Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Trailblazer]

LOL! If the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God, then the logical conclusion is … what?

The Bible does show that Jesus is not God so what you said is a moot point.

Offensive? Now this IS interesting.
I find your constant assertion that the B.man was a manifestation of God to be is highly amusing, but not important enough that I could ever be offended. Do you feel threatened by the idea of a Triune God?

Threatened? That has to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. I am not personally offended but I consider it offensive to make Jesus into God and I am sure Jesus would be offended. I also consider it sheer blasphemy to make the one true God into a Triune God.

If I say any more I will get a moderator note, so I won't.

 

[samtonga43]

The Bible does show that Jesus is not God so what you said is a moot point.

You have missed the point. You said that I cannot see that the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God; therefore The Bible does not show that Jesus is not God.
But If the Bible does NOT show that Jesus is NOT God then you are … mistaken. Do you understand?
I agree that the Bible does NOT show that Jesus is NOT God. As I said, you have fallen into the double negative trap.

Threatened? That has to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. I am not personally offended but I consider it offensive to make Jesus into God and I am sure Jesus would be offended. I also consider it sheer blasphemy to make the one true God into a Triune God.

I see. I’m glad you are not personally offended, and that you find it funny that I thought you came across as feeling threatened, but you do seem to be very annoyed. Do you consider many other beliefs to be offensive, or just certain Christian beliefs?
Btw, I did not ‘make Jesus into God’. The one true God IS Triune. It's all through Scripture

“Some Jews and Muslims accuse Christians of being idolatrous for believing in the Trinity. My response to both groups is that they fundamentally misunderstand the Christian understanding of the Trinity”.
Miroslav Volf, Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture at Yale University.

I’m with Miroslav!

The Bible does show that Jesus is not God so what you said is a moot point.

You have missed the point. You said that I cannot see that the Bible does not show that Jesus is not God; therefore The Bible does not show that Jesus is not God.

If the Bible does NOT show that Jesus is NOT God then you are … mistaken. Do you understand?

I agree that the Bible does NOT show that Jesus is NOT God.

Threatened? That has to be the funniest thing I have ever heard. I am not personally offended but I consider it offensive to make Jesus into God and I am sure Jesus would be offended. I also consider it sheer blasphemy to make the one true God into a Triune God.

I see. I’m glad you are not personally offended, but you do seem to be very annoyed. Do you consider many other beliefs to be offensive, or just certain Christian beliefs?

Btw, I did not ‘make Jesus into God’. The one true God IS Triune.

“Some Jews and Muslims accuse Christians of being idolatrous for believing in the Trinity. My response to both groups is that they fundamentally misunderstand the Christian understanding of the Trinity”.

Miroslav Volf, Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture at Yale University

I’m with Miroslav!

 

[samtonga43]

What is a moderator note?

 

[Muffled]

But Jesus never promised to return. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus say He is going to return to earth.

Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4)

There is no justification for believing that clouds means literal clouds. Baha'u'llah was seen by many but veiled from many.
It does not matter what I like, all that matters is what is true and what is actually in the Bible. Jesus never planned or promised to return to earth in the same body. He promised that the Father would give us another Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit, and that was Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

I believe I am going to give up on you . You evidently will believe what you want to believe and ignore the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe I am going to give up on you . You evidently will believe what you want to believe and ignore the truth.

I believe I am going to give up on you. You evidently will believe what you want to believe and ignore what is actually in the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is a moderator note?

It is a note you get from a moderator when you break the forum rules.

The moderators (short singular form: "mod") are users (or employees) of the forum who are granted access to the posts and threads of all members for the purpose of moderating discussion (similar to arbitration) and also keeping the forum clean (neutralizing spam and spambots etc.).

Internet forum - Wikipedia

 

[samtonga43]

I believe I am going to give up on you. You evidently will believe what you want to believe and ignore what is actually in the Bible.

Having read posts from both of you, There is no doubt in my mind that Muffled is not the one who ignores what is actually in the Bible.
***
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you”.

At what point in His earthly life did Jesus say these words?
To whom did He say them?
Why did He say them?
What effect did He wish these words to have on the people to whom He spoke?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you”.

At what point in His earthly life did Jesus say these words?
To whom did He say them?
Why did He say them?
What effect did He wish these words to have on the people to whom He spoke?

