea. Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.
I figured that is what you would say, but it does not hold water that none of the gospels “of Jesus” have Jesus EVER saying He is God, and yet He is God. It makes more sense that the Church made up this doctrine and there is plenty of evidence that proves that is exactly what happened at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. They knew Jesus was more than a man, and that He was, but they did not realize that He was a Manifestation of God, not God in the flesh, so they voted and decided to make Jesus God. They also had political reasons for doing this, it was a way to control the masses. This is all in Christian history, available to anyone to read on the internet.
Bear in mind people did not have access to Bibles like they do now, so back then people just believed what was taught by religious leaders in the Church. Now most Christians still believe that Jesus is God because they still don’t question what was passed down in 325 AD. But not all Christians believe that Jesus is God and they are all reading the same Bible.
That is absolutely ludicrous, that Jesus, the perfect man, would lie in order to protect Himself from a few Jews. Lying is a sin and Jesus was sinless. Also please bear in mind that Jesus KNEW He was going to be crucified, and He chose to be crucified to save all of humanity, so why would He be afraid of a few Jews?
Why not just accept that Jesus was a Manifestation of God and not God in the flesh? It does not lessen Jesus in any way and it makes logical sense and fits with all of Scripture.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
"Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus said He would come again, but Jesus did not say ‘how’ He would come so there is no reason to think this one verse is Jesus saying He will come to earth again in the same physical body He had when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago.
When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to His physical body coming again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).
Since Jesus said He was no more in the world and the world would see Him no more we know that when He said "and receive you unto myself" He was not talking about His physical body, but rather He was referring to His spirit. Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and ‘do’ anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as most Christians believe Jesus will do.
"and receive you unto myself" is obviously about the Spirit of Jesus, not about His physical body, because there would be no way that the disciples Jesus was speaking to could receive the body of Jesus on earth since they were no longer living on earth. Where Jesus was in heaven and that is where the disciples also are, so that is where Jesus received them. That is why Jesus said that He went to prepare a place for them, a place in heaven, not on earth.
The spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah who was the return of Christ that Jesus promised. So when Jesus said “I will come again” He meant that His Spirit would come again because He would send His Spirit from the Father, and we see that in the verses that follow in John 14. Jesus promised not to leave us comfortless and then He said He would send a Comforter. The Comforter refers to the person who would be the return of Christ. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His spirit in the person of the Comforter who would do what it says in John 14:26.
John 14 KJV
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
"and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” is referring to heaven, not earth, because Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place in heaven, not on earth. Jesus was preparing a place in heaven so they could be with him in heaven.
John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To summarize, Jesus did not say "my body will come again." The spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah, and that was what Jesus promised to send. Jesus was a Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
These verses are not about Jesus coming again in the same physical body He had 2000 years ago.
Coming in the clouds means that the return of Christ would be veiled from most people so not everyone would recognize Him.
The Son of Man referred to is not Jesus.
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity. The B,man was delusional.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah. The Bible shows that Jesus was not God, and Jesus says that He was not God, so Jesus is not God unless the Bible is in error. You have to choose, the Trinity doctrine or the Bible, because the Bible does not support the Trinity doctrine at all.
Moreover, if you are asserting that Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity that is an argument from ignorance.
Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
- true
- false
- unknown between true or false
- being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
No, I don't have to choose. Why not? Because because I see the Trinity throughout the entire Bible.You have to choose, the Trinity doctrine or the Bible, because the Bible does not support the Trinity doctrine at all.
You do not.
Simple.
Tb cannot see the Bible showing that Jesus is God; therefore The Bible does not show that Jesus is God.If you are asserting that Jesus is the Second person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity that is an argument from ignorance.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
samtonga43 cannot see that the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God; therefore the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God.
Is there any point continuing this conversation? Quite frankly, I find the belief that Jesus is God very offensive so it offends me to have to hear it over and over and over again.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
LOL! If the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God, then the logical conclusion is … what?samtonga43 cannot see that the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God; therefore The Bible does not show that Jesus is not God.
Think, Tb.
Think.
(Warning: double negatives can be dangerous).
Offensive? Now this IS interesting.Is there any point continuing this conversation? Quite frankly, I find the belief that Jesus is God very offensive so it offends me to have to hear it over and over and over again.
I find your constant assertion that the B.man was a manifestation of God to be is highly amusing, but not important enough that I could ever be offended. Do you feel threatened by the idea of a Triune God?