Jesus Failed Right?

[Shadow Wolf]

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
dis·ci·ple
/dəˈsīp(ə)l/
noun
noun: disciple; plural noun: disciples
a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles

Try something actually Church related.

Apostles vs. Disciples: Clearing the Confusion | Christian Pure

Discover the truth behind the Apostles vs. Disciples debate. Uncover the real difference between these influential figures in this thought-provoking article.

www.christianpure.com

The word "disciple" comes from the Latin word "discipulus," meaning "learner" or "pupil." In the context of the Bible, a disciple refers to a follower of Jesus who voluntarily chooses to learn from him and adhere to his teachings. This includes listening and observing, imitating his way of life, and applying his teachings to their own lives.

On the other hand, the term "apostle" originates from the Greek word "apostolos," which means "one who is sent out" or "messenger." In the Bible, an apostle specifically refers to someone chosen by Jesus to spread the good news of the gospel and establish the early Christian church. Apostles are given the authority to perform miracles and to lead and shepherd the newly formed Christian community.

If one of your friends denies you and another betrays you, you don't that as a failure of your friendship?

Jesus said it was going to happen though. How is that a failure on him? As for the betrayal, it had to happen. In the Gospel of Judas we are given a story where Jesus approaches Judas and tells him that he's the only one who can be trusted to actually go through with it. But, again this wasn't a failure as even if that story isn't true it means Jesus deliberately chose Judas to fulfill that role because, again, it was something that had to happen.

Yes he was treated normally by the people of Israel. Not as the messenger he claimed to be.

He was regarded as a spiritual teacher and healer, and drew the ire of Rome enough to get himself executed. Whoever the story is based on wasn't really being treated like everybody else.

Sorry, you're right. I should have said he came for the "people of Israel" most of whom rejected him.

Yup. And still in the beginning it was primarily a Jewish sect.

Yes, were is this church of Peter. Were are the teachings of Peter? Peter who Paul call out as a hypocrite. Peter who withdrew from Paul and the gentiles and kept to the Jews. Were now are the Jewish followers of Peter? Peter, who Jesus claimed would be the rock of his church. Where are they now? Where is this church of Peter? Where are the teachings of Peter. Peter was just another failure of Jesus. Peter turned out to be not so good at his job either.

Actually there is a tradition of Peter being the first Pope, and the "rock" upon which the Church was built by Jesus' grace. (Matt. 16:18)

What the Early Church Believed: Peter as Pope

The earliest Christians believed Jesus made Saint Peter the first pope. Read what they had to say about this ancient teaching.

www.catholic.com

This idea that it's somehow a failure seems goofy at best. For about two thousand years now the guy has had an extremely powerful religion that revolves around him that has guided slaves, commoners, nobles and kings alike. It's inspired art and science. Acts of great malevolence and benevolence. He has so deeply moved people he has even inspired literacy movements so people could read the Bible.
What have you done to compare?

 

[Nakosis]

Try something actually Church related.

Apostles vs. Disciples: Clearing the Confusion | Christian Pure

Discover the truth behind the Apostles vs. Disciples debate. Uncover the real difference between these influential figures in this thought-provoking article.

www.christianpure.com

As previously pointed out my use of the word was not wrong. However if you want to stand on semantics instead of the point of the actual argument, no skin off my teeth.

Jesus said it was going to happen though. How is that a failure on him? As for the betrayal, it had to happen. In the Gospel of Judas we are given a story where Jesus approaches Judas and tells him that he's the only one who can be trusted to actually go through with it. But, again this wasn't a failure as even if that story isn't true it means Jesus deliberately chose Judas to fulfill that role because, again, it was something that had to happen.

I see so Judas was just a puppet with no will of his own. I suppose Jesus couldn't depend on Judas to act on his own volition.

He was regarded as a spiritual teacher and healer, and drew the ire of Rome enough to get himself executed. Whoever the story is based on wasn't really being treated like everybody else.

When did Jesus draw the ire of Rome. Seems the execution was does to appease the folk Jesus claimed to have come to gather, the people of Israel.

Yup. And still in the beginning it was primarily a Jewish sect.

Yes, didn't last did it.