He said that right before He died and ascended to heaven.
He said them to His disciples, but it was not only for them.
He said them because He was going to send the Spirit of truth from the Father in heaven.
The effect He hoped the words would have is that they would recognize the Spirit of truth when He came.

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Remember, context is very important. The Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies and all the other prophecies for the return of Christ in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.

 

[samtonga43]

He said that right before He died and ascended to heaven. He said them to His disciples, but it was not only for them.
He said them because He was going to send the Spirit of truth from the father in heaven.

He said it just before He was crucified and buried in a tomb. He was speaking to His disciples, who were confused and terrified, and would be even more terrified and lost when His dead body was laid out in that tomb. He spoke to them in this way to reassure them, because He loved them, and knew (because He is God) that the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Trinity, would come to them at Pentecost in a manner which would banish all doubt.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in.

That's just silly. There is absolutely no need for the Holy Sprit to be ‘sent again’. Why? Because He is eternally present. Pentecost is the first of the last days. The last days anticipated by Joel have arrived, and the Spirit the prophet longed for has been given, for all time.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

Nonsense.
Nothing to do with the B.man. Everything to do with the Holy Spirit.

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

Eisegesis. All of it. Read the science.

There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies and all the other prophecies for the return of Christ in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Yes, I’m getting through this (very slowly, because it hurts my brain). It’s not convincing.

Tell me, Tb, did Baha’u’llah ever claim to be God?

 

[Trailblazer]

He said it just before He was crucified and buried in a tomb. He was speaking to His disciples, who were confused and terrified, and would be even more terrified and lost when His dead body was laid out in that tomb. He spoke to them in this way to reassure them, because He loved them, and knew (because He is God) that the Holy Spirit, Third Person of the Trinity, would come to them at Pentecost in a manner which would banish all doubt.

Jesus did not have to be God to know what He would be doing because Jesus had God's knowledge, just like Baha'u'llah did.

Well, I was in the ball park. You cannot expect me to know all the details of Christian history as well as you do, and it is not as if the Bible is laid out in chronological order. So are you saying that Acts 2:2 was Jesus sending the Holy Spirit from heaven and then after that the disciples were all filled with the Holy Spirit?

That's just silly. There is absolutely no need for the Holy Spirit to be ‘sent again’. Why? Because He is eternally present.

It might be eternally present but it wanes over time, and that is why it needed to be sent again; but even if the Holy Spirit didn't need to be sent Baha'u'llah needed to be set because He brought a new message that is needed in these times and that is exactly as Jesus had promised when He said "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.".

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Pentecost is the first of the last days. The last days anticipated by Joel have arrived, and the Spirit the prophet longed for has been given, for all time.

This is Pentecost:

Acts 2 KJV

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the last days which arrived when Baha'u'llah arrived, when the Holy Spirit was will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Nonsense.
Nothing to do with the B.man. Everything to do with the Holy Spirit.

It has everything to do with Baha'u'llah and the Holy Spirit because Baha'u'llah was Comforter/Spirit of truth who brought the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:18-19 are prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha'ullah, and they are exactly the same prophecies given in other parts of the Bible. That is explained in the book Thief in the Night.

Rev 6:12-13 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

Matthew 24:29-30 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Yes, I’m getting through this (very slowly, because it hurts my brain). It’s not convincing.

Well, it is good ti hear you are reading it. What is not convincing? Some of these prophecies are also in this 10 minute video.

Tell me, Tb, did Baha’u’llah ever claim to be God?

No, Baha'u'llah disclaimed being God:

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors. I and My kindred are at your mercy. Do ye as ye please, and be not of them that hesitate, that I might return to God My Lord, and reach the place where I can no longer behold your faces. This, indeed, is My dearest wish, My most ardent desire. Of My state God is, verily, sufficiently informed, observant.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

However, He claimed to be the Father foretold by Isaiah

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“O CONCOURSE of priests! Leave the bells, and come forth, then, from your churches. It behoveth you, in this day, to proclaim aloud the Most Great Name among the nations. Prefer ye to be silent, whilst every stone and every tree shouteth aloud: ‘The Lord is come in His great glory!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 94

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory. “ The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

"The Lord is come" does not actually mean that God descended down to earth, it means that God manifested Himself on earth, just as God did when Jesus came down from heaven. Jesus was Hod manifested in the flesh, just not God incarnated in the flesh because God cannot become flesh.

