Jesus Failed Right?

[RestlessSoul]

Do you think yourself humble? Is it possible the Baha'i Messenger is not genuine, and you are mistaken in thinking he is?


That's bad luck. It illustrates how you don't understand reasoning skill, and as a result can't recognize it being used.

I don't recognise anything but prejudice being exercised by you. Not all atheists are quite as predictable though, granted.

 

[F1fan]

I don't recognise anything but prejudice being exercised by you.

OK, explain the prejudice you see.

 

[RestlessSoul]

OK, explain the prejudice you see.

If you can't see it in yourself, I doubt I can help you.

 

[F1fan]

If you can't see it in yourself, I doubt I can help you.

OK, you bluffed, I called your bluff, and you had no answer.

Again, skilled thinkers can assess culturally popular ideas that are not fact-based, and atheists present the examples. Theists can't rebut those arguments.

 

[RestlessSoul]

OK, you bluffed, I called your bluff, and you had no answer.

Again, skilled thinkers can assess culturally popular ideas that are not fact-based, and atheists present the examples. Theists can't rebut those arguments.

That’s the story you’re telling yourself is it?

Sounds like an unevidenced belief to me, but if it makes you feel good about yourself…

 

[Spice]

Sure, success for one doesn't necessarily mean beneficial for the rest. Maybe if Jesus had be better at getting his message out this would have been a better place.

We just need to have our priorities properly sorted...Jesus's teachings should always have priority over Paul's. Jesus taught the masses of individuals. Paul taught new leaders of newly established organizations. . .a.k.a. churches. Today, far, far, too many listen to the man behind the pulpit instead of the Spirit in the heart, therefore, in reality, they're followers of Paul, and putting Jesus's name behind the teachings given by Paul that were not meant for the masses.

 

[Kenny]

Didn't take.



Ok, Jesus contradicted himself. Perhaps why Jews did question and continue to question his leadership. At least Paul was consistent.

you completely lost me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ok, but you claimed ignorance was a choice.
If you know nothing, how do you choose whom to listen to about God?
I have heard from many different people claiming knowledge about God.
If you know nothing yourself, how can you yourself verify these claims?

Ignorance is not a choice; but many of us choose to remain in ignorance.
To seek knowledge, we must first acknowledge our ignorance.

Possibly. But the more aware we are of our ignorance, the more humility we aquire. And humility is imo an absolute prerequisite for learning anything at all. And there are always those who know more than we do; always people we can learn from, evemn if they know but little themselves.

There are always many of folks claiming to know more than we do.
Better to listen to those I think who are aware of their own ignorance and continue to question what they themselves believe.

The dilemma is that an ignorant person isn't going to have the skill and ability to discern truth from false dogma. So what you describe is a trap any believer could find themselves in, and it already be too late. Notice atheists have the skill to assess religious dogma and claims, and the wisdom to reject them.

Well this concept was discussed in greater detail as a slept.

Maybe the best way to say it is that to remain ignorant is a choice.

I see we have all been given a rational mind, so in essence none of us have to remain ignorant, we can choose to broaden our understanding of all that is creation. (There are medical exceptions, nature, nurture and education issues)

I see @F1fan comments are the height of ignorance, as they are stuck in a material outlook of the scientific mind, when evidence of the intelligence of our spiritual nature is all around us. We need to embrace both the Spiritual and Scientific approach to life.

Religion without science is superstition and science without religion, is a destroyer of our God given living environment.

True faith is practice of the required society building virtues and morals.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ok, but it seems a bit of a red herring to offer the argument that God couldn't have done this or that because in doing so it would have forced us to love him. So I'm always skeptic when someone bring it up in an argument.

It is OK to be sceptical, but the subject does require study if we do want to know of the possibilities. Every letter and every word has a power beyond our capacity to understand, every word has a creative spirit behind it, words and numbers are much more than words and numbers, they are the cause of creation.

Baha'u'llah has said that it was within his power to utter a single word and all would beleive, that it is a bounty from God that we get the choice.

Say: If it be Our pleasure We shall render the Cause victorious through the power of a single word from Our presence. He is in truth the Omnipotent, the All-Compelling. Should it be God's intention, there would appear out of the forests of celestial might the lion of indomitable strength whose roaring is like unto the peals of thunder reverberating in the mountains. However, since Our loving providence surpasseth all things, We have ordained that complete victory should be achieved through speech and utterance, that Our servants throughout the earth may thereby become the recipients of divine good. This is but a token of God's bounty vouchsafed unto them. Verily thy Lord is the All-Sufficing, the Most Exalted.

-- Bahá'u'lláh, Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 197-198

Imagine, creation by God is the result of knitting together the letters B & E and here we are, our scientific mind, thinking we are the bee's knees of intelligence and we still do not understand the power of just two letters of a 27 letter alphabet, let alone the words and sentences they make when knit together.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If one of your friends denies you and another betrays you, you don't (see) that as a failure of your friendship?

It is not a failure on our part, that it's their failure, they were never a true friend.

This is also reflected in faith, there are true friends and false friends. Tru friends build that friendship on rock.

Jesus gives this in the Metephor of building on solid foundations.

Matthew 7:24-27

Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

To think humanity builds cities on sand, how foolish are we!

Regards Tony

 

[Kenny]

Ok, but it seems a bit of a red herring to offer the argument that God couldn't have done this or that because in doing so it would have forced us to love him. So I'm always skeptic when someone bring it up in an argument.

Maybe we need to back up because as I read this, I think we got a communication short.

God did do things and still isn’t forcing us to love Him, so i lost track of what the point was.