Actually there is a tradition of Peter being the first Pope, and the "rock" upon which the Church was built by Jesus' grace. (Matt. 16:18)

What the Early Church Believed: Peter as Pope

The earliest Christians believed Jesus made Saint Peter the first pope. Read what they had to say about this ancient teaching.

www.catholic.com

Yes, the Pope claiming his authority came from Peter without actually proving it. Biased source.

This idea that it's somehow a failure seems goofy at best. For about two thousand years now the guy has had an extremely powerful religion that revolves around him that has guided slaves, commoners, nobles and kings alike. It's inspired art and science. Acts of great malevolence and benevolence. He has so deeply moved people he has even inspired literacy movements so people could read the Bible.

If so goofy then why are you here trying to argue his merits? You've spouted the church propaganda. You've done your part.

What have you done to compare?

Lived past age 33.

 

[1213]

...
You not reading the words from Jesus as he didn't write anything down....

They are words of Jesus. You could say the Bible Jesus is not real, but still, the words are words of Jesus, because they are attributed to him. And I have not seen any good reason to believe Jesus is not real.

 

[metis]

Did you know that Christian means a disciple of Jesus?

…The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 11:26

Yes, and some theologians tend to believe that at first it was used as an insult but eventually got adopted in the 2nd century. "Catholic" and "orthodox" were descriptors [universal and truth] then, and in the latter 3rd century the former became the main name used with the latter being used after the Great Schism.

 

[InChrist]

Paul,

Yes as I mentioned Christians usually rely on Paul, not Jesus to support their theology.
Sure Jesus started with the tribe of Israel according to his own words. Who knows how many but were are they now. The majority of Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah even today.
Christianity didn't make much headway until Paul came along. Paul and later Constantine catered Jesus to the pagans. Obviously successfully. Christians nor longer follow Jewish law, which Jesus said he came not to change. There doesn't seem any direct connection to Jesus except for the story of his death on the cross.

Paul changed the law. That is usually who you'll find Christians referring to about their theology.

My perspective according to the scriptures; Saul/ Paul was confronted by Jesus Christ for his persecution of those who were following Christ. Paul was directly commissioned by Jesus to spread the Gospel of grace. Paul did not change the Law, rather he demonstrated that Jesus alone fulfilled the Law, as no other human ever could. Therefore, Jesus Christ alone was and is the only One who can provide forgiveness of sin and eternal life.

 

[siti]

However you know Jews claim the "suffering servant" is the people of Israel themselves.

Of course...but the point is the story of Jesus was composed with this 'prophetic' passage of Hebrew scripture as a key part of the backdrop...that's why it fits so well...and from that POV he was indeed 'meant' to fail in the sense that the very people he came to 'save' were always (in the story) going to take 'no account of him'.

For a Christian of course it was all fulfillment of divinely inspired prophecy that the Jews would disown the very Messiah they had waited for so long. For the rest of us, it simply means the writer(s) of the gospels had the scroll of Isaiah opened to the appropriate section as they composed the tale. Either way, it was part of "God's plan" for Jesus to fail in his mission to rescue the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" from their iniquity...and in that sense, it wasn't really a failure but a fulfillment.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The story of Jesus as a substitute for the punishment of sin is nonsensical, and thus a masochistic failure. As far as justice goes it makes absolutely no sense. An all powerful God has to, by limitation of power and necessity of justice, subject His own supposedly innocent Son to extreme torture and execution by human hands in order to invoke mercy upon all humans. Absolute gibberish! As if an all powerful God must come in human form to endure ritualistic, blood sacrifice to atone for others sins is evidence that the Jesus story is man made and cultish.

The message of punishing the innocent for the deeds of the guilty is completely ridiculous, and a major failure of many humans who buy into this.

The message of becoming a transformed nature of goodness and innocence through fear of God because of hell, and acceptance of Jesus' atonement is the poorest message to send to anyone. Christians have no such moral superiority, authority, and position of credibility. The message is a failure, and torments many who had to endure the story of Jesus.

There's a few good YouTubers who are very knowledgeable about deconstructing from the Christian faith. One is Mindshift that's very well done.

The legal substitution theory is a newer Protestant concept. I agree that it's ghastly. Please see my old thread about Atonement theories for a more comprehensive view:

Atonement theories.