Baha'u'llah also claimed to be the Lord of Hosts.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

 

[samtonga43]

Jesus did not have to be God to know what He would be doing because Jesus had God's knowledge, just like Baha'u'llah did.

Jesus’s human nature is human, and human only. His divine nature is divine, and divine only. For example, Jesus’s human nature did not become all-knowing through its union with God the Son, and neither did his divine nature become ignorant of anything. If any of the natures underwent a change in its essential nature, then Christ is no longer truly and fully human, or truly and fully divine.
How Can Jesus Be God and Man?

You cannot expect me to know all the details of Christian history as well as you do,

Believe me, Tb, I expect nothing at all from you. But I am learning a lot about the method by which you attempt to apply reason and comprehension to what you read. You say that ‘the Bible is your friend’. Maybe you should get to know it a bit better than you obviously do?

So are you saying that Acts 2:2 was Jesus sending the Holy Spirit from heaven and then after that the disciples were all filled with the Holy Spirit?

If I were you, Tb, I would read ALL of Acts 2. There you will find the answer to your question. Pulling a verse from its context will teach you very little.
(I would advise reading from the ESV, because its language suits the age in which we live.)
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More later...

 

[samtonga43]

It might be eternally present but it wanes over time, and that is why it needed to be sent again; but even if the Holy Spirit didn't need to be sent Baha'u'llah needed to be set because He brought a new message that is needed in these times and that is exactly as Jesus had promised when He said "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.".

The Holy Spirit of God is eternally present and cannot ‘wane’.
“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you”.
John 14:16-17
He is the Spirit of truth – and truth is truth, no matter the age in which we live. The Holy Spirit is guiding us into all truth, and the B.man’s ‘messages’ are surplus to requirement.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Yes!
And He DID come.
At Pentecost.

This is the last days which arrived when Baha'u'llah arrived, when the Holy Spirit was will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

Nope. Pentecost was the first of the last days, and the Holy Spirit came – not the B.man.

Well, it is good ti hear you are reading it. What is not convincing?

I can find nothing that IS convincing. I am amazed that you have been taken in by this.

Edited to add:

No, Baha'u'llah disclaimed being God:

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)
And what’s more the B,man created ALL Gods!!
"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree” (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib , vol. 2, p. 255 [citing Baha'u'llah])

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus’s human nature is human, and human only. His divine nature is divine, and divine only. For example, Jesus’s human nature did not become all-knowing through its union with God the Son, and neither did his divine nature become ignorant of anything. If any of the natures underwent a change in its essential nature, then Christ is no longer truly and fully human, or truly and fully divine.

Jesus is cannot be fully human if Jesus is fully divine, and Jesus cannot be fully divine if Jesus is fully human, not according to the definition of fully:

Fully: completely or entirely; to the furthest extent. fully means - Google Search

But perhaps you mean something else? Moving right along…..

How Can Jesus Be God and Man?

Let’s look at more of what your article says:

There are five main truths with which the creed of Chalcedon summarized the biblical teaching on the Incarnation:

1. Jesus has two natures — He is God and man.
2. Each nature is full and complete — He is fully God and fully man.
3. Each nature remains distinct.
4. Christ is only one Person.
5. Things that are true of only one nature are nonetheless true of the Person of Christ.

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1. Jesus has two natures — True, He has a spiritual (divine) nature and a human nature.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 66

The official position of the Baha’i Faith as per the Guardian is as follows:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized,” The Promised Day is Come, p. 109

2. Each nature is full and complete — I’m not sure what that means but Jesus is only God in a sense that He manifests God, as the fullness of God did not incarnate and become a man. In other words, all of God did not become the man Jesus. God remains in His own high place separate from Jesus.

3. Each nature remains distinct. --- I can buy that. His human nature is distinct from His spiritual nature which is born of the substance if God.

4. Christ is only one Person – I can buy that even though I don’t believe Jesus is a Person of the Trinity.

5. Things that are true of only one nature are nonetheless true of the Person of Christ – I can buy that.

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Let’s look at more of what your article claims:

Jesus Is God

--- Another way the Bible teaches that Jesus is God is by showing that he has all of the attributes of God.

Jesus does not have all the attributes of God and that is one way we know that Jesus is not God.

The attributes that are unique to God: Only God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

God sends His Manifestations such as Jesus who reflect all of His attributes, except the unique ones noted above. Humans have the potential to reflect all of the attributes of God except the unique ones, including Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

--- He knows everything (Matthew 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29),

Jesus does not know everything, only God is all-knowing. Citing (Matthew 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29) was a rather pathetic attempt to prove Jesus knows everything, as not one of those verses demonstrates that Jesus knows everything.