Let me recap because I have lost what the issue was that we are trying to deal with...

The main issue that Jesus came to do was to take care of the issue of sin that separated man from God. God wants a relationship with s and sin was an impediment.. To take care of sin, he had to die which he accomplished.

He did come to preach the message first for the Jewish people.

Making sure that everyone believed him while on this earth was not “the mission”. Did I misunderstand what your point was?

 

[pearl]

Jesus Failed Right?​

Yes, by all human standards, Jesus was a failure.

And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus . . . and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, in the failure of the cross.​

Did Pope Francis Really Say Jesus Was a Failure?

In his recent homily at St. Patrick’s Cathedral, Pope Francis made a comment that some have leapt on as yet another outrage. Allegedly, Pope Francis said that J...

www.catholic.com

 

[Nakosis]

Maybe we need to back up because as I read this, I think we got a communication short.

God did do things and still isn’t forcing us to love Him, so i lost track of what the point was.

Let me recap because I have lost what the issue was that we are trying to deal with...

The main issue that Jesus came to do was to take care of the issue of sin that separated man from God. God wants a relationship with s and sin was an impediment.. To take care of sin, he had to die which he accomplished.

He did come to preach the message first for the Jewish people.

Making sure that everyone believed him while on this earth was not “the mission”. Did I misunderstand what your point was?

So it's not necessary for people to believe in Jesus to benefit from his action?

 

[Kenny]

So it's not necessary for people to believe in Jesus to benefit from his action?

Again, I think I lost where we are coming from and going to so I’m not sure if I will answer this correctly.

You have already benefitted from his actions whether you believe it or not. Your sins are forgiven and God offers His love.

 

[Nakosis]

It is not a failure on our part, that it's their failure, they were never a true friend.

This is also reflected in faith, there are true friends and false friends. Tru friends build that friendship on rock.

Jesus gives this in the Metephor of building on solid foundations.

Matthew 7:24-27

Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

To think humanity builds cities on sand, how foolish are we!

Regards Tony

Ok, however lets get back to the original criticism.
& @Kenny
Jesus stated he came for the lost sheep of Israel.
Did he succeed in this or did he fail?

 

[F1fan]

Well this concept was discussed in greater detail as a slept.

Maybe the best way to say it is that to remain ignorant is a choice.

Where do you think you stand? You admit you don't recognize reasoning, so you have a disadvantage there.

I see we have all been given a rational mind, so in essence none of us have to remain ignorant, we can choose to broaden our understanding of all that is creation.

Humans are capable of reason, but it is a learned skill.

You keep referring to people being ignorant, but you don't say what they are ignorant of. So explain what you mean.

I see @F1fan comments are the height of ignorance, as they are stuck in a material outlook of the scientific mind,

Science studies the material world, so how is a material outlook ignorant?

when evidence of the intelligence of our spiritual nature is all around us.

Explain what "intelligence of our spiritual nature" means, and what facts describe it as a real thing?

We need to embrace both the Spiritual and Scientific approach to life.

Science has tangible and essential benefits, and spiritual practices are helpful and meaningful for some folks, but not necessary. Trying to say spiritual beliefs and practices are needs is not accurate.

Religion without science is superstition and science without religion, is a destroyer of our God given living environment.

This is not accurate. When theists try to inflate the importance of their beliefs it suggests a bit of insecurity at work.

True faith is practice of the required society building virtues and morals.

There is no evidence of this. In fact theocracies are often highly immoral. Morals are an element of character.

 

[siti]

Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

I'm amazed that this discussion has gone on for six pages without any Bible-believing Christian mentioning Isaiah chapter 53. Of course it was part of God's plan for Jesus to fail - in fact that was the whole point...according to the story - and that part of the story had already been written at least a couple of centuries before the reported birth of the Messiah.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm amazed that this discussion has gone on for six pages without any Bible-believing Christian mentioning Isaiah chapter 53. Of course it was part of God's plan for Jesus to fail - in fact that was the whole point...according to the story - and that part of the story had already been written at least a couple of centuries before the reported birth of the Messiah.

However you know Jews claim the "suffering servant" is the people of Israel themselves.

 

[InChrist]

Ok, however lets get back to the original criticism.
& @Kenny
Jesus stated he came for the lost sheep of Israel.
Did he succeed in this or did he fail?

No, I don’t think He failed. Yes, Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel. Overall, on a national, religious level the leaders of Israel rejected Jesus Christ… but not all Jews did. The first followers of Jesus were all Jews. As well, the scriptures indicate that that God used Israel’s rejection to BLESS the world…

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if they’re being cast away isthe reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Romans 11:11-14


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God areirrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
Romans 11:25-33

 

[Nakosis]

No, I don’t think He failed. Yes, Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel. Overall, on a national, religious level the leaders of Israel rejected Jesus Christ… but not all Jews did. The first followers of Jesus were all Jews. As well, the scriptures indicate that that God used Israel’s rejection to BLESS the world…

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if they’re being cast away isthe reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? Romans 11:11-14


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God areirrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
Romans 11:25-33

Paul,

Yes as I mentioned Christians usually rely on Paul, not Jesus to support their theology.
Sure Jesus started with the tribe of Israel according to his own words. Who knows how many but were are they now. The majority of Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah even today.
Christianity didn't make much headway until Paul came along. Paul and later Constantine catered Jesus to the pagans. Obviously successfully. Christians nor longer follow Jewish law, which Jesus said he came not to change. There doesn't seem any direct connection to Jesus except for the story of his death on the cross.

Paul changed the law. That is usually who you'll find Christians referring to about their theology.