Let's talk Atonement theories. There are many. Which theory do you adhere to? Have you come up with your own? I'm allowing multiple choice on this poll because the theories aren't necessarily mutually exclusive and many denominations and people blend them. I spent some time reading about this...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[PearlSeeker]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

Jesus didn't try to convert Jews. He was trying to prepare them for the coming Kingdom. Yes, he failed as a Jewish Messiah to fulfill the prophecies. No peace on earth...

Paul didn't go by himself. He believed he was sent by Jesus...

Yes, Christians believe that all this was prophesied and God's plan...

Historical Jesus maybe failed but Jesus of faith grew stronger and stronger...

 

[Nakosis]

They are words of Jesus. You could say the Bible Jesus is not real, but still, the words are words of Jesus, because they are attributed to him. And I have not seen any good reason to believe Jesus is not real.

That's fine. It is what Jesus is reported to have said but it is not all Jesus' words. Some of it is people talking about Jesus.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jews and early Christians loathed syncretism with other religions.

Archeological evidence shows that synagogues often had Hellenized imagery including zodiacs. The Temple had graven imagery all over the place. Judaism, contrary to the claims of biblical authority, was never 100% monotheistic. Monotheism is a political ploy, not a reality.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Although Christians encountered pagan religions, they opposed any adopting of foreign beliefs

But people go to Tartarus or Hades, which are not Christian terms.

 

[Unfettered]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

Jesus's mission was to fulfill the Father's promise to make provision for man's redemption from sin and death. Jesus did that. He did not fail.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What have you done to compare?

I’m pretty happy with a life that isn’t as cool as a genocidal maniac.

 

[Comradio251]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

Jesus failed his second coming prophecy too. The NT prophets were saying then that, "he is coming back REALLY soon, guys!" 2,000 years time is an extremely long time to still be waiting for the green light. It's a failed prophecy.

 

[1213]

That's fine. It is what Jesus is reported to have said but it is not all Jesus' words. Some of it is people talking about Jesus.

How do you know and why do you expect anyone to believe that?

 

[1213]

Yes, and some theologians tend to believe that at first it was used as an insult...

Yes, I think that is the case. And perhaps it would be good now to reject that insult and call people disciples of Jesus, if they are.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Jesus's mission was to fulfill the Father's promise to make provision for man's redemption from sin and death. Jesus did that. He did not fail.

How do you know what was his mission?

 

[Unfettered]

How do you know what was his mission?

God revealed it:

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

Ether 3

The brother of Jared sees the finger of the Lord as He touches sixteen stones—Christ shows His spirit body to the brother of Jared—Those who have a perfect knowledge cannot be kept from within the veil—Interpreters are provided to bring the Jaredite record to light.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

"But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself."

2 Nephi 2

Redemption comes through the Holy Messiah—Freedom of choice (agency) is essential to existence and progression—Adam fell that men might be—Men are free to choose liberty and eternal life. About 588–570 B.C.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

"Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works."

3 Nephi 27

Jesus commands that the Church be called in His name—His mission and atoning sacrifice constitute His gospel—Men are commanded to repent and be baptized that they may be sanctified by the Holy Ghost—They are to be even as Jesus is. About A.D. 34–35.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

"For were it not for the redemption which he hath made for his people, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, I say unto you, were it not for this, all mankind must have perished. But behold, the bands of death shall be broken, and the Son reigneth, and hath power over the dead; therefore, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead."

Mosiah 15

How Christ is both the Father and the Son—He will make intercession and bear the transgressions of His people—They and all the holy prophets are His seed—He brings to pass the Resurrection—Little children have eternal life. About 148 B.C.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

There are other revelations I could cite, but these may be adequate to answer the question?

 

[Nakosis]

How do you know and why do you expect anyone to believe that?

Have you ever seen a red letter Bible?
It separates the words claimed to have been said by Jesus from the words of the narrator/others.

 

[Nakosis]

Jesus's mission was to fulfill the Father's promise to make provision for man's redemption from sin and death. Jesus did that. He did not fail.

I was referring specifically to the claim Jesus made about coming for the lost sheep of Israel. He wasn't able to persuade them to his views.