--- is everywhere (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Acts 18:10),

How do any of these verses say Jesus is everywhere, which means omnipresent?

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

--- has all power (Matthew 8:26–27; 28:18; John 11:38–44; Luke 7:14–15; Revelation 1:8),

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All power to do what? Jesus had all power to speak for God. This is Cherry-picking verses and reading then out of context.

John 11:38–44 –
13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.

What the hell do any of these verses have to do with Jesus being all-powerful? The answer is NOTHING.

--- depends on nothing outside of himself for life (John 1:4; 14:6; 8:58),

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

How do those verses show that Jesus depends on nothing outside of himself for life (is self-sufficient, like God is?) They say no such thing.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus was before Abraham because the soul of Jesus existed in heaven long before Abraham was born. That does not mean Jesus is God.

--- rules over everything (Matthew 28:18; Revelation 1:5; 19:16,

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All power to do what? Jesus had all power to speak for God. Again, this is Cherry-picking verses and reading then out of context.

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

How does that verse say Jesus rules over everything? It doesn’t say that.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Sorry, that verse is about Baha’u’llah who is the King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords, but it does not mean He rules over everything.

--- never began to exist and never will cease to exist (John 1:1; 8:58),

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If Jesus was the Word, and the Word was with God, Jesus could not be God. That denotes two separate entities. Jesus, the Word, was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus was before Abraham because the soul of Jesus existed in heaven long before Abraham was born. That does not mean Jesus is God.

--- and is our Creator (Colossians 1:16).

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Remember, context is very important. If Jesus was the image of the invisible God, how could He be God in the flesh? An image is not the same as what it reflects. Also, Jesus was not invisible, Jesus was visible to many people.

Colossians 1:16 is complete blarney and contradicts John 1, which says that all things were made by God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````
--- In other words, everything that God is, Jesus is. For Jesus is God.

If this claim was not so laughable it would be sickening. I don’t know whether to laugh or get sick. Again, the verses Christians use to try to prove Jesus is God do the exact opposite.

How can anyone be so deluded? I think it is really about an inability to reason and understand what verses mean.
Either they are just plain stupid or they are reading into these verses and trying to make them mean that Jesus is God.

If I were you, Tb, I would read ALL of Acts 2. There you will find the answer to your question. Pulling a verse from its context will teach you very little.
(I would advise reading from the ESV, because its language suits the age in which we live.)

I have read all of Acts 2, over and over again, but I am not going to post all of it. I was asking about one specific verse that has a particular meaning in context.

What do you think I am going to find out by reading it again in the ESV that I have not already stated? It is ALL a matter of interpretation after all. You have one interpretation and I have another. I did read the ESV an di did nit see anything that would disprove what I believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Holy Spirit of God is eternally present and cannot ‘wane’.

Do you have proof of that or is that just an assertion? No, it is a belief.
My belief is as follows When the Holy Spirit wanes God sends a new Messenger to renew it.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you”.
John 14:16-17

He is the Spirit of truth – and truth is truth, no matter the age in which we live. The Holy Spirit is guiding us into all truth, and the B.man’s ‘messages’ are surplus to requirement.

The Holy Spirit living inside Christians is not doing any of the things that Jesus said it would do. A man bringing the Holy Spirit was required to accomplish this, as Baha’u’llah clearly did.

The Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a man could do those things:

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Yes!
And He DID come.
At Pentecost.

No, the Spirit of truth did not come at Pentecost, He came in 1852 AD. Baha’u’llah did exactly what Jesus said the Spirit of truth would do when He glorified Jesus.

“He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you”

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

Nope. Pentecost was the first of the last days, and the Holy Spirit came – not the B.man.

The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and then it came again in 1844 when the Bab appeared, then it came again in 1852 when Baha’u’llah appeared.

Dream on. Even Christians know that the last days begin when Christ returns and we are in the last days because Christ has returned.

I can find nothing that IS convincing. I am amazed that you have been taken in by this.

If prophecies that were fulfilled as written aren’t convincing I don’t know what will ever be.

Think again. I was never “taken in” by that book. I never even read it till recently and I have been a Baha’i for over 50 years.

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)

Where did you get that quote? Where is the link? That is not in any official translations of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, it is from a website that seeks to misrepresent and discredit Baha’u’llah, there are lots of those. How gullible are you anyway?

And what’s more the B,man created ALL Gods!!
"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree” (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib , vol. 2, p. 255 [citing Baha'u'llah])

No, not citing Baha’u’llah, not unless it can be found in the one and only official translation of Baha’u’llah’s Writings.

Please do not post any more verses without links to the websites. Do I ever do that?

 

[Trailblazer]

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)
And what’s more the B,man created ALL Gods!!
"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree” (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib , vol. 2, p. 255 [citing Baha'u'llah])

I was looking to find out where these quotes came from and I WILL get to the bottom of it...
Meanwhile, during my search I found something I think you should read:

Scott Hakala, Ph.D Econ, Baha'i, interest in morals and religion

On what basis do people reject Bahá'u'lláh as a prophet?

There are many reasons why people reject the claims of a relatively new or less known Messenger. How many people even know the story of Baha’ullah, His lineage (descendant of Abraham, Zoroasters and the Persian kings mentioned in the Hebrew Bible), His history, and His teachings? This failure of to recognize the Messengers and the Source of guidance has been a consistent theme and complaint in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles and in the Quran. It has been the theme of many religious texts that men have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, and hearts but cannot feel (variations on this can be found in the texts of all the major monotheistic faiths practiced at this time).

Most people are unaware of or unwilling to fully investigate the Writings and claims of the Baha’i Faith. The claims of Baha’u’llah are quite strong and difficult for many people to accept at face value without substantial effort investigating fully the matter and without an open mind to the possibilities. Few people are willing to fully investigate religion or religious matters in general. For persons that believe in God, most of the bases for rejection are out of fear of the unknown or change (including fear of the consequences economically, in one’s family, and to one’s reputation from changing one’s faith), ignorance of the reality and facts and the Message, and/or due to certain dogmatic beliefs or unrealistic expectations regarding the meaning of certain passages in their religious texts or certain misunderstandings of their faiths. There is a tendency for these reasons to simply dismiss out of hand anything that does not “fit” within a person’s existing understanding of reality and religion.

For persons that are agnostic or atheist, they have a number of reasons for being skeptical of religion and of religious claims in general (often rightly so given the corruptions and misdeeds of persons associated with the religious of the past). At some point, therefore, agnostics and atheists will tend to simply dismiss out of hand religion in general and will ignore or similarly dismiss specific claims of new or less known religions (which will receive little attention). Indeed, they may be inclined to believe the worst and focus on the faults and not the successes and contributions of religion to humanity over time throughout history.

In this case, Baha’u’llah and then His son, Abdu’-l-Baha, demonstrated tremendous knowledge without learning. They did this despite suffering imprisonment and exile and despite Baha’u’llah being tortured and even poisoned. Their Writings and Abdu’l-Baha’s talks were a matter of public record, so they left a rare and unique record on such matters to verify. See Baha'i Reference Library

for notable examples. They did this despite receiving only limited rudimentary education. They spoke on many subjects and have been subsequently validated by more recent scientific developments in a variety of fields. They rejected the superstitious beliefs of the past in acknowledging mankind’s evolution and development and the errors and misunderstandings of the religions of the past. They also made numerous predictions that came true, including about fates of certain rulers and religious leaders, the coming wars in Europe (WWI and WWII), the advent of nuclear power (and its dangers), and the rise of weapons. (This is entirely contrary to another answer’s suggestions. In fact, a one-time ardent opponent of the Baha’i Faith, Mirza Abdu’l-Fadl, converted to the Baha’i Faith and eventually became an outstanding proponent of the Faith upon the realization of one of Baha’u’llah’s predictions.) Finally, they have had an, as yet, underappreciated effect on the development of thought in certain fields and in the evolution of modern international affairs.

In many instances, the leaders of prior religious traditions have strongly opposed the new Messenger. This is what happened in the Baha’i Faith. From the Faith’s inception, the Bab and then Baha’u’llah and their followers were subject to tremendous hostility in Iran and later in the Middle East from the Islamic clergy. This opposition occurred despite the fact that certain respected religious scholars and members of the clergy in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism adopted this Faith during the life of Baha’u’llah. Some of these persons gave up their promising careers as imams, ministers, or rabbis in becoming Baha’is. These persons risked persecution, opposition by family members, and, yet, persevered in their faith in Baha’u’llah.

As Baha’u’llah Himself explained:

“Therefore, should a person arise and bring forth a myriad verses, discourses, epistles, and prayers, none of which have been acquired through learning, what conceivable excuse could justify those that reject them, and deprive themselves of the potency of their grace? What answer could they give when once their soul hath ascended and departed from its gloomy temple? Could they seek to justify themselves by saying: “We have clung to a certain tradition, and not having beheld the literal fulfilment thereof, we have therefore raised such cavils against the Embodiments of divine Revelation, and kept remote from the law of God?” Hast thou not heard that among the reasons why certain Prophets have been designated as Prophets “endowed with constancy” was the revelation of a Book unto them? And yet, how could this people be justified in rejecting the Revealer and Author of so many volumes of verses, and follow the sayings of him who hath foolishly sown the seeds of doubt in the hearts of men, and who, Satan-like, hath risen to lead the people into the paths of perdition and error? How could they allow such things to deprive them of the light of the Sun of divine bounty? Aside from these things, if these people shun and reject such a divine Soul, such holy Breath, to whom, We wonder, could they cling, to whose face besides His Face could they turn? Yea—“All have a quarter of the Heavens to which they turn.” 1 We have shown thee these two ways; walk thou the way thou choosest. This verily is the truth, and after truth there remaineth naught but error.

Amongst the proofs demonstrating the truth of this Revelation is this, that in every age and Dispensation, whenever the invisible Essence was revealed in the person of His Manifestation, certain souls, obscure and detached from all worldly entanglements, would seek illumination from the Sun of Prophethood and Moon of divine guidance, and would attain unto the divine Presence. For this reason, the divines of the age and those possessed of wealth, would scorn and scoff at these people. Even as He hath revealed concerning them that erred: “Then said the chiefs of His people who believed not, ‘We see in Thee but a man like ourselves; and we see not any who have followed Thee except our meanest ones of hasty judgment, nor see we any excellence in you above ourselves: nay, we deem you liars.’” 2 They caviled at those holy Manifestations, and protested saying: “None hath followed you except the abject amongst us, those who are worthy of no attention.” Their aim was to show that no one amongst the learned, the wealthy, and the renowned believed in them. By this and similar proofs they sought to demonstrate the falsity of Him that speaketh naught but the truth.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

In this most resplendent Dispensation, however, this most mighty Sovereignty, a number of illumined divines, of men of consummate learning, of doctors of mature wisdom, have attained unto His Court, drunk the cup of His divine Presence, and been invested with the honour of His most excellent favour. They have renounced, for the sake of the Beloved, the world and all that is therein. We will mention the names of some of them, that perchance it may strengthen the faint-hearted, and encourage the timorous.

Among them was Mullá Ḥusayn, who became the recipient of the effulgent glory of the Sun of divine Revelation. But for him, God would not have been established upon the seat of His mercy, nor ascended the throne of eternal glory. Among them also was Siyyid Yaḥyá, that unique and peerless figure of his age,

Mullá Muḥammad ‘Alíy-i-Zanjání

Mullá ‘Alíy-i-Bastamí

Mullá Sa’íd-i-Barfurúshí

Mullá Ni’matu’lláh-i-Mázindarání

Mullá Yúsúf-i-Ardibílí

Mullá Mihdíy-i-Khú’í

Siyyid Ḥusayn-i-Turshízí

Mullá Mihdíy-i-Kandí

Mullá Báqir

Mullá ‘Abdu’l-Kháliq-i-Yazdí

Mullá ‘Alíy-i-Baraqání

and others, well nigh four hundred in number, whose names are all inscribed upon the “Guarded Tablet” of God.

All these were guided by the light of that Sun of divine Revelation, confessed and acknowledged His truth. Such was their faith, that most of them renounced their substance and kindred, and cleaved to the good-pleasure of the All-Glorious. They laid down their lives for their Well-Beloved, and surrendered their all in His path. Their breasts were made targets for the darts of the enemy, and their heads adorned the spears of the infidel. No land remained which did not drink the blood of these embodiments of detachment, and no sword that did not bruise their necks. Their deeds, alone, testify to the truth of their words. Doth not the testimony of these holy souls, who have so gloriously risen to offer up their lives for their Beloved that the whole world marvelled at the manner of their sacrifice, suffice the people of this day? Is it not sufficient witness against the faithlessness of those who for a trifle betrayed their faith, who bartered away immortality for that which perisheth, who gave up the Kawthar of the divine Presence for salty springs, and whose one aim in life is to usurp the property of others? Even as thou dost witness how all of them have busied themselves with the vanities of the world, and have strayed far from Him Who is the Lord, the Most High.

Be fair: Is the testimony of those acceptable and worthy of attention whose deeds agree with their words, whose outward behaviour conforms with their inner life? The mind is bewildered at their deeds, and the soul marvelleth at their fortitude and bodily endurance. Or is the testimony of these faithless souls who breathe naught but the breath of selfish desire, and who lie imprisoned in the cage of their idle fancies, acceptable? Like the bats of darkness, they lift not their heads from their couch except to pursue the transient things of the world, and find no rest by night except as they labour to advance the aims of their sordid life. Immersed in their selfish schemes, they are oblivious of the divine Decree. In the day-time they strive with all their soul after worldly benefits, and in the night-season their sole occupation is to gratify their carnal desires. By what law or standard could men be justified in cleaving to the denials of such petty-minded souls, and in ignoring the faith of them that have renounced, for the sake of the good-pleasure of God, their life, and substance, their fame and renown, their reputation and honour?” Baha’u’llah, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 220–225

Is it true that Baha'u'llah is the 'Lord of Lords' and that he is the sender of all prophets? - Quora

 

[samtonga43]

Jesus is cannot be fully human if Jesus is fully divine, and Jesus cannot be fully divine if Jesus is fully human, not according to the definition of fully:
Fully: completely or entirely; to the furthest extent. fully means - Google Search But perhaps you mean something else? Moving right along…..

LOL! How odd. Did you really have to resort to Google to find the meaning of ‘fully’? The Trinity is about spiritual reality, not definitions.

Each nature is full and complete — I’m not sure what that means but Jesus is only God in a sense that He manifests God, as the fullness of God did not incarnate and become a man. In other words, all of God did not become the man Jesus. God remains in His own high place separate from Jesus.

Never. Jesus is God incarnate. He came to do for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Jesus does not have all the attributes of God and that is one way we know that Jesus is not God.

Fully God, fully Man. This is supra-rational, Tb. Only the Holy Spirit can help us sense this Truth.
QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 7157675, member: 63455"]

The attributes that are unique to God: Only God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes. [/QUOTE]
Correct.
Nobody
Except God.

God sends His Manifestations such as Jesus who reflect all of His attributes,

No mirror, no reflection, no manifestation.
God Incarnate.

Citing (Matthew 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29) was a rather pathetic attempt to prove Jesus knows everything, as not one of those verses demonstrates that Jesus knows everything.

Tell me, Tb – what do you think these verses demonstrate?

How do any of these verses say Jesus is everywhere, which means omnipresent?

“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” What would you say this verse means, Tb? Read (past tense) in context, of course.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. All power to do what?

To calm the storm. Can't you read?

Jesus had all power to speak for God. This is Cherry-picking verses and reading then out of context.

Tb, you have shown over and over again that you don’t know what Biblical context means. But let’s try something: What is the context in this case?

13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
What the hell do any of these verses have to do with Jesus being all-powerful? The answer is NOTHING.

Please calm down, Tb. I understand that you can’t /don’t want to see what most Christians see. Maybe one day…

 

[samtonga43]

I was looking to find out where these quotes came from and I WILL get to the bottom of it...

Why not do what you usually do -- go to your friend Uncle Google.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not do what you usually do -- go to your friend Uncle Google.

Do you have any better suggestions, perhaps the public library?
Where did you get those quotes that allegedly represent what Baha'u'llah said?

 

[Truthseeker]

Edited to add:


"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)
And what’s more the B,man created ALL Gods!!
"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree” (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib , vol. 2, p. 255 [citing Baha'u'llah])

"There is no God but me the lonely, the imprisoned." (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 1, no. 39, p. 226.)
And what’s more the B,man created ALL Gods!!
"All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree” (Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib , vol. 2, p. 255 [citing Baha'u'llah])

I don't know where you got that stuff, but Baha'u'llah does say that in one sense any Manifestation can call Himself God as He perfectly represents all of God's attributes. He is also God's servant in another sense. In fact he can say He is God because He is God's complete servant.

You are being very disrespectful and sarcastic by calling Baha'u'llah B,man. Is that very loving to Trailblazer?